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Ireland facing up to their crisis

justabubba

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very low tax rates certainly assured a strong economy [/s]

notice how the bush tax cut caused our own nation's economy to thrive
anybody want to defend more borrowing from the chinese, increasing our deficit account, in order to give tax breaks to billionaires
 

ReverendHellh0und

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/facepalm



Celtic Tiger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Celtic Tiger's momentum slowed sharply in 2002, after seven years of high growth. The Irish economic downturn was in line with the worldwide downturn.

he Celtic Tiger's momentum slowed sharply in 2002, after seven years of high growth. The Irish economic downturn was in line with the worldwide downturn.
The economy was impacted by a large reduction in investment in the worldwide information technology (IT) industry. The industry had over-expanded in the late 1990s, and its stock market equity declined sharply. Ireland was a major player in the IT industry: In 2002, it had exported US$10.4 billion worth of computer services, compared to $6.9 billion from the United States. Ireland accounted for approximately 50 percent of all mass-market packaged software sold in Europe in 2002 (OECD, 2002; OECD, 2004).
Foot and mouth disease and the September 11, 2001 attacks damaged Ireland's tourism and agricultural sectors, deterring U.S. and British tourists. Several companies moved operations to Eastern Europe and the People's Republic of China because of a rise in Irish wage costs, insurance premiums, and a general reduction in Ireland's economic competitiveness. The rising value of the Euro hit non-EMU exports, particularly those to the U.S. and the United Kingdom.
At the same time, economies globally experienced a slowdown. The economy of the United States grew only 0.3% in April, May and June 2002 from a year earlier. The Federal Reserve made 11 rate cuts that year in an attempt to stimulate the U.S. economy. In Europe, the EU scarcely grew throughout the whole of 2002, and many governments (notably Germany and France) lost control of public finances, causing large deficits that broke the terms of the EMU Stability and Growth Pact.
The economic downturn in Ireland was not a recession but a slowdown in the rate of economic expansion. Signs of a recovery became evident in late 2003 as U.S. investment levels increased once again. Many senior economists have heavily criticised[27] the Government and the economic imbalance in favour of the construction industry and the prospect of sustaining economic growth in the future.







If you are going to play hard partisan games, at least have all the facts. :roll:
 

ReverendHellh0und

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and be prepared to cherry pick your facts....hey, who was president in 2002?




Cherry picking indeed. You made the claim about taxes causing the issue, all while ignoring the world wide recession, the EU strong arm tactics, the housing bubble (yes they had one), and thier social spending. (low taxes, lots of social programs)....


Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scolb. meaning they shouldn't take the bailouts.
 

Missed AB

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Cherry picking indeed. You made the claim about taxes causing the issue, all while ignoring the world wide recession, the EU strong arm tactics, the housing bubble (yes they had one), and thier social spending. (low taxes, lots of social programs)....


Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scolb. meaning they shouldn't take the bailouts.

Funny you were accused of cherry picking by providing contrast, while the original post was clearly cherry picking... And the person who made the first post did the accusing. LOL.
 

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Irish face pressure in euro zone survival crisis | Reuters

It wasn't too long ago that Ireland was one of the most touted success stories, but it seems that a lot of it was smoke and mirrors. They had lower taxes than competing countries, but I guess that couldn't possibly be the problem, right?:shock:

Ireland is struggling with a deficit that has ballooned this year to a staggering 32 per cent of GDP, a record for post-war Europe. Much of that resulted from the government's 45 billion-euro takeover of five banks that ran into trouble following the 2008 collapse of the country's real estate boom.

CBC News - Money - Ireland in debt crisis talks with EU

http://finance.sympatico.ca/home/ireland_in_debt_crisis_talks_with_eu/3aab2ef4


Pledges made by Ireland to support its banking sector amount to 220% of the country’s annual economic output. The total loans held in Irish banks are more than 11 times the size of the economy.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5733723.ece


How do you factor taxes into this problem?
 
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Best part about all this AB is that Ireland is on the brink of a right and libertarian minded shifts. There are talks of Irish tea parties.
 

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Now that the far right has spoken in support of low taxes, in the face of damning evidence, I would like to know how low taxes creates jobs and boosts the economy. We HAVE low taxes, and we don't have enough jobs in the current economy. From what I hear from SOME conservatives, low taxes is all we need to create jobs.
Is this like having your cake and eating it, too?:2razz:

A lot is said in the article about taxes being too low compared to other EU countries. It appears that lower taxes has a temporary effect, with others having to suffer the long term effects later on, in the form of larger deficits and national debt.

