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Iraqi war tantamount to swatting flies

robin

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War in Iraq to defeat terror is like trying to kill off the entire world population of flies by standing in one country & swatting them. You aren't going to kill off the world population of flies like that... are you ?

With bad PR of Abu ghraib etc & by your very presence, you are just going to ensure more terrorists will be recruited. It's that simple. History shows us that these sorts of conflicts can go on for centuries. If you want the war to stop then stop fighting the war in this way.
Hitler was centred in Berlin & was a nationalist ideology rather than a religious one. Violence was the only way to defeat him becuase he was a direct threat to us. It was kill or be killed. Get to Berlin & that was the end of them.

However the terror threat is very different indeed. Religious ideologies have no location as such. They are diffuse throughout the world. Iraq is less than 1% of the earths land mass. Terror networks know no international boundaries. They are diffuse. It's a joke to think a war in Iraq is a war on terror. Utterly proposterous in fact. You are just fanning the flames of terror.
 
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PatriotSon

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This is the old, “If we just stop fighting, they’ll stop coming” argument. And it’s a dead issue. The war in Iraq is important for several reasons

1: By keeping the terrorists occupied fighting a war on “their turf” we can keep them on the run, and poring resources into that fight at home. This keeps them in the open, where we can fight them. This is a much better plan that just sitting around waiting to get hit again.

2: By being over there, we generate a great deal of intelligence. This is the key to wining the war on terror. The government’s decision in the 90’s to eliminate any involvement by the CIA with criminals in essence crippled the CIA’s ability to generate Intel. We are now building back up this vital asset to use against the terrorists.

3: The only way that you will ultimately defeat terrorism is to reeducate the population. You are right; this will take years, even decades. We will spend a generation fighting this war. But once you get fundamentalist teachings out of the classroom, and begin teaching math and science, you will see a change in the Arab world. Combine this with freedom and democracy, and you have the makings of a wonderful future in the Middle East. But in order for you to have that kind of effect, you must control the area. By working to institute a democracy in Iraq, we will create a foothold in Middle East with which to affect change in neighboring countries.

4: We have to start somewhere. The war on terror is not going to be faught on a battlefield. It will be faught in the streets. Whose streets? That all depends on how long we sit on our hands. I for one would rather be proactive, fighting in the streets of Iraq, then reactive fighting here at home.
 

nkgupta80

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Problem is, Iraq was much more secular, and religious fundementalism wasn't widespread there. Why not go into a countries like Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or even more so, Pakistan. These are countries where religious fundementalism is a staple part of every boy and girl's education. These are also countries were a majority of the extremist groups reside, and have a large foothold in the country's politics. These countries are "breeding grounds" for terrorism. So why not attack them.
 

beautymrgn

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IMO because it would be too much too soon. Besides Saddam needing to be removed, Iraq was a stagetic move. As you slowing change "less" hostile countries that surround the more hostile ones you have a much better chance of change. They will have the opportunity to change from within by being influence by their own so to speak.
 

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beautymrgn said:
IMO because it would be too much too soon. Besides Saddam needing to be removed, Iraq was a stagetic move. As you slowing change "less" hostile countries that surround the more hostile ones you have a much better chance of change. They will have the opportunity to change from within by being influence by their own so to speak.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more.
 

robin

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Think of Nam... two million killed in the so called name of Western freedom. After you got your asses deservedly kicked out of there, communism didn't spread any further or suddenly take over the world did it ? Yet the reason that war was fought was becuase the politicians said without the war on communism, communism would take over the world !
Yet it didn't.. did it ?
Gorbi ended the cold war & China has drifted towards capitalism. No thanks whatsoever to the murderous anti communist wars fought by the west or CIA treachery in the Americas.
Just shows the utter futility & immorality of the kind of chronic war fought on false premises based on lies & supposition from politicians. Which is precisely what the war in Iraq is.
 

teacher

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robin said:
Think of Nam... two million killed in the so called name of Western freedom. After you got your asses deservedly kicked out of there, communism didn't spread any further or suddenly take over the world did it ? Yet the reason that war was fought was becuase the politicians said without the war on communism, communism would take over the world !
Yet it didn't.. did it ?
Gorbi ended the cold war & China has drifted towards capitalism. No thanks whatsoever to the murderous anti communist wars fought by the west or CIA treachery in the Americas.
Just shows the utter futility & immorality of the kind of chronic war fought on false premises based on lies & supposition from politicians. Which is precisely what the war in Iraq is.
And I seriously doubt that our massive deterring presence in Europe had anything to do with keeping the reds at bay. More likely they just didn't like the weather. Or the French. Or their runny cheese. Or their berets. Their gay sounding language...but I digress. And you might want to take a better look a China. Keshi wo xiang ni jui buzhidao. Ni zema nema ben?

