Is Affirmative Action good for Colleges and Universities

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

The one who knows more. THe other things are academically irrelevant.

 

[MrFungus420]

but who do you think the colleges would and should want more. The kid with the 4.0 and the 1600 who's lived his whole life in a sheltered suburbian environment, or the kid with the 3.7 and 1450 who has lived in 5 different countries around the world and has a diverse cultural background?

What does that have to do with affirmative action?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

The one who knows more. THe other things are academically irrelevant.

I've already provided a linking prooving that is not the case.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Affirmative action is nothing but institutionalized racism.

Well said. I came from a poor background and managed to make it through college without taking out loans on the GI Bill, got an excellent education and a decent job and moved on up. If I can do it, anybody can. This country is based on hard work, guns, balls and individualism. To say that universities need "diversity" an Orwellian term for racial quota, is an insult to the dignity and intelligence of all people from diverse backgrounds. I met many brilliant engineers and scientists from all over the world and they came from far worse backgrounds than myself and every American born and raised, yet they made it by having the winner mentality and having balls.

 

[nkgupta80]

but diversity can be a very good thing in universities. Its a pretty amazing experience when you get to meet people with different backgrounds from all over the world. I don't think we need affirmative action at this point, but college admissions will strive for diversity anyways.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Affirmative action is pure racism.

Simple.

Universities are places of learning, and therefore should be able to attract students with the best academic records. Universities should not be social experiments generated by politicians and interest groups.

If you want to see an example the effects of social diversity, watch Big Brother.

The idea that you select people for university, based on their amount of melanin in their skin, or the colour of their eyes, or because their last name sounds different, is abhorent.

Maybe a better solution to fight inequality in university access, would be increasing funding for primary and secondary schools. That way you help everyone.

 

[jallman]

Affirmative action is pure racism.

Simple.

Universities are places of learning, and therefore should be able to attract students with the best academic records. Universities should not be social experiments generated by politicians and interest groups.

If you want to see an example the effects of social diversity, watch Big Brother.

The idea that you select people for university, based on their amount of melanin in their skin, or the colour of their eyes, or because their last name sounds different, is abhorent.

Maybe a better solution to fight inequality in university access, would be increasing funding for primary and secondary schools. That way you help everyone.

:applaud A flawless line of logic. I dont agree that increasing funding is the only fix, but I do feel that helping everyone across the board, providing equal chances, and then leaving the rest for the individual to apply himself or not is the answer. We wont even get into my ideas concerning how we fix the education system in this thread.

 

[nkgupta80]

:applaud A flawless line of logic. I dont agree that increasing funding is the only fix, but I do feel that helping everyone across the board, providing equal chances, and then leaving the rest for the individual to apply himself or not is the answer. We wont even get into my ideas concerning how we fix the education system in this thread.

True, but we can't stop it. The admissions process itself is so biased and subjective.. that taking out race wont matter. College admissions boards want kids from diverse background.. .diverse meaning various cultures, countries, kids with different talents, etc.

 

[George_Washington]

but diversity can be a very good thing in universities. Its a pretty amazing experience when you get to meet people with different backgrounds from all over the world. I don't think we need affirmative action at this point, but college admissions will strive for diversity anyways.

Diversity may sound nice but it's irrelevant when considering who should be accepted into a higher educational institution because you're not there to look all pretty and diverse but to LEARN.

 

[TheBigC]

I spoke to a progressive social worker about this issue once, and my position was similar to all of yours: make the application gender and ethnic-blind and take the best students.

Her response was that the minorities have gotten "the shaft" all their lives, and have come from poor neighborhoods, with rotten school systems, no place to exercise safely, and surrounded by violence and drugs. So when they "compete in the free market" against the kids who grew up with an invisible backpack of privilege (tutors, Kaplan prep, better schools, safe places to exercise and play, achievement-obsessed peers) it's not a fair competition.

Affirmative Action and other initiatives in that spirit attempt to break the cycle by "promoting" people who otherwise would not have gotten there, not because they lack the aptitude, but because they were underdeveloped in their youth. Help them break the cycle, watch them become "successful" and their children will do better. In a couple of generations then there can really be "fair" competition based solely on merit.

Thoughts?

