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Is a Completely Secular Government Really so Bad?

Is a secultar government really so bad?

  • yes

    Votes: 9 23.7%

  • no

    Votes: 29 76.3%
  • Total voters
    38
Deegan said:
And nothing has interupted that process, certainly not a word on our currency, not a nativity scene, or a Christmas tree in front of a government building, none of these things. It's only a few, who obviously have nothing better to do, that want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. And majority does rule, you can see that in our government everyday, like when they decided to put "In God We Trust" on our currency, or made "Christmas" a federal holiday, or when they swore in the last president, and had him place his hand on the bible. These things have not hurt anyone, they have done the opposite, made this the greatest country in the world, as well as a super power. As far as I am concerned, we must be doing something right in our short 200 years.
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Just as a note, the whole president swearing in on a Bible thing started because George Washington brought his OWN Bible to his inauguration.
 
Stace said:
OK, I see your point....I guess what I meant is someone shouldn't use their faith to the extent of thinking "Well, this is wrong 'cause it says so in the Bible" or something like that, and then voting accordingly....they should stick to the legal aspects of it.
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They should indeed use their faith, just as they do in their morning prayer, they pray for the wisdom, the strength, the knowledge to do the right thing.
 
Deegan said:
And nothing has interupted that process, certainly not a word on our currency, not a nativity scene, or a Christmas tree in front of a government building, none of these things. It's only a few, who obviously have nothing better to do, that want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. And majority does rule, you can see that in our government everyday, like when they decided to put "In God We Trust" on our currency, or made "Christmas" a federal holiday, or when they swore in the last president, and had him place his hand on the bible. These things have not hurt anyone, they have done the opposite, made this the greatest country in the world, as well as a super power. As far as I am concerned, we must be doing something right in our short 200 years.
Click to expand...

Why the need for government endorsement of your religion? What if instead it was "In no God we trust", No religious holidays allowed, and an Atheistic oath? You'd be whining up a storm and Atheists could just claim that it's YOU making a mountain out of a molehill. The government needs to stay out of religion and leave that up to us, the individual to decide on for ourselves. I'd like you to prove that putting "In God we Trust" on our dollars and making Christmas a federal holiday made this country the greatest. Especially since Christmas wasn't made a federal holiday until 1870 (almost a hundered year without Christmas recognized by the government! No!!) and that phrase wasn't put onto our dollars until the 1950's (You mean we weren't struck down for almost 150 years!?). Not to mention Theodore Roosevelt didn't swear on the Bible, yet the US didn't come to a crashing halt (Not to mention it is NOT a requirement). Looks like we doing just fine without having the government endorse religion.
 
Deegan said:
They should indeed use their faith, just as they do in their morning prayer, they pray for the wisdom, the strength, the knowledge to do the right thing.
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Praying for yourself before you go to work is a completely different matter than using what you believe in, spiritually speaking, to guide the decisions that affect people that don't believe in the same things you do, spiritually speaking. Just because the Bible says it is/isn't ok to do something, that doesn't mean EVERYONE has to follow that. Votes concerning matters that affect everyone need to be guided by the law and what is best and right for ALL concerned.
 
Columbusite said:
Already did this, see post #39 on pg. 4. That source says not a word on Arlington.
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I wasn't referring to Arlington when I posted that.. I was providing the source that you asked for regarding atheist groups wanting religious symbols off government property, which I did.

And Mike Rivers did include Arlington when he stated their agenda.
 
