Iraq's Death Squads (1 Viewer)

[nikibilly]

"What goes around comes around", exactly what is happening in Iraq right now. Saddam persecuted the Shia now the Shia are taking all the power and persecuting the Sunni's. The special police [Police Commando] and Army are infiltrated by Shia militia and are carrying out deaths, tortures, kidnappings just like Saddam had done to the Shia.

There is Sectarian violence happening in Iraq, and attack and counter attacks perpertrated by Shia and Shia. Im not talking about insurgency from terrorists but cultural violence.

I now understand why the Iraqi Police and Army personnel especially at recruitment stations are targetted, they are corrupt and are carrying out appalling crimes in and out of uniform.

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=484

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=301

Above links offer a very shocking documentary examining whats really happening in Iraq.

Iraq is not the only country in which its police and army are infiltrated by death squads Channel four also found that Police in Jamaica have been guilty of commiting crimes against civilians.

http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/10/week_3/16_jamaica.html

Saw the documentary on british television and was immediately appalled, just wanted everyone to know whats happening.

Link below provided for by a valuable member at isohunt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_squad_history#Iraq

The documentary i watched on channel four was called 'The Death Squads'. It accused the Shia politician and then Interior Minister Bayan Jabr of ordering the deaths, imprisonment, torturing [including rape] of Iraqi [mainly Sunni] civilians.

An article published by Time Magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1175055,00.html

The documentary and from reading various websites indicates that these death squads are trained with US backing.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/10/29/124533/68

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/661/7104

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11542

The following article was co-written by Yasser Salihee who was later shot dead by a US sniper at an checkpoint.
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050703014348823
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/iraq-j01.shtml

So my point is: What the Hell are the US doing in Iraq?? If they want democracy and a curb to the violence how will training these Shia militias that are targetting the Sunni minority help bring stability to the country? I believe and have written previously, 'Violence begets violence'. The Shia are killing innocent civilians how do you think the Sunni's will retaliate? With words??

I believe that what the US are doing are creating these militias to counter the insurgency that was so much of a problem for the US that it claimed so many of their troops lives. And, to try and stop the growing dissatisfication with the way the war in Iraq is progressing at home, with so many calls for withdrawal and to swell the essential uneasiness at home.

The BBC published on their website what is happening, and to my surprise it doesnt seem to have been picked up by and broadcasted by every televison and newsmedia outlet. I cant believe its not on television, newspapers, etc... and made with wide spread awareness.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4719252.stm

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/world/middleeast/05iraq.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0422-24.htm

I see nothing but doom for Iraq and the US are doing nothing but to encourage it.

 

[cherokee]

You have nothing but bullshit...:roll:

What you cant face the facts they are killing eachother but then people
LIKE YOU come back and cry "Why dont the US do something, Stay out of it"!..all in the same breath.

Make up your damn mind..

But the best reason I've heard to blame the US the killing is
"Muslims dont kill muslims":lamo :2rofll:

Yea buddy! and I have a flock of flying pigs..

 

[Volker]

What you cant face the facts they are killing eachother but then people
LIKE YOU come back and cry "Why dont the US do something, Stay out of it"!..all in the same breath.

Niki obviously can face the facts. He did not say, the US does not do something, he said the US does not do anything but encouraging it. Now try to the face fact.

But the best reason I've heard to blame the US the killing is "Muslims dont kill muslims":lamo :2rofll:

Niki did not say this, actually he said the opposite. I have never heard this one before. I have never heard this one about Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, name one. I have heard this one before about Jews when Rabin was killed, but it is simply not true for them, too.

 

[cherokee]

Volker]Niki obviously can face the facts. He did not say, the US does not do something, he said the US does not do anything but encouraging it. Now try to the face fact.

Why dont you try reading it again and get back to me on it...
Come on buddy you can do it...:roll:

Niki did not say this, actually he said the opposite. I have never heard this one before. I have never heard this one about Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, name one. I have heard this one before about Jews when Rabin was killed, but it is simply not true for them, too.