Gorbi ended the cold war? Since we are spouting opinions here is mine. Reagan ended the cold war by bankrupting the CCCP. He stood in front of the wall and told Gorbi to tear it down. It happened soon after. Coincidence I'm sure. 30 years ago the greatest concern in the US was nuclear war. Now it doesn't make the list.

So now on to the next big problem. You know that pesky little one that reared it's head on 9/11. Bet if the terrorists had it to do over they wouldn't have flown planes into our buildings thus WAKING THE SLEEPING GIANT. Better to keep blowing up Jewish children.

Gather from your posts your not an American. Don't worry. We will not ask for thanks when this terrorist problem is gone. Wonder how you would feel if you lost 3000 of your own one day in your backwater. Hate to say it like this (not really) but we are America. Don't really care what you think. But you have the right to say it here. Bet if someone took over your country you would be the first to cry foul and ask for US support. And we would be there. Liberating wherever while the world calls us imperialists for the time our forces occupy your backwater. If we were imperialists we would run Kuwait right about now don't you think? I think 9/11 changed a lot of minds in this country. We have been forced into being proactive. To bad it took 9/11 to bring on what I've been saying for years but....

A new era is here. When Iraq gets control of it's own security I venture to say we will go on to the next one. Sudan looks ripe. I could go on.

The UN has finally been exposed for the joke it always has been. We wont play that game anymore.

Lets list a few things since the gulf thing started.

1.Kuwait-liberated.
2.Afghanistan-liberated
3.Iraq-liberated
4.47% percent female voters in Afghanistan
5.Freedom of the press in Afghanistan
6.Iraqis holding up proudly their ink stained fingers.
7.Qaddafi disarmed right away. Can't say all the Arabs are dumb asses that can't see the writing on the walls.
8.Syria out of Lebanon.
9.Kuwait got it's first female in government.
10.Satellite dishes going up ever where. No longer is Al Jezerra and Madrases propaganda the only information source. This is VERY important.
11.Bagdad has a symphony orchestra. Wow.
12.Terrorists being swatted like flies hand over fist.
13.People like you exposed as publicly saying freedom for all not a good thing. Just for yourself I guess.
14.People like you now have to go back to Nam to try to make a point.

And while we dealing with pesky little things like facts. Instead of just saying Bush spouts lies how about you list those lies so you can be publicly taken to the woodshed.

And don't try to list past mistakes. Let's just deal with the way we are doing it now. Like I said. 9/11 was a big mistake on their part. Bring something of substance not just weak rhetoric. Class dismissed.
 

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robin said:
Gorbi ended the cold war & China has drifted towards capitalism.
Gorbi ended the Cold War robin? That's sheer poppycock. The communist Soviet Union imploded under the combined weight of its inhumane ideology, the percentage of GDP devoted to militarism, and the bloody debacle of its adventurism in Afghanistan.

I would suggest that you read the book "Memoirs" by Mikhail Gorbachev before you again engage in any delusional historical revisionism.

Rather than suffer the same fate as the USSR, China has *by necessity* amended its foreign and domestic economic policies. Have no liberal illusions though, China remains an autocratic and monolithic entity.

robin said:
No thanks whatsoever to the murderous anti communist wars fought by the west or CIA treachery in the Americas.
(Emphasis added)
You conveniently ignore the truism that it takes two to tango. Perhaps you should be a bit more subtle and contextually honest in your decidedly biased worldview.

 

robin

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Tashah said:
Gorbi ended the Cold War robin? That's sheer poppycock. The communist Soviet Union imploded under the combined weight of its inhumane ideology, the percentage of GDP devoted to militarism, and the bloody debacle of its adventurism in Afghanistan.
Either way, you admit then that the bloody wars fought against communism by the west, did not halt communism, since comminism did not spread any further when you left Nam. Something altogether different to killing 2 million Vietnamese brought a halt to communism.
No doubt the war on Terror (fly swat) being fought in Iraq will be shown to be just as futile in time.
 