Columbusite said:
Why the need for government endorsement of your religion? What if instead it was "In no God we trust", No religious holidays allowed, and an Atheistic oath? You'd be whining up a storm and Atheists could just claim that it's YOU making a mountain out of a molehill. The government needs to stay out of religion and leave that up to us, the individual to decide on for ourselves. I'd like you to prove that putting "In God we Trust" on our dollars and making Christmas a federal holiday made this country the greatest. Especially since Christmas wasn't made a federal holiday until 1870 (almost a hundered year without Christmas recognized by the government! No!!) and that phrase wasn't put onto our dollars until the 1950's (You mean we weren't struck down for almost 150 years!?). Not to mention Theodore Roosevelt didn't swear on the Bible, yet the US didn't come to a crashing halt (Not to mention it is NOT a requirement). Looks like we doing just fine without having the government endorse religion.
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Of course those are not the only things that made this country great, how ridiculous to even attempt that argument. It was indeed the combined faith, the good will of our churches, and the important lessons taught there, that made us great. It certainly was not a group of selfish atheists that made this country great, they are only out to destroy the hard work of the faithful many. They will continue to fight to remove religion from the view of everyone, I do not believe they will stop until they are no longer reminded of their Godless lives. They feel empty, they feel ashamed, and they don't want to be reminded, no one did that to them, they did it to themselves.
 
The Real McCoy said:
I wasn't referring to Arlington when I posted that.. I was providing the source that you asked for regarding atheist groups wanting religious symbols off government property, which I did.

And Mike Rivers did include Arlington when he stated their agenda.
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Already debunked the Arlington situation. From what I gather he wasn't aware of the cemetery in Arlington and that they were headstones, not crosses as memorials. He should have just claimed ignorance instead of talking about something he wasn't knowledgeable on. As far as what is going on in Utah American Atheists is absolutely correct. You should read those links in my last post since I'm just repeating the same things.
 
hiker said:
I already posted what I think about that in another thread

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=164626&postcount=30

And for the last time I plan on mentioning it, you can't remove every reference to god from our society or the government formed by the people of our society. Its not going to happen. Nobody said you have to believe in anything, but the majority does believe. And the majority rules in our version of democracy. The countries of this world where a minority rules over the majority are generally good cases in point of why we have a superior system. Now I understand that you believe any mention of a diety or a religion inside of our government and institutions is illegal. I want to know why you believe that is so, when the facts speak otherwise? If the mention of god on money, in courts, etc. is illegal then this is certainly news to me. I guess that makes my cash illegal to own, and swearing in a witness is illegal. Heck, Congress and the Supreme Court itself are in violation of this law you came up with every morning when they come together for an opening prayer.
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Did I not already address the prayer in Congress issue????????? Go back and read..

If I used the term "Illegal" I apologize, I meant, Unconstitutional.
As placing references to god on money, in the US Flag Code, in courthouses etc, was unconstitutional in the first place, reguardless of WHO the "Majority" of people in the united states are.

In a republic like ours, Individual Minority rights are a priority... don't believe it? Why does it take one man to hang a jury???
Yes, in some instances the majority will win, say.. elections, and voting on stuff in the house.... It would take forever for us to ALL decide on ONE man to be in office, and definately take forever for all those congress people to agree on every piece of legislation 100%

So, I say again, we are not completely secular until the government stops trying to come up with ways to keep god in our schools ("Intelligent Design"/Prayer/etc.), until courthouses STOP TRYING to put up more and more references to religion in the courhouses/ STOP TRYING to put up Manger scenes and Menorahs (And remember Im trying to convert to Judaism, this has nothing to do with me being an Athiest full of angst) on our government property.

Alot of people accept that god has no place in our schools and all that other junk, I agree it is difficult to do these things since as a society we have been primarily "Christianized" but, it IS unconstitutional, and therefore, shouldn't be happening... I can even accept what is already been done, but the constant attempts and putting even more religious symbols up and putting god into our Science Textbooks as a "Science" is getting out of hand.
 
Deegan said:
Of course those are not the only things that made this country great, how ridiculous to even attempt that argument.
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Yet that won't stop you.

"And majority does rule, you can see that in our government everyday, like when they decided to put "In God We Trust" on our currency, or made "Christmas" a federal holiday, or when they swore in the last president, and had him place his hand on the bible. These things have not hurt anyone, they have done the opposite, made this the greatest country in the world, as well as a super power."

It was indeed the combined faith, the good will of our churches, and the important lessons taught there, that made us great. It certainly was not a group of selfish atheists that made this country great, they are only out to destroy the hard work of the faithful many. They will continue to fight to remove religion from the view of everyone, I do not believe they will stop until they are no longer reminded of their Godless lives.
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No one, I repeat no one is trying to remove religion from this country. You wish non-believers were out to get you since too many Christians apparantly have no other purpose in their lives.