Did I say that he did say it? I said the best I HAVE SEEN!
If your gonna debate now would you please drop the hitler love doll?

 

[Volker]

Ok, for all the friends of Counterpunch here is a story about Negroponte, the American ambassador in Iraq from 2004 to 2005, who gained his reputation as Ambassador to Death Squads in Honduras.

http://counterpunch.org/hassan06042004.html

This scumbag is United States Director of National Intelligence meanwhile.

 

[cherokee]

Ok, for all the friends of Counterpunch here is a story about Negroponte, the American ambassador in Iraq from 2004 to 2005, who gained his reputation as Ambassador to Death Squads in Honduras.

http://counterpunch.org/hassan06042004.html

This scumbag is United States Director of National Intelligence meanwhile.

and yet you can prove chit......:lamo

 

[Volker]

Why dont you try reading it again and get back to me on it...
Come on buddy you can do it...:roll:

I read it again, I don't know, what you mean.

Did I say that he did say it? I said the best I HAVE SEEN!

I've never seen this before.

If your gonna debate now would you please drop the hitler love doll?

What should this be?

 

[Volker]

and yet you can prove chit......:lamo

I take it as you're not being a big Counterpunch fan

 

[cherokee]

I take it as you're not being a big Counterpunch fan

Its hard to when you read stories like this one....

CounterPunch outlines the terrible evidence that thousands of Falun Gong members have been killed to supply China's body parts trade with the West.

Plus my tinfoil hat is in the shop for repairs...

 

[Volker]

Its hard to when you read stories like this one....

CounterPunch outlines the terrible evidence that thousands of Falun Gong members have been killed to supply China's body parts trade with the West.

I agree, not all of their content can be cited in scientific papers

Plus my tinfoil hat is in the shop for repairs...

That's why I have two of them :rofl

 

[MSgt]

The "Death Squads" (love the dramatics of the press) are continually addressed and police officers are continually being removed and placed back into training by the Iraqi government. Some of these police units have been disbanded. Some individuals are being tried for their crimes while performing their duties.

The truth of the matter is that Iraq cannot afford to simply fire and refuse anybody that shows up to work. They are attempting to convince their people to change. But traditions do not die easily, especially ones that are rooted in racism, hate, and religion. Culture is fate.

This is the situation and this is their generational hurdle. The obtuse sentiment that America is to blame for every breath they take is rediculous and completely dishonest. The goal should be to be constructive in our criticisms, not to invent fantasy from what is already a difficult situation.

 

[nikibilly]

cherokee,
You have hugely misunderstood my post and what i sought to make aware. And, your comments are outrageous. I can bear sympathy with your sentiment but if your going to enter a debate seek to offer guidance or even a well thought-out response rather than abusive rants. No offence mate.

Volker,
Appreciate the response, a valid response in my absence. Glad to read that someone actually understood my post. i fail to understand how it could of been misconstrued though.

 

[Volker]

Volker,
Appreciate the response, a valid response in my absence. Glad to read that someone actually understood my post. i fail to understand how it could of been misconstrued though.

Thank you, maybe it was not misconstrued, but handled in the "an European said something about America and it does not make us look good" mode :mrgreen:

 

[nikibilly]

The "Death Squads" (love the dramatics of the press) are continually addressed and police officers are continually being removed and placed back into training by the Iraqi government. Some of these police units have been disbanded. Some individuals are being tried for their crimes while performing their duties.

Im glad to hear that these members of Police and with a touch of certainty army members too, have been or are being tried for comitting these crimes. But realistically speaking, will or have they actually ever been prosecuted and given a fair and justifiable sentence?.

The truth of the matter is that Iraq cannot afford to simply fire and refuse anybody that shows up to work. They are attempting to convince their people to change. But traditions do not die easily, especially ones that are rooted in racism, hate, and religion. Culture is fate.

I understand that their exists a long hate between the Shia and Sunni and Shia and Sunni against the Kurds in the North.