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robin said:
Either way, you admit then that the bloody wars fought against communism by the west, did not halt communism, since comminism did not spread any further when you left Nam. Something altogether different to killing 2 million Vietnamese brought a halt to communism.
No doubt the war on Terror (fly swat) being fought in Iraq will be shown to be just as futile in time.
Address the points. Quit saying the same drivel repeatedly. I can do the same thing only let me show you how to do it easier.
 

teacher

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teacher said:
And I seriously doubt that our massive deterring presence in Europe had anything to do with keeping the reds at bay. More likely they just didn't like the weather. Or the French. Or their runny cheese. Or their berets. Their gay sounding language...but I digress. And you might want to take a better look a China. Keshi wo xiang ni jui buzhidao. Ni zema nema ben?

Gorbi ended the cold war? Since we are spouting opinions here is mine. Reagan ended the cold war by bankrupting the CCCP. He stood in front of the wall and told Gorbi to tear it down. It happened soon after. Coincidence I'm sure. 30 years ago the greatest concern in the US was nuclear war. Now it doesn't make the list.

So now on to the next big problem. You know that pesky little one that reared it's head on 9/11. Bet if the terrorists had it to do over they wouldn't have flown planes into our buildings thus WAKING THE SLEEPING GIANT. Better to keep blowing up Jewish children.

Gather from your posts your not an American. Don't worry. We will not ask for thanks when this terrorist problem is gone. Wonder how you would feel if you lost 3000 of your own one day in your backwater. Hate to say it like this (not really) but we are America. Don't really care what you think. But you have the right to say it here. Bet if someone took over your country you would be the first to cry foul and ask for US support. And we would be there. Liberating wherever while the world calls us imperialists for the time our forces occupy your backwater. If we were imperialists we would run Kuwait right about now don't you think? I think 9/11 changed a lot of minds in this country. We have been forced into being proactive. To bad it took 9/11 to bring on what I've been saying for years but....

A new era is here. When Iraq gets control of it's own security I venture to say we will go on to the next one. Sudan looks ripe. I could go on.

The UN has finally been exposed for the joke it always has been. We wont play that game anymore.

Lets list a few things since the gulf thing started.

1.Kuwait-liberated.
2.Afghanistan-liberated
3.Iraq-liberated
4.47% percent female voters in Afghanistan
5.Freedom of the press in Afghanistan
6.Iraqis holding up proudly their ink stained fingers.
7.Qaddafi disarmed right away. Can't say all the Arabs are dumb asses that can't see the writing on the walls.
8.Syria out of Lebanon.
9.Kuwait got it's first female in government.
10.Satellite dishes going up ever where. No longer is Al Jezerra and Madrases propaganda the only information source. This is VERY important.
11.Bagdad has a symphony orchestra. Wow.
12.Terrorists being swatted like flies hand over fist.
13.People like you exposed as publicly saying freedom for all not a good thing. Just for yourself I guess.
14.People like you now have to go back to Nam to try to make a point.

And while we dealing with pesky little things like facts. Instead of just saying Bush spouts lies how about you list those lies so you can be publicly taken to the woodshed.

And don't try to list past mistakes. Let's just deal with the way we are doing it now. Like I said. 9/11 was a big mistake on their part. Bring something of substance not just weak rhetoric. Class dismissed.
See how easy and quick that was. Now address the points.
 

beautymrgn

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That's so funny. Bloody war. Is there any other kind of war? Is 'bloody' there for dramatic purposes?
 

robin

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How about Jews blowing up Palestinian children ?
Or do you only care about Jewish ones ?
I care about all of them.
 

beautymrgn

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Ahhh! Cursing in English. See? This is why we need to keep you around...as a translator! rofl
 

Tashah

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robin said:
Either way, you admit then that the bloody wars fought against communism by the west, did not halt communism, since comminism did not spread any further when you left Nam.
(Emphasis added)
Perhaps you can surprise me a bit here robin. Can you note any war in history which was sanitary and sterile rather than bloody and horiffic?

Addressing your revisionism that communism did not spread any further after Nam... Africa and Central America easily come to mind. Must I list them by rote for you?

BTW... I'm beginng to play with the notion that you are actually Soviet Guy in drag.

robin said:
How about Jews blowing up Palestinian children? Or do you only care about Jewish ones? I care about all of them.
Firstly, I find it interesting (and illuminating) that you now find it necessary to morph a thread you yourself initiated (Iraqi war tantamount to swatting flies) into something else entirely.