Having a secular government in no way impedes your right to practice your faith.

They feel empty, they feel ashamed, and they don't want to be reminded, no one did that to them, they did it to themselves.
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Hahaha. :lol: OK, sure. Live in your fantasy world. I suggest you get out more. Chicago is a nice city and I'm sure there are plenty of Atheists there who would dispell your over-the-top stereotypes if only you'd be open-minded.

Now I'll ask you again, why the need for the government to endorse your religion?
 
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Columbusite said:
Yet that won't stop you.

"And majority does rule, you can see that in our government everyday, like when they decided to put "In God We Trust" on our currency, or made "Christmas" a federal holiday, or when they swore in the last president, and had him place his hand on the bible. These things have not hurt anyone, they have done the opposite, made this the greatest country in the world, as well as a super power."



No one, I repeat no one is trying to remove religion from this country. You wish non-believers were out to get you since too many Christians apparantly have no other purpose in their lives.

Having a secular government in no way impedes your right to practice your faith.



Hahaha. :lol: OK, sure. Live in your fantasy world.

Now I'll as you again, why the need for the government to endorse your religion?
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You're just arguing with yourself sir, chasing your own tail, if you will. I voted no in this poll, I believe we should be secular, we are secular, and I am completely satisfied with the results. I don't feel the need to have my government endorse my religion, endorse a God, yes, my religion, no. I have great purpose in my life, a great job, wonderful wife, kids, and the need to help others, as many as I possibly can. What has the average atheist done for anyone lately, probably sued someone, or berated a Christian? I would like to see all religions advertised, so to speak. If we continue down this road, and treat this as something shameful, something we should hide, and not share, I fear it will disappear from our society, and it has been.
 
Deegan said:
You're just arguing with yourself sir, chasing your own tail, if you will. I voted no in this poll, I believe we should be secular, we are secular, and I am completely satisfied with the results. I don't feel the need to have my government endorse my religion, endorse a God, yes, my religion, no. I have great purpose in my life, a great job, wonderful wife, kids, and the need to help others, as many as I possibly can. What has the average atheist done for anyone lately, probably sued someone, or berated a Christian? I would like to see all religions advertised, so to speak. If we continue down this road, and treat this as something shameful, something we should hide, and not share, I fear it will disappear from our society, and it has been.
Click to expand...

But religion IS supposed to be a private matter, NOT something to be advertised and paraded about. Individuals are perfectly capable of choosing for themselves what faith they should practice, we don't need others trying to "share" their religion. When you say "share" like that, it brings to mind church members knocking on my door either at the crack of dawn or late enough in the evening to make me grouchy, inviting me to visit their congregation, and all I can think is...."If I wanted to visit your congregation, I would have done it by now".

We cannot, as a country, endorse God, because there's just too many of us out there that don't believe in God - specifically the one that's capitalized, there are many of us that believe in some form of a god or higher power, but don't think the God you speak of is it.
 
Deegan said:
You're just arguing with yourself sir, chasing your own tail, if you will. I voted no in this poll, I believe we should be secular, we are secular, and I am completely satisfied with the results. I don't feel the need to have my government endorse my religion, endorse a God, yes, my religion, no. I have great purpose in my life, a great job, wonderful wife, kids, and the need to help others, as many as I possibly can. What has the average atheist done for anyone lately, probably sued someone, or berated a Christian? I would like to see all religions advertised, so to speak. If we continue down this road, and treat this as something shameful, something we should hide, and not share, I fear it will disappear from our society, and it has been.
Click to expand...

You know.. government buildings is only a small part of society...

If ANYONE, ACLU, Athiest Groups... Period... Tries to remove religion from privately owned and Corporate businesses and keep us from decorating or building houses of worship, I will fight that in any way that I can.

I don't understand what is so wrong about asking the government to go by the rules it set for itself. You know... I'll even retract what I said earlier, I don't care about the money or the pledge, or anything that has already happened... but the government IS CONTINUING to try to place god everywhere, even in the current year. THey should know by now that they are wrong, and they should just stop.