 

[nkgupta80]

Diversity may sound nice but it's irrelevant when considering who should be accepted into a higher educational institution because you're not there to look all pretty and diverse but to LEARN.

sure you're their to learn, diversity shouldn't detracct from the learning process. Imagine if colleges didn't strive for diversity: MIT would be 70% asian, There would be like two cultural clubs, life would become even more mundane with the already crazy workload they got overthere, and meeting new people would be a drag cause you all come from the same rich, hardcore asian families, the guy to girl ratio would be 7:1... etc. You see why colleges want a balanced student population.

If you want to look at it in business terms, they want to attract the best, so they want the best experience to offer.

 

[MrFungus420]

I spoke to a progressive social worker about this issue once, and my position was similar to all of yours: make the application gender and ethnic-blind and take the best students.

Her response was that the minorities have gotten "the shaft" all their lives, and have come from poor neighborhoods, with rotten school systems, no place to exercise safely, and surrounded by violence and drugs. So when they "compete in the free market" against the kids who grew up with an invisible backpack of privilege (tutors, Kaplan prep, better schools, safe places to exercise and play, achievement-obsessed peers) it's not a fair competition.

Did you then ask her if that took into account white children that grow up under those circumstances? If you want to help out people who come from poor areas, then do it fairly. Don't do it based on race. The racial preferences only take into account the race of the person, not whether or not the person comes from a poor and "disadvantaged" background.

If a black child is from a middle or upper class background, they are treated the same way as a black child who grew up in the worst possible economic circumstances. Now you have someone who had all the advantages of the "invisible backpack of priviledge" as a white child, but, they now get the added advantage of affirmative action. And, since there are a limited number of slots, they are directly taking the slots away from the people who need it most.

Affirmative Action and other initiatives in that spirit attempt to break the cycle by "promoting" people who otherwise would not have gotten there, not because they lack the aptitude, but because they were underdeveloped in their youth. Help them break the cycle, watch them become "successful" and their children will do better. In a couple of generations then there can really be "fair" competition based solely on merit.

Thoughts?

There are, essentially, three ways for a black person to be successful. There are sports, music and being a sell-out to your race. The attitude seems to be that if a black person works hard, studies at school and applies themselves, they are no longer "really black", they're a sell-out, an "Uncle Tom". Can you see the problem here? Unless a successful black person is successful because of sports or music, then they are a person to be despised as a traitor to their race.

As long as this attitutde is prevelent, there will be no real improvement, no breaking of the cycle.

 

[TimmyBoy]

There are, essentially, three ways for a black person to be successful. There are sports, music and being a sell-out to your race. The attitude seems to be that if a black person works hard, studies at school and applies themselves, they are no longer "really black", they're a sell-out, an "Uncle Tom". Can you see the problem here? Unless a successful black person is successful because of sports or music, then they are a person to be despised as a traitor to their race.

As long as this attitutde is prevelent, there will be no real improvement, no breaking of the cycle.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! I probably shouldn't laugh. I can just see a brilliant, successful black scientist being called an "Uncle Tom." Actually, I met many brilliant black doctors, scientists and engineers, but admitably, the ones that I met came from Africa and seem to have a different mentality.

According to your world view, if you are an African-American, the only way to be successful, acceptable and cool to other blacks is to be great at football, basketball or be a great rapper. I don't think that is necessarily true. But it does seem that way sometimes.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

I spoke to a progressive social worker about this issue once, and my position was similar to all of yours: make the application gender and ethnic-blind and take the best students.

Her response was that the minorities have gotten "the shaft" all their lives, and have come from poor neighborhoods, with rotten school systems, no place to exercise safely, and surrounded by violence and drugs. So when they "compete in the free market" against the kids who grew up with an invisible backpack of privilege (tutors, Kaplan prep, better schools, safe places to exercise and play, achievement-obsessed peers) it's not a fair competition.

Affirmative Action and other initiatives in that spirit attempt to break the cycle by "promoting" people who otherwise would not have gotten there, not because they lack the aptitude, but because they were underdeveloped in their youth. Help them break the cycle, watch them become "successful" and their children will do better. In a couple of generations then there can really be "fair" competition based solely on merit.

Thoughts?