However, what i had written in my first post was that their to be evidence to support the claim that these members of Police [espeically Special Police] are being taken from Armed militia loyal to various Shia clerics who are aligned with Iran. Namely Bayan Jabr

This is the situation and this is their generational hurdle. The obtuse sentiment that America is to blame for every breath they take is rediculous and completely dishonest. The goal should be to be constructive in our criticisms, not to invent fantasy from what is already a difficult situation.

I dont believe that the death squads in Iraq are a fantasy nor are the claims by countless other people that members of the newly formed Iraqi government are involved in recruiting members from Shia miliita and placing them into the Police, Special Police and Army. To say that it is a fantasy without conducting an invesitgation, especially yourself, is uninspiring.

Edit: An article written by the "Defending Human Rights Worldwide" website:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/29/iraq14473.htm

 

[Vader]

However, what i had written in my first post was that their to be evidence to support the claim that these members of Police [espeically Special Police] are being taken from Armed militia loyal to various Shia clerics who are aligned with Iran. Namely Bayan Jabr

You forgot to mention the biggest sellout in all of Iraq.... Mr. Muqtada Al Sadr. Al Sadr is a long time stooge of the Ayetollah and will sell Iraq out to Iran in a New York second.

Al Sadr has long needed to be removed and should've been imprisoned back in 2004; however, he was allowed to remain free. This allowed him to create death squads and spew anti-coalition hate.

:shock:

 

[MSgt]

Im glad to hear that these members of Police and with a touch of certainty army members too, have been or are being tried for comitting these crimes. But realistically speaking, will or have they actually ever been prosecuted and given a fair and justifiable sentence?.

I'm aware of no verdicts in these cases. This is something new they have been forced to address. Nor do I know if it will affect anything. One thing is certain, holding people accountable is what deters other incidents.

I understand that their exists a long hate between the Shia and Sunni and Shia and Sunni against the Kurds in the North.

However, what i had written in my first post was that their to be evidence to support the claim that these members of Police [espeically Special Police] are being taken from Armed militia loyal to various Shia clerics who are aligned with Iran. Namely Bayan Jabr

Wouldn't know. However, we can make educated guesses based on the environment alone. The sentiment amongst Iraqis is one of hate and revenge for past grievances and historical traditions. This will exist amongst the police forces as well. It is very probably that some are loyal to the visions of those old mullahs in Iran. However, we must place this in perspective. In the Iraqi vote...

-The United Iraqi Alliance got 48.2 percent of the vote with Sistani. This is the Shi'a backers, but there vote was not enough to govern without a coalition.

-The Kurds recieved 25.7 percent of the votes.

- Allawi received 13.8 percent of the votes and was made up of Sunni and Shi'tes.

What is of special interest is that Sadr, the leader of the Shi'a militia only received enough votes to get 3 seats out of 275. The Shia clerics that choose to align themselves to Iran against the popular sentiment among their peers (because they know the Iranian model of statescraft has failed) are merely lashing out. Like the terrorists that travel into Iraq to fight, they know that a civilization that embraces the basic human rights of all individuals and the rule of law offers them no power.

I dont believe that the death squads in Iraq are a fantasy nor are the claims by countless other people that members of the newly formed Iraqi government are involved in recruiting members from Shia miliita and placing them into the Police, Special Police and Army. To say that it is a fantasy without conducting an invesitgation, especially yourself, is uninspiring.

Edit: An article written by the "Defending Human Rights Worldwide" website:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/29/iraq14473.htm

What I meant by "fantasy" is the assumption that America is to blame for all ills within their culture. The happenings within the Iraqi government is reality and is a focus of effort amongst the majority of their officials. However, like I said, their traditions and cultural failures will not die easily. They are faced with a situation where they will continue to nurse a transitional culture while striving to move forward.

 

[nikibilly]

GySgt,
Police are formed "to protect and serve" [where have you heard that before?] not abuse their power by commiting serious crimes like murdering civilians because of their ethnicity. They should be indoctrinated with morals, no one is above the law! The US have to do more to make sure that the police and army members being recruited are background checked and made sure they have no affilitiations with these armed shia militias. And, if they are caught they are given the appropriate sentence, and verdicts should act as a deterrent just like you said.

