Iraqi war tantamount to swatting flies

[Kelzie]

Then who cares what the stats say. You can't pick and choose points in a debate. Big picture.

The stats weren't on the Cold War. You can't pick and choose what a stat is about in a debate. The stats were on the contributation today. Not 30 years ago, not 60 years ago, or 100 years ago. If you want to find some stats about what we were donating than, by all means, be my guest.

Your were arguing like the US don't do her fair share so I threw that in. Percentage of GDP and that sort of nonsence. We are still in Europe with our military. The reds aint dead yet. Europe I would think collectivly had enough might to deal Bosnia. We spent some cash there. Does that count on our world spending credit. Take into account all of our spending world wide. help, protection, the saleries of troops in Europe ect and I think next to that the rest of the worlds so-called "contributions" would be a pittance compared to ours.

It doesn't detail military spending. We weren't talking about just military spending. And I have a feeling that Europe spent quite a bit in the WWs too. Not to mention that they had to rebuild their cities afterwards. Something we were spared.

After the World Wars? They wouldn't dare. I wonder how many cheese drinking beret wearers lost their lives on our soil?

No, they wouldn't because it's rude. And it also trivializes the men that did die in Europe to suggest that they somehow "owe us one"

Anything? Where does Gunny say anything? Part of Gunnys point I think is it's all fine and dandy to send some cash. We "get dirty". Do you not understand that? How about this. What percentage of our GDP is a dead Marine or soldier? The world wether they realize it or not will reap the benifit for decades to come from what we do in the MIddle East. How much GDP is that?

The other part of "Gunnys" point is that Europe doesn't do anything to help to help the rest of the world. Which IS wrong. And when did you develop the ability to see into the future?

Your age in referance to the weak smack you tried to lay on Gunny. That's all. Not your intelligence or debating skills or any other imagined slight. Just that weak smack. Very weak. And with weak smack like that you should be scurd of the basement. I mean that's like bald Sampson smack. Vanilla fat-free icecream smack. Smack that if you could only hear it would only make a weak s sound. The smack like a Frenchman would bring. 7 year old girl with mononucleosis smack. The definition of is as a defence smack. Sure you want to go to the basement? People disappear down there. I live there. Gandhi's the only one to come out alive.

Pishaw. Your age in reference to your weak smack (and I use that term loosely) on me. Old man weak. Jiggly arm weak. Needs to use Depends weak. Yeah that weak. Wine is the only thing that gets better with age. Preferably FRENCH wine. Everything else just gets senile. How's the memory lately teach? Forgetting your phone number? Your age? Howbout the points your trying to make, but can't because you are just too DAMN weak? Don't forget teach, we're going to be the ones wiping up your drool in the nursing home. Which, judging from that weak a** smack, isn't going to be too long. I've been to the basement. And you know what? It smells like old man.

Boo yah beeotch. :mrgreen:

Please tell me that's a joke. Holy under 24 year old kids Batman.

I dunno. You're the one that brought it up. I thought you'd know. I hear ginseng helps the memory...

 

[MSgt]

We helped rebuild Europe and we funded their rail road repairs.

The point is we give and give and give and still there are haters that would point out our errors as they watch us do the dirty work. Their help is very little and in many cases it is the bare minimum. I would much rather see the French army (cough, cough) next to me in a third world country than to see them back at home with their freshly mailed in checks. The fact is, it is entirely cheaper to send a check than muscle to help.

 

[Kelzie]

We helped rebuild Europe and we funded their rail road repairs.

The point is we give and give and give and still there are haters that would point out our errors as they watch us do the dirty work.

Maybe that's because you refuse to believe that others are giving too.

 

[MSgt]

What exactly do you think they give?

 

[Kelzie]

What exactly do you think they give?

Where have you been? I'm not going to post the numbers again. They give more money than we do in humanitarian aid. Period. And why would you expect them to be in a war that they don't support in the first place? Because we want them to?

 

[MSgt]

That's what I thought. We've come full circle back to money. They offer no "real" help. Somalia was the last time the UN brought Europe out from behind it's borders and they just left one by one until America stood alone.