Secondly, you state that you care about *all* children... yet you phrased your statement above with a subtle yet implicit bias. Freudian slip? An opportunistic liberal occasion to mentally masturbate?

Please attend to your historical and semantical education first before you again feel the pressing urge to initiate a thread.

 
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robin

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Tashah said:
Addressing your revisionism that communism did not spread any further after Nam... Africa and Central America easily come to mind. Must I list them by rote for you?
WTF did stopping the war in Nam have to do with cimmunism spreading in Africa ?
I said stopping the war in Nam didn't lead to communism spreading throught indo China. You word twisting *****er
 

Tashah

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Post #17
robin said:
I said stopping the war in Nam didn't lead to communism spreading throught indo China.
(Emphasis added)
Two of the nice features about Debate Politics is that the posts are numbered in ascending order and they are quotable.

Above in Post #17 you add the qualifier indo China

However, let's now take a short jaunt down DB Memory Lane...

Post #6
robin said:
After you got your asses deservedly kicked out of there, communism didn't spread any further or suddenly take over the world did it?
(Emphasis added)
Strange, no mention here of a specific locale or geographical area. Sigh...let's try again...

Post #9
robin said:
...since comminism did not spread any further when you left Nam.
(Emphasis added)
Perhaps your monitor works very differently than mine, but once again there is no mention whatsoever of a specific locale... indo China

You twice stated that communism didn't spread any further after the United States disengaged from Vietnam. This is a patent falshood and crude historical revisionism. Communism did indeed make inroads into Africa (Angola for one example) and Central America (Nicaragua as another example).

robin said:
You word twisting *****er
Quite the contrary. As anyone can plainly see by scrolling or reading the exact quotes above... it is you who engage in blatant and self-serving word twisting.

One last item. The childish use of asterisks as a cover for profane self-expression only serves to highlight your incredible lack of vocabulary skills.


 

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Gorbi ended the cold war? Since we are spouting opinions here is mine. Reagan ended the cold war by bankrupting the CCCP. He stood in front of the wall and told Gorbi to tear it down. It happened soon after. Coincidence I'm sure. 30 years ago the greatest concern in the US was nuclear war. Now it doesn't make the list
First of all,one man did not end the cold war.Thats illogical bs,that takes away from the thousands of dissenters in East Europe and Russia that died in the Gulags and at the hands of Soviet intelligence.Obviously they deserve no praise(and yet a half wit with nothing going for him besides great teeth does!)

Brzezinski backed the Afghani's against the USSR.
Spending the USSR into bankruptcy a policy before Reagan came to power.
USSR was doomed when it fell behind the US technogically in the 70's.


So now on to the next big problem. You know that pesky little one that reared it's head on 9/11. Bet if the terrorists had it to do over they wouldn't have flown planes into our buildings thus WAKING THE SLEEPING GIANT. Better to keep blowing up Jewish children
Al-Qaeda blows up Jewish children?

Wonder how you would feel if you lost 3000 of your own one day in your backwater
Of course he might be Irish,Spanish,Indonesian,Isreali,Palestianan,Austrailia etc.Not that Iraq has anything to do with 9/11 of course.

Bet if someone took over your country you would be the first to cry foul and ask for US support. And we would be there. Liberating wherever while the world calls us imperialists for the time our forces occupy your backwater.
So you want/think the US is the policeman of the world?You think if 'his' country was invaded the US would go after the perpetrators? :roll:

A new era is here. When Iraq gets control of it's own security I venture to say we will go on to the next one. Sudan looks ripe. I could go on
Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?Sudan!

The UN has finally been exposed for the joke it always has been. We wont play that game anymore.
The US hasn't been playing that game anyway,since the US,France,China,Russia and the UK play there own game.
The UN is what it is because of what the big 5,including the US,made it.

1.Kuwait-liberated
Umm would this be the country that is ruled by a royal family and women regurly harrassed.

2.Afghanistan-liberated
3.Iraq-liberated
Both governments are attempting to govern ungovernable lands.The authority in the Sunni lands in Iraq is the barrel of a US rifle not the local member of government or the state local police.The authority in Afghanistan are the local unforgiving tribal leaders and the NATO and US planes.Whatever you may say the Iraqi governments power dwindles severly out east and north.Karzai has no power outside of Kabul,instead he is subjected to the whim of local tribal leaders,whose loyalty will change at a second with the right kind of bribe.