To commit these crimes in uniform, and apparently there is an even "death squad" uniform, is even more disturbing.

Edit: It may be that they are being formed in an effort to counter the threat of insurgency & terrorism for troops. But, they are underminig the country and sectarian violence will see a rise if this problem isnt resolved by dissolving these 'death squads'. Violence will only increase, and like i wrote before, what Saddam did to the Shia will no doubt happen to the minorities. If that happens you may have another dictator in the future that needs overthrowing.

 

[cherokee]

cherokee,
You have hugely misunderstood my post and what i sought to make aware. And, your comments are outrageous. I can bear sympathy with your sentiment but if your going to enter a debate seek to offer guidance or even a well thought-out response rather than abusive rants. No offence mate.
.

No offence taken.

It just gets old to read over and over how the US is responsible for the death squads or even the US policy.

Now people have asked why the US didn’t/doesn’t do more?
Well when they do there are accused of targeting civilians, we’re accused of excessive force, overkill and so on. Your damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

 

[Volker]

Your damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

I don't know people from outside the US to actually critisize the US for doing too less or for doing nothing, I doubt, there are many of them.

 

[Vader]

I don't know people from outside the US to actually critisize the US for doing too less or for doing nothing, I doubt, there are many of them.

When the coalition forces pull out of Iraq in the next year or two and Iran invades, the Iraqi people will blame us for it. To them, I can say, you have only yourselves to blame. We tried to help you and you decided to support terrorism and oppression. We're sorry you didn't let us do more. Enjoy living under an Iranian terrorist regime that murders teenaged girls without cause or provocation.

 

[nikibilly]

"What goes around comes around", exactly what is happening in Iraq right now. Saddam persecuted the Shia now the Shia are taking all the power and persecuting the Sunni's. The special police [Police Commando] and Army are infiltrated by Shia militia and are carrying out deaths, tortures, kidnappings just like Saddam had done to the Shia.

There is Sectarian violence happening in Iraq, and attack and counter attacks perpertrated by Shia and Shia. Im not talking about insurgency from terrorists but cultural violence.

I now understand why the Iraqi Police and Army personnel especially at recruitment stations are targetted, they are corrupt and are carrying out appalling crimes in and out of uniform.

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=484

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=301

Above links offer a very shocking documentary examining whats really happening in Iraq.

Iraq is not the only country in which its police and army are infiltrated by death squads Channel four also found that Police in Jamaica have been guilty of commiting crimes against civilians.

http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/10/week_3/16_jamaica.html

Saw the documentary on british television and was immediately appalled, just wanted everyone to know whats happening.

Link below provided for by a valuable member at isohunt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_squad_history#Iraq

The documentary i watched on channel four was called 'The Death Squads'. It accused the Shia politician and then Interior Minister Bayan Jabr of ordering the deaths, imprisonment, torturing [including rape] of Iraqi [mainly Sunni] civilians.

An article published by Time Magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1175055,00.html

The documentary and from reading various websites indicates that these death squads are trained with US backing.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/10/29/124533/68

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/661/7104

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11542

The following article was co-written by Yasser Salihee who was later shot dead by a US sniper at an checkpoint.
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050703014348823
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/iraq-j01.shtml

So my point is: What the Hell are the US doing in Iraq?? If they want democracy and a curb to the violence how will training these Shia militias that are targetting the Sunni minority help bring stability to the country? I believe and have written previously, 'Violence begets violence'. The Shia are killing innocent civilians how do you think the Sunni's will retaliate? With words??

I believe that what the US are doing are creating these militias to counter the insurgency that was so much of a problem for the US that it claimed so many of their troops lives. And, to try and stop the growing dissatisfication with the way the war in Iraq is progressing at home, with so many calls for withdrawal and to swell the essential uneasiness at home.