This isn't just about Iraq. Where are they in Afghanistan? Hmmm, I guess 9/11 wasn't there problem like Nazi Germany and Bosnia was ours. Where were they for the tsunami relief? Oh yeah, the check was in the mail. Where are they in HOA (Horn of Africa)? I guess the Marines couldn't use the support. Where are they with regards to Bosnia? I, actually, have no idea what they are doing about that besides ignoring it. The list goes on and on.

There's no sense in continuing this one. You see money as helping, while I see money and military deployment as helping.

 

[Kelzie]

That's what I thought. We've come full circle back to money. They offer no "real" help. Somalia was the last time the UN brought Europe out from behind it's borders and they just left one by one until America stood alone.

This isn't just about Iraq. Where are they in Afghanistan? Hmmm, I guess 9/11 wasn't there problem like Nazi Germany and Bosnia was ours. Where were they for the tsunami relief? Oh yeah, the check was in the mail. Where are they in HOA (Horn of Africa)? I guess the Marines couldn't use the support. Where are they with regards to Bosnia? I, actually, have no idea what they are doing about that besides ignoring it. The list goes on and on.

There's no sense in continuing this one. You see money as helping, while I see money and military deployment as helping.

Nazi Germany was everyones problem. If you don't think they would have come after us next, you're nuts.

You actually said:

Blaming America for the world's problems is the narcotic of choice for selfish countries that do nothing.

They do something. You just don't want to admit it because either you hate being wrong, or because to you money is worthless without people killing each other.

 

[teacher]

The stats weren't on the Cold War. You can't pick and choose what a stat is about in a debate. The stats were on the contributation today. Not 30 years ago, not 60 years ago, or 100 years ago. If you want to find some stats about what we were donating than, by all means, be my guest.

I'll say it simpler. Put a dollor amount on all of the US contributions. Notice you didn't give me a price on a American life. How about this. Lump in the price of our war in Iraq and add it to your so-called monitary contributions. Read what Gunny says. I aint gonna repeat his points. I notice you ignore them. So what is it your looking for. The US to GIVE more money to the rest of the world? Address the point we are always there where needed in a heartbeat. Add our private contributions to your little stat. Not 30 years ago. The tsunami. The Turkey earthquake. The CDC. Unicef. Red Cross ect. Why do you young people march so myopicly do the drum of America bad. I am proud to be an American. We have done great things for the whole globe. There is more to contributions to the world than dollars in foriegn aid. Like Gunny said. We also give lives. Go protest at Hate/Ashbury. People like Gunny and me in the end don't care what you think. Sometimes we just try to open your eyes to ALL we have done. Go back to counting beans and crying foul. I'll go back to counting graves and crying.

It doesn't detail military spending. We weren't talking about just military spending. And I have a feeling that Europe spent quite a bit in the WWs too. Not to mention that they had to rebuild their cities afterwards. Something we were spared.

Neither was I. Read ALL the words. Sure they spent plenty fighting and putting back together their own countries. We spent much on their countries also.

No, they wouldn't because it's rude. And it also trivializes the men that did die in Europe to suggest that they somehow "owe us one"

They owe us respect and thanks and the knowledge that we will be there again if needed.

The other part of "Gunnys" point is that Europe doesn't do anything to help to help the rest of the world. Which IS wrong. And when did you develop the ability to see into the future?

Gunnys saying it's easy to send a check. Gunnys saying we send checks and bodies. When I was your age I was saying one day these Arabs will hit our soil. So to answer your question. Before you were born.

Pishaw. Your age in reference to your weak smack (and I use that term loosely) on me. Old man weak. Jiggly arm weak. Needs to use Depends weak. Yeah that weak. Wine is the only thing that gets better with age. Preferably FRENCH wine. Everything else just gets senile. How's the memory lately teach? Forgetting your phone number? Your age? Howbout the points your trying to make, but can't because you are just too DAMN weak? Don't forget teach, we're going to be the ones wiping up your drool in the nursing home. Which, judging from that weak a** smack, isn't going to be too long. I've been to the basement. And you know what? It smells like old man.

Notice your best smack is about age. I can still eat youngsters for breakfast.
I didn't smack your age. The French wine is the only good one. You say depends, I could say pampers, but that would be weak. Don't you forget, your getting older too. I've been in the basement when you visited, smelled like s***y diapers.