How can the Shia rulers get the nationalist Sunni to co-operate and join the democracy when the government is held together by violence and curfews and foreign guns?When this new democracy is creating rabid inflation,a poor quality of life,high unemployment and a complete breakdown of authority?How are the Shia in Baghdad and the south supposed to be enthusiastic about a weak government,poor electricity,poor drinking water and no end to daily destruction?What made the US think that a native democracy in Iraq was going to be supported when it needs foreigners that were behind the bombings of Baghdad and the cruel and horrible sanctions to keep it in power?The US was despised in Iraq because of ther sanctions,sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi kids and strenghtened Saddams grip on the country. Most importantly what made the US think a country united only by a firm hand,a country divided heavily by both tribal and religious,a country with a horrible infastructure,a country with one of the most bloody histories ever could be created into a pioneering democracy?The Iraqi and Arabic people don't see a great and blossoming democracy like those in the west but a weak and disastrous government that is failing to provide its people with the necessities of life.How can democracy spread under such circumstances like the neo-cons said it would?Without stability,extremist Islam and violence is growing.

Afghanistan is the same.Resurgent nationalists are growing and fighting.Poppy growth is getting higher.The government lacks power outside of Kabul,unless you count NATO/US guns and traitorous war criminals.Even in Kabul Karzai needs to be flanked by dozens of bodyguards before he adresses a crowd.Its the same story as in Iraq.Poverty,unemployment,weak government,extremism,violence,foreigners holding the authority etc.

If this was the plan for Afghanistan and Iraq,democracy before stability,then it has failed woefully and instead promoted extreme islam and a hate for the US and mistrust for democracy.Iraq was the wrong place to start and stabilty is needed before democracy.Thats obvious now.Not only has democracy proven itself oppressive and weak in Iraq and Afghanistan,it has failed to spread anywhere in the ME.So the neo-cons experiment has failed terribly


4.47% percent female voters in Afghanistan
5.Freedom of the press in Afghanistan
In the Tribal areas like Herat as well i suppose. :roll:

6.Iraqis holding up proudly their ink stained fingers.
Which hasn't changed anything.Democracy is useless without a constitution to uphold the law of society and liberal institutions that progress society.

7.Qaddafi disarmed right away. Can't say all the Arabs are dumb asses that can't see the writing on the walls.
Except Kaddafi was calling for talks with the US moths before the invasion.Not that he had a proper WMD system anyway.Not that he has actually stopped horribly repressing his people either.

8.Syria out of Lebanon
Except Syria is still killing journalists and politicians.Hezbollah,heavily funded by Syria,is still in the Lebanon and is very popular shown by its recent successes in the elections.Syria has managed to get the world off its back and keep a firm stronghold in Lebanon.

9.Kuwait got it's first female in government.
See above.How is this the US's doing?

10.Satellite dishes going up ever where. No longer is Al Jezerra and Madrases propaganda the only information source. This is VERY important.
Right...

11.Bagdad has a symphony orchestra. Wow.
:roll:


And while we dealing with pesky little things like facts. Instead of just saying Bush spouts lies how about you list those lies so you can be publicly taken to the woodshed.
Saying there was WMD's in Iraq when there wasn't.Duh.
 

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robin said:
Teacher
How about Jews blowing up Palestinian children ?
I mean TARGETING OF CHILDREN. Not collateral damage. Targic to be sure, but not on par with TARGETING of CHILDREN by any stetch of the imagination. Give reasonable proof and my support of the Jews will fold quicker than an origami master on cyrstal meth. (Yea, that's mine)
Or do you only care about Jewish ones ?
That might fall under an "ad hominem" attack, careful, you may not be as adroit at walking the line as me, teacher, tester of the envelope.
I care about all of them.
I truly hope so, but to on the safe side I just might go check your posts anyway. You see, for me, teacher, the TARGETING of CHILDREN is my most important litmus test. All other considerations after that fact are moot. If someone TARGETED MY CHILDREN I would be covered head to toe, day and night, for a long time, with the blood of such. Politics, policy, the law, international opinion ect. would matter not to me.
 

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Hmmmm. Yet another whose very first post is aimed at me, teacher, target of first posters. Creepy. But maybe it means I'm doing my job.
First of all,one man did not end the cold war.Thats illogical bs,that takes away from the thousands of dissenters in East Europe and Russia that died in the Gulags and at the hands of Soviet intelligence.Obviously they deserve no praise(and yet a half wit with nothing going for him besides great teeth does!)