It can happen here in the USA ....but we will do our best to avoid facing the issue head on, and just allow the mess to get bigger. Eventually cuts in services will have to be made across the board, even in entitlements...
Whatever happens with the Bush tax cut expiration, I am willing to bet that the economy will not recover for quite a long time, and the conservatives will continue to blame "high" tax rates.
 

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Now that the far left has spoken in strawmen, based on cherry picked information and ignoring the totality of the issue........ :roll:
 

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what is the totality of the situation, rev?




Post #5



One thing that I do concede is that low taxes and high spending has indeed increased the issue. You can't do that. That said, there are several other larger factors in play to which I mentioned in post #5.


the biggest factor however was thier banking loan system making insane loans to folks just like we did.
 
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I will respond to your post, but a conversation needs to go both ways. I am not a shouting post for you. I asked how you drew the conclusion that tax rates has to do with the banking problems in Ireland. Specifically, Pledges made by Ireland to support its banking sector amount to 220% of the country’s annual economic output. The total loans held in Irish banks are more than 11 times the size of the economy.
Now that the far right has spoken in support of low taxes, in the face of damning evidence, I would like to know how low taxes creates jobs and boosts the economy

My personal opinion is that there is a "sweet spot" for the tax rate. I believe that taxes should be increased as the economy gets stronger and decreased as the economy gets weaker. This allows the government to collect money in the good times so it can spend to stimulate in the bad times while keeping the long term budget in line.

To examine your point that you are implying that low taxes do not assist in the economy, lets look...

First the extremes.
A tax rate of 0% would allow you to keep all of your money that you make at your job. This would give you full spending power. This spending power, would be the same as a 30% pay raise. This is good for you, but bad for the government as they need money to function, and a 0% tax does not bring in revenue.

A tax rate of 100% would give you no purchasing power. Every time you go to work would be working for nothing. The government would keep all of your earnings. This would not stimulate you to work, nor would it stimulate economic activity. This would also produce no money for the government as there would be no taxable income because no one would work for free.

If you can accept the above lets move forward. If you do not accept the above please state why.

On the 0% side as taxes are increased and moved towards the 100%, it gives you less spending power and less incentive to work, and less economic activity. The government will also collect more revenue from taxes.

On the 100% side, as the taxes are decreased, the economy will be stimulated as people will see a reason to go to work. They will have an increased purchasing power. The government will then collect more money in tax revenue as the tax rate is decreased due to increased economic movement.

As the 2 sides come together will reach a sweet spot, where the government will be able to function optimally and so too will the economy.

Furthermore as the economy heats up, increasing taxes decreases inflation. As the economy cools, the increased revenue from the tax increase of the previous cycle can be spent by the government to stimulate ex. public works project, and lowering the taxes gives people more purchasing power to self stimulate.

Questions?


Whatever happens with the Bush tax cut expiration, I am willing to bet that the economy will not recover for quite a long time, and the conservatives will continue to blame "high" tax rates.

It's baffeling to me how you can make the above statement. If you think higher taxes are the answer, shouldn't the economy improve when the tax cuts expire?
 

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Ireland is struggling with a deficit that has ballooned this year to a staggering 32 per cent of GDP, a record for post-war Europe. Much of that resulted from the government's 45 billion-euro takeover of five banks that ran into trouble following the 2008 collapse of the country's real estate boom.

CBC News - Money - Ireland in debt crisis talks with EU

Ireland in debt crisis talks with EU | Sympatico.ca Finance


Pledges made by Ireland to support its banking sector amount to 220% of the country’s annual economic output. The total loans held in Irish banks are more than 11 times the size of the economy.

Ireland ‘could default on debt’ - Times Online


How do you factor taxes into this problem?
did you read the linked article? Ireland lowered its taxes to gain a competitive edge, now the piper must be paid...
 

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I will respond to your post, but a conversation needs to go both ways. I am not a shouting post for you. I asked how you drew the conclusion that tax rates has to do with the banking problems in Ireland. Specifically, Pledges made by Ireland to support its banking sector amount to 220% of the country’s annual economic output. The total loans held in Irish banks are more than 11 times the size of the economy.

My personal opinion is that there is a "sweet spot" for the tax rate. I believe that taxes should be increased as the economy gets stronger and decreased as the economy gets weaker. This allows the government to collect money in the good times so it can spend to stimulate in the bad times while keeping the long term budget in line.

To examine your point that you are implying that low taxes do not assist in the economy, lets look...

First the extremes.
A tax rate of 0% would allow you to keep all of your money that you make at your job. This would give you full spending power. This spending power, would be the same as a 30% pay raise. This is good for you, but bad for the government as they need money to function, and a 0% tax does not bring in revenue.