I dunno. You're the one that brought it up. I thought you'd know. I hear ginseng helps the memory...

Yea, you just don't get it.

 

[teacher]

It's very frustrating, especially, after all of our efforts, being blamed for the worlds problems and being accused of not doing enough.

Maybe it's the difference between doing and seeing for yourself vs. doing and seeing it on the internet. Remember Gunny, they're not all like that. W. won the election. That's why they're so mad.

 

[debate_junkie]

Teacher
How about Jews blowing up Palestinian children ?
Or do you only care about Jewish ones ?
I care about all of them.

ummm how about Palestinian children strapping on bombs, and walking into a market in Tel Aviv and detonating them, killing Jewish adults and children? The question goes both ways, robin. I suggest you look at all the facts before claiming them poor Palestinian children, because many of those suicide bombers on the streets of Israel are between 11 and 15.

 

[Kelzie]

For the record, I know America has done some great, beautiful things. We, and organizations associated with us help thousands of people every year. But we sell ourselves short by demeaning the work of others. Europe helps the people of the world too. Just because they don't do it with weapons doesn't make it any less of a help. Do you think the tsunami victims minded that the food purchased for them was from Europe? Of course not. They could be just as thankful for that help as they were to our guys for handing it out.

And it might be easier to respond to GySgt's points if he wasn't constantly editing them...seriously, edit for punctuation mistakes, don't add paragraphs in.

 

[teacher]

No, pointing out that the US gives more in dollars is worthless.

I'll buy that.

Europe can still find it in their hearts to give more than us in percentages.

So what's your point. We are bad people because we don't give as high a percentage. Again. Don't just count the money. Give me a reasonable dollar figure for lives, we'll factor that in, and see what the percentage is.

 

[teacher]

[

QUOTE=Kelzie]For the record, I know America has done some great, beautiful things. We, and organizations associated with us help thousands of people every year. But we sell ourselves short by demeaning the work of others. Europe helps the people of the world too. Just because they don't do it with weapons doesn't make it any less of a help. Do you think the tsunami victims minded that the food purchased for them was from Europe? Of course not. They could be just as thankful for that help as they were to our guys for handing it out.

More better.

And it might be easier to respond to GySgt's points if he wasn't constantly editing them...seriously, edit for punctuation mistakes, don't add paragraphs in.

[/QUOTE]

Gunnys been away for a while shooting bad guys in the head. I bet he's better at typing than you are at combat. He gets upset that he's been doing dirty work abroad to return home to see much of what he KNOWS maligned by those who get their news from blogs. I see both your points but Gunnys points have blood on them. Yours have toner. His points deserve respect. Your points deserve to be read. But then I'm old. 41. When your 41 look back to when you were 22. You'll be surprised.

And the WW ll thing? I used to sit as a young boy with both my Grandfathers. One from the European war and the other from the Pacific. I was the only grandchild on both sides. Meaning I got attention. That is knowledge you can't read about. I remember Grandpa Richard telling me some rules about the Army before I went off but after I signed. One was "never volunteer for anything"(while in there). So after being in one day they asked for volunteers with artistic ability. I did thinking I'd be doing art instead of peeling potatoes. I painted curbs. I never volunteered again. Some things you can't read about. That's why I put more stake on what Gunny says than Al Fraken or Bill O'Rielly. Or any politician for that matter. Until it's proven Gunny lies I'll take his word for it. He's not the only one I know who is or has been there. They all say the same thing.

 

[Kelzie]

Gunnys been away for a while shooting bad guys in the head. I bet he's better at typing than you are at combat. He gets upset that he's been doing dirty work abroad to return home to see much of what he KNOWS maligned by those who get their news from blogs. I see both your points but Gunnys points have blood on them. Yours have toner. His points deserve respect. Your points deserve to be read. But then I'm old. 41. When your 41 look back to when you were 22. You'll be surprised.

And the WW ll thing? I used to sit as a young boy with both my Grandfathers. One from the European war and the other from the Pacific. I was the only grandchild on both sides. Meaning I got attention. That is knowledge you can't read about. I remember Grandpa Richard telling me some rules about the Army before I went off but after I signed. One was "never volunteer for anything"(while in there). So after being in one day they asked for volunteers with artistic ability. I did thinking I'd be doing art instead of peeling potatoes. I painted curbs. I never volunteered again. Some things you can't read about. That's why I put more stake on what Gunny says than Al Fraken or Bill O'Rielly. Or any politician for that matter. Until it's proven Gunny lies I'll take his word for it. He's not the only one I know who is or has been there. They all say the same thing.