It is possible to succeed even when you grow up underpriveleged. There are people of color in some of the most powerful positions in the world. It's a matter of personal responsibility and the will to succeed. Only those who are academically qualified should be permitted to enter a university. Admiting someone based soley on race is not only unfair to those that are academically qualified but rejected because their skin isn't dark enough, it creates the impression that those of color don't have to apply themselves because they're going to get a ticket to a university anyway. It breeds a society of ignorance dependant on handouts. The majority of the black community expects to be compensated and given preferential treatment based soley on their race. They don't take personal responsibility or accountability because they form the impression that if they shout loud and long enough and toss around the "r word" enough they're bound to get a free ride.

 

[TheBigC]

It is possible to succeed even when you grow up underpriveleged. There are people of color in some of the most powerful positions in the world.

I'm playing devil's advocate here: to the progressive, that is proof positive of the pervasiveness and power of racism in this country. If it can be done in other parts of the world, where people are also poor, and people are also black, why doesn't it happen as often here? Biologically they are the same, so it must be because of the systematic oppression built into the black experience in this country from day 1. What other non-racist explanation is there?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

I'm playing devil's advocate here: to the progressive, that is proof positive of the pervasiveness and power of racism in this country. If it can be done in other parts of the world, where people are also poor, and people are also black, why doesn't it happen as often here? Biologically they are the same, so it must be because of the systematic oppression built into the black experience in this country from day 1. What other non-racist explanation is there?

The majority of the black community only deny themselves those priveleges. They have every advantage imaginable in the U.S. but they do not utilize them and refuse to be self-reliant because people like Jesse Jackson and organizations like the NAACP are constantly pounding the idea that the world owes them a good life and they shouldn't have to work for it, because of what happened over 200 years ago, in the collective mind of the black community. There are hundreds of self made black men and women in powerful positions in our government and whenever a black person does succeed on their own they're denegrated by Jackson and the NAACP, called traitors, and an "Uncle Tom"

 

[-Demosthenes-]

I think so, because it creates a much diverse school and it gives those in less fortunate areas a chance. Comments welcome! (Flame on)

Assuming that all minorities are somehow poor needy homeless people then sure, but that assumption is very, very racist. There are people of European decent that are poor and homeless and no one cares about them because they're "white".

Affirmative action is nothing but institutionalized racism.

Exactly.

Affirmative action is reverse racism towards European Americans and should absolutely be opposed at all costs.

It's not reverse racism. It is racism. Giving people preferential treatment based on their race is racism.

I'd have to agree with Mrfungus.

So The college admissions boards aren't racist, they just want a balanced university.

Basing people that they let into the college on race is racism.

It's not true, I know people of European decent that are just as smart at math related fields as any Asian I've ever met.

Regardless there may be different tendencies in races. However this is no basis to judge an individual.

I was merely commenting that Asians are brought up with more of an emphasis on study and hard work academically than people of European descent, as a generalization. What were you talking about?

What are you talking about?

but who do you think the colleges would and should want more. The kid with the 4.0 and the 1600 who's lived his whole life in a sheltered suburbian environment, or the kid with the 3.7 and 1450 who has lived in 5 different countries around the world and has a diverse cultural background?

We don't particularly care, as long as it's not based on race.

Diversity may sound nice but it's irrelevant when considering who should be accepted into a higher educational institution because you're not there to look all pretty and diverse but to LEARN.

I agree.

Her response was that the minorities have gotten "the shaft" all their lives, and have come from poor neighborhoods, with rotten school systems, no place to exercise safely, and surrounded by violence and drugs. So when they "compete in the free market" against the kids who grew up with an invisible backpack of privilege (tutors, Kaplan prep, better schools, safe places to exercise and play, achievement-obsessed peers) it's not a fair competition.

Again, saying that all minorities are poor, from poor neighborhood, have rotten school systems, etc. is racist. Some white people are in the same situation. Help the people in the situation, not the people with more of a chemical in their skin.

sure you're their to learn, diversity shouldn't detracct from the learning process. Imagine if colleges didn't strive for diversity: MIT would be 70% asian...

Now that is racist, however "positive" the stereoyype may be.

 

[getinvolved]

Affirmative action is nothing but institutionalized racism.

I think I know where your logic lies when you mkae a statement like this. It can difficult to understand how a policy that favors perhaps a less qualified candidate simply b/c of their race. But, it is also importnat to keep in mind the fact that due to years of oppression, many people who benefit from this policy have started out three steps behind due the limited opportunites offered to them. I think that like any program, affirmative action has some major flaws, but I also think that it's intention must be kept in mind as well.