A tax rate of 100% would give you no purchasing power. Every time you go to work would be working for nothing. The government would keep all of your earnings. This would not stimulate you to work, nor would it stimulate economic activity. This would also produce no money for the government as there would be no taxable income because no one would work for free.

If you can accept the above lets move forward. If you do not accept the above please state why.

On the 0% side as taxes are increased and moved towards the 100%, it gives you less spending power and less incentive to work, and less economic activity. The government will also collect more revenue from taxes.

On the 100% side, as the taxes are decreased, the economy will be stimulated as people will see a reason to go to work. They will have an increased purchasing power. The government will then collect more money in tax revenue as the tax rate is decreased due to increased economic movement.

As the 2 sides come together will reach a sweet spot, where the government will be able to function optimally and so too will the economy.

Furthermore as the economy heats up, increasing taxes decreases inflation. As the economy cools, the increased revenue from the tax increase of the previous cycle can be spent by the government to stimulate ex. public works project, and lowering the taxes gives people more purchasing power to self stimulate.

Questions?




It's baffeling to me how you can make the above statement. If you think higher taxes are the answer, shouldn't the economy improve when the tax cuts expire?

Wait and see....even if Obama gets his way and only the "rich" get their rates increased, we are likely to still be in the crapper until drastic spending cuts are made, and we all know that most of our politicians are afraid to leave any amount of pork on the table...
Again, IMO, the crisis hasn't reached its peak yet. Entitlements will be reduced and taxes will go up even if the GOP gains the WH.
 

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Irish face pressure in euro zone survival crisis | Reuters

It wasn't too long ago that Ireland was one of the most touted success stories, but it seems that a lot of it was smoke and mirrors. They had lower taxes than competing countries, but I guess that couldn't possibly be the problem, right?:shock:
They were also in the european union, which is *surprise surprise* known for ****ing nations over, but i guess that couldn't possibly be the problem, right?
 

justabubba

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They were also in the european union, which is *surprise surprise* known for ****ing nations over, but i guess that couldn't possibly be the problem, right?

you imply that ireland's participation in the EU is the problem
please tell us why that is the case
 

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Wait and see....even if Obama gets his way and only the "rich" get their rates increased, we are likely to still be in the crapper until drastic spending cuts are made, and we all know that most of our politicians are afraid to leave any amount of pork on the table...
Again, IMO, the crisis hasn't reached its peak yet. Entitlements will be reduced and taxes will go up even if the GOP gains the WH.
IMO you are not having a conversation with me... Thank you for your input, your convictions have changed my mind... :/

Good bye.
 

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you imply that ireland's participation in the EU is the problem
please tell us why that is the case

If Ireland was not in the EU, it would be able to manage it's own monetary policy. In the EU, the monetary policy of all the countries may out weight Ireland's needs. For example Germany's tax payers need to agree that bailing out Ireland is in their best interest.
 

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Still ignoring the banking crisis I see.

Did I ever say that there are no other factors to be considered? I rarely use absolutes, they are too subject to challenge. Does anyone here really believe that low taxes will create jobs in an economy where a significant amount of consumers are staying home and hanging on to their money?
 

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Did I ever say that there are no other factors to be considered? I rarely use absolutes, they are too subject to challenge. Does anyone here really believe that low taxes will create jobs in an economy where a significant amount of consumers are staying home and hanging on to their money?




Sounds pretty absolute to me:


Irish face pressure in euro zone survival crisis | Reuters

It wasn't too long ago that Ireland was one of the most touted success stories, but it seems that a lot of it was smoke and mirrors. They had lower taxes than competing countries, but I guess that couldn't possibly be the problem, right?:shock:




No sir, that is not "the problem" the "problem" was a housing bubble, a wordwide recession and other factors I quoted in post 5.
 

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IMO you are not having a conversation with me... Thank you for your input, your convictions have changed my mind... :/

Good bye.
don't go away mad, your opinions are still noted....even if they are biassed toward the far right.:2wave:
 

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Now that the far left has spoken in strawmen, based on cherry picked information and ignoring the totality of the issue........ :roll:

Far left? How can that be if I have only voted DEM one time in a federal level election, and that was a long time ago.
You sound like a former co worker who bragged that he was to the right of Atilla the Hun. Anybody to the left of him was a liberal, even moderates....
I am aware that there are multiple issues, but the link had quite a bit to say about taxes being lower in Ireland than other EU countries.
 

justabubba

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Sounds pretty absolute to me:
point it out as i missed seeing that which was "pretty absolute"

No sir, that is not "the problem" the "problem" was a housing bubble, a wordwide recession and other factors I quoted in post 5.
a low corporate tax rate, which deprives the irish government of needed tax revenues to restore the nation to a sound economic condition ... you don't recognize that as a significant problem
why am i not surprised at your admission
 
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