That's what my mom said. :mrgreen: Except she had to paint rocks. And seeing as he refuses to admit that any other country other than the US does any good, I'll take Gunny's knowledge with a grain of salt. Or two.

 

[akyron]

[
One was "never volunteer for anything"(while in there). So after being in one day they asked for volunteers with artistic ability. I did thinking I'd be doing art instead of peeling potatoes. I painted curbs. I never volunteered again. .

That is so funny. My Grandfather told me the exact same thing. He was on the beaches of Normandy and captured 65 enemy after being shot 3 times.
He must have told me a hundred times "Never volunteer for anything."



Thanks for the memories.

 

[robin]

As I've stated before, "The fact of the matter is, Euro greed and their ineptitude to understand these people by splitting the Middle East apart and drawing lines after WWII is what has caused all of this trouble that America is now faced with fixing."

1) We didn't have to go to Europe at all, but we did. - And, all the while, defending the Pacific largely by ourselves I might add.

2) Vietnam was France's mess that we tried to clean up.

3) Somalia was the result of French colonization.

4) South Africa is a mess because English colonization.

5) India is a mess because of British colonization.

6) Bosnia is a by product of European dismissalls.

7) How is Europe helping with Africa? Need I bring up the aid that America has always given that is, actually, quite useless, because no one else will help and take some responsibility for what they have done to it?

Last I checked America is the lead for every venture. Seems to me, America has had the burden of cleaning up Europes rapings and pillagings everywhere. Blaming America for the world's problems is the narcotic of choice for selfish countries that do nothing.

1) Do you know any history ?
Hitler declared war on you. Had you not joined the war he would pretty soon have been bombing you for a start. He had flown a prototype bomber with that range. His subs were slaughtering your merchant navy off your east coast. So no.. you didn't have to go to the war in Europe.. becuase it came to you !

2) True. Truman should have listened to Minn's please for aid from the west to set up a western friendly Nam independant from France in 1945. Instead he just buckled to De Gaul's wish. All of Nam could have been as sweet as S Korea if Truman had done the right thing.

3) They would be at tribal wars even if they hadn't been colonised. However that is no excuse for France not to have tried to install a parliamentary system before they left.

4) And dutch colonisation. Though again the different tribes have been at each other's throats for centuries.

5) India benefitted enormously in terms of infrastructure, rail network etc from British presence. It was Hindu v Muslim tribalistic lunacy that scuppered peaceful end to colonisation. They are not now particlularly in a mess. They have fast economic growth.

6) Bosnia is a consequence of Christian v Muslim tribalistic lunacy.

7) Where is the prove that USA gives more international aid per capita than the west does ?

Do you want me to start on America's evil policies around the world...
The CIA installing fascist dictators in the Americas. The School of the Americas, Nam etc etc
The dirty tricks of slimeballs like Kissenger & Nixon & Oli North & Reagun up to the present.
US Multi national corps employing people in slave like conditions around the world. Taking their oil & minerals from under their feet whilst they live in poverty etc etc

 

[MSgt]

I've already said that what Europe offers is useless without muscle. They give their money and feel good about themselves. They don't care about where their money goes or that those "needy" governments are wasting and embezzling it. It's much like dropping your 10 dollars in the offering plate as it goes by and not really caring where it is going. It just makes you feel like you are doing your part.

America does care if the money is being used properly. Maybe that is why our government gives less. We don't like lining the pockets of foreign dictators that have already lined their pockets with Euro currency as their people continue to starve, because the money just dissapears. Have you pulled out your little calculator and added in money from private sectors in America? Need I bring up tsunami relief in detail? Need I continue to bring up that after France and others mail there check in, that American military are the ones actually over there "really" dealing with the enemies of which also have some of that "good will" money in their pockets? Wake up to the real world. Until Europe starts deploying troops to help fight back wolves...they do NOTHING.