Affirmative action needs reforms, but calling it "institutionalized racism" disregards it's main objectives.

 

[jallman]

What are you talking about?

Take a look at the entire thread and all the posts, paying special attention to sarcasm and humor...then get back to me if you have any questions.

 

[TheBigC]

I think I know where your logic lies when you mkae a statement like this. It can difficult to understand how a policy that favors perhaps a less qualified candidate simply b/c of their race. But, it is also importnat to keep in mind the fact that due to years of oppression, many people who benefit from this policy have started out three steps behind due the limited opportunites offered to them. I think that like any program, affirmative action has some major flaws, but I also think that it's intention must be kept in mind as well.

Affirmative action needs reforms, but calling it "institutionalized racism" disregards it's main objectives.

I don't have to play devil's advocate anymore, there is now someone to defend that point of view!

 

[-Demosthenes-]

But, it is also importnat to keep in mind the fact that due to years of oppression, many people who benefit from this policy have started out three steps behind due the limited opportunites offered to them. I think that like any program, affirmative action has some major flaws, but I also think that it's intention must be kept in mind as well.

Other people (non-minorities too) start out "three steps behind", what about them? If we just help these people who start out "three steps behind" instead of helping minorities (who aren't all in the "three steps behind" group), won't that remedy the problem without favoring a race?

 

[TheBigC]

Other people (non-minorities too) start out "three steps behind", what about them? If we just help these people who start out "three steps behind" instead of helping minorities (who aren't all in the "three steps behind" group), won't that remedy the problem without favoring a race?

This is why some people (including myself) favor means-based aid. Regardless of what color you are, poor is poor. Class mobility is a very American thing, and if education is the key to upward mobility, then educating the poor is the way to achieve that goal.

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

This is why some people (including myself) favor means-based aid. Regardless of what color you are, poor is poor. Class mobility is a very American thing, and if education is the key to upward mobility, then educating the poor is the way to achieve that goal.

Are you talking increased scholarship funding or replacing the ethnic points system with ecomonmic points system? I hope its the former because, pardon my language, the latter is retarded. Remember that even with Affirmative Action the candidates let in meet the requirements (and NO I cannot say that I am 100% sure on this, but I would assume most colleges don't have to take unqualified students based on race). In an economic points system we would be even more likely to accept underqualified students because, let's face it, schools in poor areas are complete ****. I think rather than overhaul Affirmative Action we should focus on reforming inner-city and underfunded schools to get pre-college education systems back on track. Then we can scrap AA.

 

[TheBigC]

Are you talking increased scholarship funding or replacing the ethnic points system with ecomonmic points system? I hope its the former because, pardon my language, the latter is retarded. Remember that even with Affirmative Action the candidates let in meet the requirements (and NO I cannot say that I am 100% sure on this, but I would assume most colleges don't have to take unqualified students based on race).

But if they're qualified, why is everyone making a fuss? They would have been admitted anyway. They implicitly can't be qualified, otherwise, we'd have no need for AA!

In an economic points system we would be even more likely to accept underqualified students because, let's face it, schools in poor areas are complete ****.

Isn't that the whole point behind AA? Blacks live in poor areas, where their schools are "****", so why aren't they underqualified? That's why AA exists, to promote them in the lottery of life, to paraphrase. If that's not why AA exists, please tell us what else it's there for?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Are you talking increased scholarship funding or replacing the ethnic points system with ecomonmic points system? I hope its the former because, pardon my language, the latter is retarded. Remember that even with Affirmative Action the candidates let in meet the requirements (and NO I cannot say that I am 100% sure on this, but I would assume most colleges don't have to take unqualified students based on race). In an economic points system we would be even more likely to accept underqualified students because, let's face it, schools in poor areas are complete ****. I think rather than overhaul Affirmative Action we should focus on reforming inner-city and underfunded schools to get pre-college education systems back on track. Then we can scrap AA.

I agree that the innercity schools need an overhall however I don't think the system should continue to accept the academically lacking because of their race while turning away the academically qualified because their skin isn't dark enough. You're punishing those who made something of themselves and worked hard to achieve good academic standing and rewarding those who have no academic bearing. It's ridiculous.