Brzezinski backed the Afghani's against the USSR.
Spending the USSR into bankruptcy a policy before Reagan came to power.
USSR was doomed when it fell behind the US technogically in the 70's.

Okay, yet another whose argument lays much in semantics. For you I will be focused and exacting with my wording. Good points. How about this then. Reagan put the nail in the coffin. Go check some of Gorbi's statements around the time of the Recnyavick summit.


Al-Qaeda blows up Jewish children?
Again with the semantics. Try this. If Al-Qaeda had not done 9/11 then terrorists in general would not have the eyes of the US focused so clearly on them. The status quo would still be in effect.


Of course he might be Irish,Spanish,Indonesian,Isreali,Palestianan,Austrailia etc.Not that Iraq has anything to do with 9/11 of course.
Iraq has a lot to do with 9/11 in so far as there is now a shining bastion of free democracy in the middle east which may give the oppressed in that region before unimagined hope. Big, long term stuff.



So you want/think the US is the policeman of the world?You think if 'his' country was invaded the US would go after the perpetrators? :roll:
A new era is upon us. Short answer. Yes. Especially if, like I said, they asked.



Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?Sudan!
Joke? Yes Sudan. A refuge for terrorists. Not in a military fashion I think. Just a little US pressure there might change some things. After all, they allready had a cemocratic government in place, just suspended by martial law. Yes, Sudan next.




The US hasn't been playing that game anyway,since the US,France,China,Russia and the UK play there own game.
The UN is what it is because of what the big 5,including the US,made it.
Like I said, new era. I never agreed with the old status quo. There's a new cowboy in charge and he's doing things a little different. :applaud W. :clap:


Umm would this be the country that is ruled by a royal family and women regurly harrassed.
Which now finally has a female in givernment. Baby steps for sure, yet, a step none the less.


Both governments are attempting to govern ungovernable lands
Well, sinse you deem them totaly ungovernable, I change my stance, RUN AWAY. Little Monty Python for you. For more Monty Python view one of my recent Top Tens in the basement. Monty's phrases can work so well in multiple situations. And now for something compleatly different.

.
The authority in the Sunni lands in Iraq is the barrel of a US rifle not the local member of government or the state local police.
And I take it you mean it can never be delt with? Oh my. RUN AWAY.
The authority in Afghanistan are the local unforgiving tribal leaders and the NATO and US planes.Whatever you may say the Iraqi governments power dwindles severly out east and north.Karzai has no power outside of Kabul,instead he is subjected to the whim of local tribal leaders,whose loyalty will change at a second with the right kind of bribe.
Again, baby steps. Do you think that if we can't change it overnight then we shouldn't try?

How can the Shia rulers get the nationalist Sunni to co-operate and join the democracy when the government is held together by violence and curfews and foreign guns?
When our guns leave it will be the guns of the ELECTED government.
When this new democracy is creating rabid inflation,a poor quality of life,high unemployment and a complete breakdown of authority?How are the Shia in Baghdad and the south supposed to be enthusiastic about a weak government,poor electricity,poor drinking water and no end to daily destruction?
Here class we see the problems of getting your news from one sourse that spills your version of the truth only.
What made the US think that a native democracy in Iraq was going to be supported when it needs foreigners that were behind the bombings of Baghdad and the cruel and horrible sanctions to keep it in power?
Again, didn't they have an election or something?
The US was despised in Iraq because of ther sanctions,sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi kids and strenghtened Saddams grip on the country.
US not UN sanctions. Yea, RUN AWAY.
Most importantly what made the US think a country united only by a firm hand,
That firm hand being a dispicable despot.
a country divided heavily by both tribal and religious,a country with a horrible infastructure,a country with one of the most bloody histories ever could be created into a pioneering democracy?
A country tying to adopt a constitution that adresses all these concerns.
The Iraqi and Arabic people don't see a great and blossoming democracy like those in the west but a weak and disastrous government that is failing to provide its people with the necessities of life.
Blanket statement not supported by anything other than your hatred of theUS.
How can democracy spread under such circumstances like the neo-cons said it would?
By giving those who live there the power to change it.
Without stability,extremist Islam and violence is growing.
Growing, I think not. Just set free by the very freedom they have been given. Many of these growing numbers you speak of are foriegn fighters scared s**tless by the very thought of freedom near them, jepordizing their hold on power.