America: Sees a begger that is hungry. We feed him, take a long look at his government, back off his oppressor, give him clothes, buy him a mesquito net, buy him shoes, provide medicines to battle malaria and AIDS, and show him the door to a better future.

France (and others): Sees a begger that is hungry. Tosses his government some currency and walks away. Point fingers at America when a civillian get's killed and traitor Americans extend their fingers and join them.

robin (A sidekick? why not Batman? He was the muscle of the duo) I am majoring in history and I've seen enough of how the world helps their fellow man to know who is and who isn't making a difference. If France and others really wanted to help, then why don't they send troops to the HOA (Horn of Africa) with the Marines and actually do some good instead of writing a check?

 

[robin]

GySgt
You have ignored the 7 points I made & ignored the last paragraph.
Your statments are wild generalisations not concerned with specifics or the truth. You just want to be a jingo.
This is a waste of time.. I'm outta here.... CU

 

[teacher]

Thanks for the memories.

If only I had paid even more attention. What a wealth of knowledge and wisdom the elderly are. I miss them.

 

[MSgt]

That's because it is senseless in getting caught up in the specifics. We can throw proof back and forth about how "bad" everyone's countries are. It's petty. The issue is whether or not anyone's country is doing anything for the greater good. America generally stands alone. What you try to hold as truth is simply trivial and only serves to bog an individual down and away from the real truth. The "truth" is that those other countries do as little as possible and even that doesn't even make a dent when that money only serves to line a crooked governments pockets. I'm sure the needy people that do not receive Europe's money, because it has been embezzled before it gets to them, are very thankful for the contributions.

This is the "truth" and it doesn't matter what half facts you come up. They only reflect Europe's actuall dismissal of dealing with problems.

 

[robin]

$250,000,000,000, 1750 US servicemen dead, more & more flies coming in to Iraq. Not going well is it ?
Eight times as many Iraqi non combatant killed by you as Bin Laden has killed.

THE WAR IN IRAQ IS ****ING USELESS & INSANE & POINTLESS as a war on terror. They had no WMD & they has less to do with 911 than your ****ing flying shcools :shock:
Maybe Europe isn't so daft.
The terrorists are in our own backyards. How the hell is fighting a war in a country 1% of the worlds surface going to help when the bastards are all over the ****ing place ?
You are just making a few angry flies. I hope you like paying taxes.... 250 billion ! ... you jingoistic suckers.
Oh well Bush's arms making buddies who sponsor his election campagn are making a fortune out of it while you guys work 50 weeks a year to pay for it.
Christ I'd hate your life style... 2 weeks vacation a year in the states.
I guess you have to work so ****ing hard to pay for your utterly futile wars you can't afford to take more time off work ay ?

Finally just imagine if that $250,000,000,000 had been spend wisely on correct worldwide survellance & intelligence & spies & really routing out where terroists cells are. That would be a real war on terror. If that had been done than maybe the London Bombers would have been discovered before planting their bombs. Blair is just as much to blame as Bush on that.

 

[MSgt]

"Eight times as many Iraqi non combatant killed by you as Bin Laden has killed."

Iraqi civillians are being massacred by their own Islamist brothers. Are you that stupid and obtuse that you can't put things together? That sentence alone tells me how inept you are and how ignorant you are of anything political or real in the Middle East. You're clueless and stupid to reality.

These "flies" are not being created. They have always been there and we are merely exposing them as they flock to their suicidal deaths and as they come to murder their own in Iraq. After we've killed many more and continue to deplete their supply of "martyrs", we'll leave.

People like you are to blame for every terrorist bombing. And you are to blame because you lack conviction to do anything but look the other way and beg for the big bad terrorist to leave you alone after each attack. America has stepped up it's security and spy networks.

Again with your narrow mindedness? 9/11 is the fault of clerics, dictators and rich Saudi Arabs. They are to blame for the oppression in the Middle East and they are to blame for creating terrorist that believe that America is the reason they live in such a state. They are to blame for Al-Queda. "They" is Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, and Afghanistan. The entire place needs fumigated.

History is full of people that allow tyranny to thrive. The result from such toleration is World Wars and mass genocides. It's a lesson only America and a few allies have learned.

"If that had been done than maybe the London Bombers would have been discovered before planting their bombs. Blair is just as much to blame as Bush on that."