You can have your "Public Displays" of religion if you need it, I seriously doubt the Jews need it, even with persecution, holocaust, and forced conversion (Inquisition/Roman Catholic Church) they have managed to live on, how often do you see Judaism everywhere if not a Judaica store? Or a Kosher Mart?
Depending on where you live, its noticable, or non-existant, but never over-abundant.......Jews don't need to have thier religion flaunted in the public arena, and just maybe one day, Christians will realize this too and actually go by the teachings of thier christ.

Point is, as mentioned earlier, VERY FEW Athiests are angry because of religion in the "public square", they just want the government to do its job and follow its own guidelines, and I agree when it comes to that.

The others, who think religion should be reserved for church and home ONLY, even though it will still survive that way.... they can kiss my hairy white ass.
 
Deegan said:
You're just arguing with yourself sir, chasing your own tail, if you will. I voted no in this poll, I believe we should be secular, we are secular, and I am completely satisfied with the results. I don't feel the need to have my government endorse my religion, endorse a God, yes, my religion, no. I have great purpose in my life, a great job, wonderful wife, kids, and the need to help others, as many as I possibly can. What has the average atheist done for anyone lately, probably sued someone, or berated a Christian? I would like to see all religions advertised, so to speak. If we continue down this road, and treat this as something shameful, something we should hide, and not share, I fear it will disappear from our society, and it has been.
Click to expand...

So you're saying we don't need "In god we Trust" on our money, "under God" in our pledge, or Crosses put up as memorials by the state since a cross can be put up for the individual on a grave. You're the one saying taking religion out of government is a bad thing, not me. No one is treating religion as something to hide, I have no idea where you are getting all this, or do you listen to James Dobson? Reality isn't meshing with your notion that religion "will disappear from society".
 
hiker said:
Simply put, the argument is needless. We are a secular nation. Always have been, always will be. Just because a leader has his faith, and doesn't mind telling people about it, that does not mean he is imposing anything on you. That just means that the government mirrors its citizens, which is how things work in a representative democracy. I am obviously referring to Bush here, but I distinctly remember Pres. Clinton attending services regularly and doing his best to make sure everyone knew he was there. I don't remember anyone asking this type of question way back then, I guess it takes a Republican president to make some folks believe we are now living in a neo-theocracy. Wrong. This is a secular government of a religious nation. Be proud of the founding fathers for looking out for people of other religions and us nonbelievers. And be happy you don't live in Iran, then you would know what a non-secular government really looks like.
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Questions of religion and government weren't asked when Clinton was carrying his extra-heavy duty large print bible because no one ever believed it was anything but a prop to con the rubes. He was a fraud, so no one took his new found religion seriously. Not even him.

The issue comes up now in large part because it's thought to be a useful political wedge to keep Democrats from jumping ship and to illustrate the superstitious nature of the "Right", and it paints the entire "Right" with a good heavy coat of Religious Kook Paint.

Of course any nation is better off as a secular nation. In the ideal case, a secular nation can have rational laws and the origin of those laws can be traced back to first causes and reasoned discussion on methods.

In the real world not even a secular state can have rational laws. Laws are made principally to benefit the few, and if that reason became known there'd be a revolution every week.

By definition, no religion-based state can have rational laws. Religion is an excercise in un-reason.
 
I think we have all made our points, I enjoyed the debate, but I fear we are just going around in circles at this point. I appreciate everyones views, and we will just all have to agree to disagree, as I don't see anyone giving in anytime soon. Thanks again for the debate, and you folks have Merry Christmas, or whatever it is you celebrate, or don't celebrate.
 
Deegan said:
I think we have all made our points, I enjoyed the debate, but I fear we are just going around in circles at this point. I appreciate everyones views, and we will just all have to agree to disagree, as I don't see anyone giving in anytime soon. Thanks again for the debate, and you folks have Merry Christmas, or whatever it is you celebrate, or don't celebrate.
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Okay, I don't see how we are going in circles, but if you are out of ammo, then I appretiate you backing down.