Afghanistan is the same.Resurgent nationalists are growing and fighting.Poppy growth is getting higher.The government lacks power outside of Kabul,unless you count NATO/US guns and traitorous war criminals.Even in Kabul Karzai needs to be flanked by dozens of bodyguards before he adresses a crowd.Its the same story as in Iraq.Poverty,unemployment,weak government,extremism,violence,foreigners holding the authority etc.
Just apply what I wrote about Iraq to this dilema.
If this was the plan for Afghanistan and Iraq,democracy before stability,then it has failed woefully and instead promoted extreme islam and a hate for the US and mistrust for democracy.Iraq was the wrong place to start and stabilty is needed before democracy.Thats obvious now.Not only has democracy proven itself oppressive and weak in Iraq and Afghanistan,it has failed to spread anywhere in the ME.So the neo-cons experiment has failed terribly
Now your putting the cart before the horse. You r statement is a catch-22.
You realy like those all encompassing blanket statements don't you?




In the Tribal areas like Herat as well i suppose. :roll:
Gotta read about that one I guess. teacher can and will study. A difference between us I surmise.


Which hasn't changed anything.Democracy is useless without a constitution to uphold the law of society and liberal institutions that progress society.
That's just plain weak. They are trying to adopt a constution as we speak.



Except Kaddafi was calling for talks with the US moths before the invasion.Not that he had a proper WMD system anyway.Not that he has actually stopped horribly repressing his people either.
Baby steps.


Except Syria is still killing journalists and politicians.Hezbollah,heavily funded by Syria,is still in the Lebanon and is very popular shown by its recent successes in the elections.Syria has managed to get the world off its back and keep a firm stronghold in Lebanon.
Yet they withdrew. Again baby steps.







Saying there was WMD's in Iraq when there wasn't.Duh
No, absolutely, never was. Guess the UN and EVERYBODY was wrong there. At least I managed to slip a little Monty Python into this dry debate. Yea teacher.
 

robin

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Ah..crying name calling rather than dealing with the fact you've been proved wrong as regards communisim not spreading in indochina after you rightfully got your asses kicked out of Nam.
My annalogy that you are in effect in Iraq trying to kill the entire world population of flies by standing in one country & swatting them is absolutely correct.
You just deal with it with personal remarks & trivia... anything to avoid the stark truth eh ?
Yeah no game... no game worth playing. This is supposed to be a debate not a game.
You are one of these people superficially clever at semantics but an idiot when it comes to facts & the truth & reasoned debate. All show & no substance.
 
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teacher

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[
QUOTE=robin]Teacher
Ah..crying name calling rather than dealing with the fact you've been proved wrong as regards communisim not spreading in indochina after you rightfully got your asses kicked out of Nam.
Think you have me confused with someone else there slick. I think you just skim then spew.

My annalogy that you are in effect in Iraq trying to kill the entire world population of flies by standing in one country & swatting them is absolutely correct.
Have you seen our swatters?
You just deal with it with personal remarks & trivia... anything to avoid the stark truth eh ?
Oh you definitly don't read do you. Go back to #7. Yes it's to you. Your reply?
Yeah no game... no game worth playing. This is supposed to be a debate not a game.
Keep digging.

You are one of these people superficially clever at semantics but an idiot when it comes to facts & the truth & reasoned debate. All show & no substance
Oh yea. Your done for. Read this whole thread genius. Dispute my points one by one like I do yours. The loquaciously challenged shouldn't try to be clever with their prose. I'm going to make a prediction here. You will either just go away or most certainly wont challenge my points as I have done your. Go back read. How like you your crow cooked? teacher is serving. You should pick on people your own size. Small, is the size of Pez....mmmm....sweet,tasty Pez...which just might improve your anger. Should have been nicer. I'll be picking on you for a while now.

Oh look, I almost missed it. You called me idiot. My turn to slip one in before the gavel comes down. Dim witted slope fore headed mouth breathing knuckle dragger your playing in the big leagues now. Now where is that damn gavel. This kind of behavior is uncalled for, damn it. See how this works?
 
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teacher

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Oh and robin. We will be having a little chat about Nam soon. I'm letting you slide on that one for the moment. I look at Nam like I do "9/11 was an inside job".
Might want to watch your step on that one. Fair warning.

Might want to leave China alone also. Wode zhongwen de laoshi duo shi zhongguo ren le. And that is NOT Chinese for "you so slow".

Now where is that damn gavel?
 
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