The BBC published on their website what is happening, and to my surprise it doesnt seem to have been picked up by and broadcasted by every televison and newsmedia outlet. I cant believe its not on television, newspapers, etc... and made with wide spread awareness.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4719252.stm

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/world/middleeast/05iraq.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0422-24.htm

I see nothing but doom for Iraq and the US are doing nothing but to encourage it.

EDIT: Link To Video "Iraq's Death Squads":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q40i4Hh3N3I

 

[Volker]

When the coalition forces pull out of Iraq in the next year or two and Iran invades, the Iraqi people will blame us for it.

This is nothing but speculation. The Iran has no reasons to invade Iraq. The Iraqi people has no reasons to blame America for it.

To them, I can say, you have only yourselves to blame. We tried to help you and you decided to support terrorism and oppression. We're sorry you didn't let us do more.

This is very cynical. I hope the Iraqi people can manage to get rid of the coalition invaders very soon.

 

[nikibilly]

There are two ways in which Iran can invade Iraq, one involves using their military and the second involves using their ideology. When i read that post i understood it for meaning the latter, for which i think would be true some time in the future the way things are currently progressing and/or when the coalition eventually leaves Iraq. I found out that Sistani rejects the Iranian ideology, however when he is gone and Al-Sadr possible takes over[?] whose ideology will be enforced. As i understand it, most holding governmental postions now are Shia. I read that when Sistani left the country to have heart surgery in London there were clashes simultaneously between Sadr's militia and multi-national troops in Southern Iraq, although as i remember it, it was with British troops.

If the coalition leave then i believe their may be further ethnic cleansing, with the sectarian violence leaving the country into civil war. The coalition should only leave until there are significant improvements, especially in the Iraqi Police and Army. The police are responsible for keeping law and order and from what i have seen they are a long way off target.

 

[Volker]

There are two ways in which Iran can invade Iraq, one involves using their military and the second involves using their ideology.

The last one can't be called an invasion.

When i read that post i understood it for meaning the latter, for which i think would be true some time in the future the way things are currently progressing and/or when the coalition eventually leaves Iraq. I found out that Sistani rejects the Iranian ideology, however when he is gone and Al-Sadr possible takes over[?] whose ideology will be enforced. As i understand it, most holding governmental postions now are Shia. I read that when Sistani left the country to have heart surgery in London there were clashes simultaneously between Sadr's militia and multi-national troops in Southern Iraq, although as i remember it, it was with British troops.

If you talk about Najaf, there were only a few Spanish-Salvadoran invaders and a lot of American invaders there, no British invaders, as far as I know.

If the coalition leave then i believe their may be further ethnic cleansing, with the sectarian violence leaving the country into civil war. The coalition should only leave until there are significant improvements, especially in the Iraqi Police and Army. The police are responsible for keeping law and order and from what i have seen they are a long way off target.

The coalition troops obviously have not been helpful in reaching significant improvements, I would like to see them leave Iraq.

 

[nikibilly]

The last one can't be called an invasion.

Maybe invasion is not, technically, the right word to use but i think what is meant is understood. Shia clerics and government ministers who are are being backed by Iran. They are ultimately doing what Iran tells them to do.

If you talk about Najaf, there were only a few Spanish-Salvadoran invaders and a lot of American invaders there, no British invaders, as far as I know.

I meant the attacks on british troops in Basra.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0921/p01s03-woiq.html?s=widep

The coalition troops obviously have not been helpful in reaching significant improvements, I would like to see them leave Iraq.

Like i wrote before, if the coalition were to leave then Iraq would be more dangerous and we would see more sectarian violence, things wont get better by themselves, you may hear less on the news, much as you did when Saddam was commiting crimes against his people.

You wont be able to hear and see everything, having journalists in the country to report on the progress they are making with the subsequent departure of coalition troops would be as safe as during Saddam's time. We wouldnt be able to see if the country was getting better because of the security issues such as kidnappings etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/04/AR2006090400144.html?referrer=email

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6077870.stm