Stop being such a coward and living in denial by blaming the governments that are finally swinging back. Why don't you look towards the nations that have been the victims of terrorist attacks and are doing nothing. And why do they do nothing? Because they don't want to anger the big bad terrorists. It's cowardice at it's lowest form. Whatever you do, don't blame the bully....he might get mad.

1) 1972 Olympics hostage taking of 13 Isreali athletes
2) 1974 attack on an Israeli high school leaving 26 dead
3) 1974 TWA flight bombing killing 88.
4) 1975 Air France plane skyjacked. Israeli special forces rescue all but 3 hostages.
5) 1979 Tehran American Embassy attacked and 66 American hostages held.
6) 1979 Mosque in Mecca seized and 100s of hostages taken. Saudi and French military retake Mosque at a high price.
7) 1979 skyjacking and kidnapping of 66 Americans
8) 1980 Train Station bombing in Italy leaves 80 dead.
9) 1983 Embassy bombing in Beirut kills 63
10) 1983 Gulf Air Flight bombed killing 117.
11) 1983 Beirut Marine Bombing killed 241 Marines and a similar attack on a French barracks killing 58.
12) 1985 TWA Flight skyjacked and 153 civillians held hostage. One U.S. Sailor murdered.
13) 1985 Soviet Diplomats kidnapped and one is killed by Sunni Terrorists.
15) 1985 Egypt Air Flight skyjacked. 60 dead in rescue attempt.
16) 1985 Air India bombed killing 329.
17) 1985 Air Canada Aircraft bombed on the ground killing two in Japan.
18) 1985 Two seperate attacks in two seperate airports in Italy kills 16 total.
19) 1986 TWA bombing by Palestinians blow a hole in the cabin and 4 Americans are sucked out during the flight including one infant.
20) 1986 German Discotheque in Berlin bombed killing 3 U.S. servicemen and 230 others. America bombs Qadhafi in response.
21) 1986 Pan Am Flight hijacked. Terrorist open fire and kill 22 passengers.
22) 1987 North Korean Operatives plant a bomb on Korean Air Flight killing 115.
23) 1987 Barcelona Bar bombed killing 1 service man.
24) 1987 USO in Naples bombed killing 1 service man.
25) 1988 Pan Am Flight bombed killing 259 over Scotland.
26) 1989 UTA Flight bombed killing 170.
27) 1992 Israeli Embassy bombed killing 29.
28) 1993 World Trade Center in New York bombed killing 6 and wounding more than a thousand.
29) 1993 U.S. Army ambushed by Al-Qaeda during Peace Keeping Mission in Somalia.
30) 1994 Jewish Center bombed killing 86.
31) Saudi Arabia military compound bombed killing 40.
32) 1997 Palastinian gunman open fires at the Empire State Building killing one American.
33) 1997 Four U.S. business men are killed in Pakistan.
34) 1998 Two American Embassy bombings by Al-Queda kill 301.
35) 2001 World Trade Center destroyed and Pentagon attacked by three seperate air planes killing almost 3,000 on American soil.
36) 2005 Egyptian representative to Iraq kidnapped.
37) 2005 Bahrain envoy to Iraq attacked


I guess forgiveness always worked in the past didn't it? Grow a back bone or at least pretend to grow one and point your finger where it belongs.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
35) 2001 World Trade Center destroyed and Pentagon attacked by three seperate air planes killing almost 3,000 on American soil.

You are about the worst excuse for an American I have ever seen! Even our own phucking government has said there is NO connection between Iraq and 9/11! But you still try to link them with this act! Drop it, dude! Continuing to make comments like this, just shows your level of insanity!

 

[cnredd]

You are about the worst excuse for an American I have ever seen! Even our own phucking government has said there is NO connection between Iraq and 9/11! But you still try to link them with this act! Drop it, dude! Continuing to make comments like this, just shows your level of insanity!

Look who it is!

The one who who gives "pacifier" both of its meanings...

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
Stop being such a coward and living in denial by blaming the governments that are finally swinging back

Check out the link below. I'm interested to hear your comments about this subject. Notice I have not posted what it is about, because I don't want to make an issue out of this. I would just like to know, your thoughts, as someone in the military, what you think about this:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071105X.shtml