Anyone else see a reason why the government should be allowed to continue trying to put god in school and in our courhouses?

Like I addressed before, I don't even mind what is already around, MOST people who are for the constitution can deal with it... Its the blatent atempts to put god in the classroom and all over the walls of the courthouse that bother me, because we know better now.
 
Deegan said:
I have a mission for you my friend, you go ask a man to die for his country, without a tradition, without a God, without a pride in his/her country, you go ask anyone to die for that! The fact is we need some faith, we need some pride, we need a lot of things! The bull***** people like you offer just won't cut it, and we certainly wouldn't be where we are today with this liberal idea of the United States of America. Who would possibly fight for this doomed place you reside, no one, and that is the reason we fight you to the death, you kill hope, you're a f**king diesease that must be eliminated!

I'm sorry, this just really bothers me, I may be over reaching, but this new America really sucks. This generation would have lost the war in Europe hands down, I believe this to be the truth. I think we are doomed, and it's not because of our past, but because of the lazy, ungrateful nation we have raised.
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Why ask anyone to die for their country? Patton said it best, the goal is to make the other SOB die for his country.

And if dying is needed to save family and children, does pumping the victim full of false mythology serve any purpose except to make it easier for him to agree to go?

This generation hopefully would have let Europe fight it's own wars and stayed out completely. Following that path in WWI would have almost certainly precluded a WWII.

Can you please be more specific. If we're a ing disease, are we syphillis, gonorhea, HIV, or herpes? Possibly just a little chlamydia, perhaps?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Questions of religion and government weren't asked when Clinton was carrying his extra-heavy duty large print bible because no one ever believed it was anything but a prop to con the rubes. He was a fraud, so no one took his new found religion seriously. Not even him.

The issue comes up now in large part because it's thought to be a useful political wedge to keep Democrats from jumping ship and to illustrate the superstitious nature of the "Right", and it paints the entire "Right" with a good heavy coat of Religious Kook Paint.

Of course any nation is better off as a secular nation. In the ideal case, a secular nation can have rational laws and the origin of those laws can be traced back to first causes and reasoned discussion on methods.

In the real world not even a secular state can have rational laws. Laws are made principally to benefit the few, and if that reason became known there'd be a revolution every week.

By definition, no religion-based state can have rational laws. Religion is an excercise in un-reason.
Click to expand...

To my credit, I haven't criticized Bush for swearing on the Bible, since with the exception of Roosevelt every other president has done this and there is so much that merits criticism I am very critical of Clinton and Democrats for not standing up for gay marriage. Why don't they just say they are standing up for the Constitution and that it applies to all citizens? Instead they're not for it, but they're not all that against it if it's civil unions instead. Even then they can't seem to make a collective stand. That's why I vote Libertarian when they're available. They seem to have a better grasp of the Constitution than both Republicans and, sadly, Democrats.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Questions of religion and government weren't asked when Clinton was carrying his extra-heavy duty large print bible because no one ever believed it was anything but a prop to con the rubes. He was a fraud, so no one took his new found religion seriously. Not even him.

The issue comes up now in large part because it's thought to be a useful political wedge to keep Democrats from jumping ship and to illustrate the superstitious nature of the "Right", and it paints the entire "Right" with a good heavy coat of Religious Kook Paint.

Of course any nation is better off as a secular nation. In the ideal case, a secular nation can have rational laws and the origin of those laws can be traced back to first causes and reasoned discussion on methods.

In the real world not even a secular state can have rational laws. Laws are made principally to benefit the few, and if that reason became known there'd be a revolution every week.

By definition, no religion-based state can have rational laws. Religion is an excercise in un-reason.
Click to expand...


Umm... why is this turning into a debate over liberal vs conservative and Clinton vs. Bush?????

That is not what the thread is about, I ask you to stay on topic or argue of thier junk elsewhere.
 
Caine said:
Umm... why is this turning into a debate over liberal vs conservative and Clinton vs. Bush?????

That is not what the thread is about, I ask you to stay on topic or argue of thier junk elsewhere.
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I addressed a specific point in a specific post then addressed the topic posted. If you wish to requlate posts that thoroughly, then I recommend your establish an ISP in China.

They're trying to be a secular government, BTW.:2razz:
 
Australianlibertarian says,"Secularism protects all religious beliefs, because it states that government should not be mandating or getting involved with religion, and that government should not make laws based on religious theory."

But government is involved with religion they always have been. Why do we put our hands on the Bible in our courts of law?
In fact every President has taken his oath of office with his left hand on the Bible and concludes that the oath with these words: “So help me God.”?
His hand is on the Bible, not the Torah, or the Koran. Don’t you find that odd?

It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society that immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted in 1777 to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation. Interesting isn’t it? Not the Koran or the Torah....the Bible. Hmmmmmmmmmm Wasn’t the CC a body of representatives appointed by the legislatures of the Thirteen Colonies?


Patrick Henry wrote in 1776. "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

Hmmm

Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible: "I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."
Jefferson??????? Did he cite the Koran, or the Torah.....? Does that statement sound secular to you? Today the liberal doesnt want to hear the word, faith, God, Jesus....If a politician says or does anythign religious the press is all voer them. They cant practice thwir faith really. How would Jefferson be taken today? The liberals would hang him.

In fact these are some things Jefferson did while in office as president.
They are compiled by Mark A. Beliles. Look him up on the internet.

He promoted legislative and military chaplains.
Established a national seal using a biblical symbol (Would this be from the Torah or Koran?)
Included the word God in our national motto.
Established official days of fasting and prayer-on a state level
Punished Sabbath breakers
Punished marriages contrary to biblical law
Punished irreverent soldiers
Protected the property of churches
Required oaths be phrased by the words "So help me God" and be sworn on the Bible
Granted land to Christian churches to reach the Indians
Granted land to Christian schools
Allowed government property and facilities to be used for worship. (Wow…….does this violate separation of church and state?
Used the Bible and nondenominational religious instruction in public schools.
Was involved with three different school districts, and the plan that required that the bible be taught. (Ah which book would that be?)
Encouraged clergy to hold public office.
Funded religious books for public libraries.
Funded salaries for missionaries (Oh my……..government sponsored missionaries?)
Exempted churches from taxation
Established professional schools of theology. In fact he wanted to bring the entire faculty of Calvin’s theological seminary over from Geneva Switzerland and establish them at the University of Virginia.
Wrote treaties requiring other nations to guarantee religious freedom, including religious speeches and prayers in official ceremonies.


John Jay said, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." See a pattern yet?

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our PUBLIC SCHOOLS with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. He said, " …. "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology."
Go look to see what the book contained………It contained British poetry and used the Bible among it's selections. Did you know that McGuffey was a Christian preacher?

Now I do not believe America is any longer a Christian nation even though more people follow this faith. BUT……..to deny our Christian heritage is wrong and it is not factual. To say our government was not a part of religion is wrong. And the government protected all religions but had its hand in the Bible and its teachings.


You also said, “I like liberals because they believe in moral freedoms.”

To say that liberals believe in moral freedoms more is a joke. Do they believe in the moral freedom and right to life of the unborn child? How many liberals are pro-life? How many are against the present slaughter going on? They are more concerned with saving the eagle or the whale………certainly not the human unborn child.
 
Columbusite said:
To my credit, I haven't criticized Bush for swearing on the Bible, since with the exception of Roosevelt every other president has done this and there is so much that merits criticism I am very critical of Clinton and Democrats for not standing up for gay marriage. Why don't they just say they are standing up for the Constitution and that it applies to all citizens? Instead they're not for it, but they're not all that against it if it's civil unions instead. Even then they can't seem to make a collective stand. That's why I vote Libertarian when they're available. They seem to have a better grasp of the Constitution than both Republicans and, sadly, Democrats.
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Libertarians have a pronounced advantage over Republicans and Democrats.

They know they won't win anyway, so they can say what they really think.

At the same time, your typical Libertarian is more religiously tolerant and the basic premise of libertarianism is secular, anyway.

Democrats and Republicans can't even identify unique and distinguishing core values, and besides, religion is a good way to hook large numbers of voters.
 
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