Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

Montecresto · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
So Saddam Hussein has now been re-invented as a good and benevolent leader responsive to all versions of Islam?

Saddam hussein provided a level of security in Iraq absent since 2003. Under his leadership there was no terrorist groups in Iraq, AQ followed the U.S. into Iraq from Afghanistan, growing in stature until they organized as the Islamic State in Iraq in 2006 (ISI). Ironically the same year that the U.S. NIE concluded that the invasion and occupation of Iraq caused a rise in terrorism globally, and made America less safe. Again, even the GOP congress now considers that war a mistake.

Montecresto · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Tazmanian Devil said:
Your characterization and appraisal of Conservatives or those you call, "the fringe right" is incorrect.

And your entire premise rests on that flawed foundation.

We would absolutely trust Obama when he says things which we use our God given senses to know he is being truthful about.

Your mental processes are on display.

Obama has been proven wrong on Iraq though. Which means your God gave you faulty insight!

Grant · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Helix said:
ok. and i posted an article that outlined the instability of the region during the time period which your are claiming that the region was stable.

You were referring to 2011? That was when it was declared to be "stable" by Barack Obama. And it was as "stable" as at any time in its lengthy history.

so, you're not for retaking and occupying the region? if that's the case, we agree.

Although ISIS must be stopped I do not agree that Americans should do it alone. Australian, British and Canadian Forces are involved in air strikes with the Canadians, as far as I know, the only ones with "boots on the ground".

Main article: Operation Impact

The Canadian contribution has been codenamed Operation Impact by the Canadian Department of National Defence.[309][310] Canadian aircraft left for the Middle East to join in airstrikes on 21 October. In total, six CF-18 fighter jets, an Airbus CC-150 Polaris air-to-air refueling tanker and two CP-140 Aurora surveillance aircraft were sent, along with 700 military personnel.

Canadian CF-18 fighter jets completed their first operational flights departing from Kuwait on 31 October.[311] The first Canadian airstrikes began on 2 November.[312] Canada also flew an extra CF-18 to Kuwait to be used as a spare if the need arises, however a maximum of six are authorized to fly with the coalition missions.[313]

On 4 November 2014, Canadian Air Force CF-18s successfully destroyed ISIL construction equipment using GBU-12 bombs. The construction equipment was being used to divert the Euphrates River to deny villages water, and to flood roads, diverting traffic to areas with IEDs.[314]

On 12 November 2014, Canadian jets destroyed ISIL artillery just outside the Northern Iraqi town of Baiji.[315] Airstrikes continued throughout December and into January 2015 totaling 28 strike missions.[316] It was then reported that Canadian special forces troops, which had been highlighting targets for airstrikes, had engaged in fighting after coming under attack.[316][317]

On 19 January 2015, Canadian special operations forces came under ISIL attack for the first time in Iraq over the last week, and returned sniper fire to “neutralize” the threat. Canadians are “enabling airstrikes from the ground,” meaning they are actively finding targets for jets flying overhead.[318]

On 29 January 2015, Canadian special forces in Iraq came under fire from ISIL forces, causing the Canadian troops to return fire, killing some ISIL militants.[319] On 6 March, a Canadian soldier was killed in a friendly fire incident by Kurdish forces while returning to an observation post.[192]

On 8 April 2015, two CF-18s carried out their first airstrike against ISIL in Syria, hitting one of the groups garrisons.[320]

From 2 Nov 2014 to 13 May 2015 the Canadian armed forces struck 80 ISIS fighting positions, 19 ISIS Vehicles, and 10 storage facilities.Military intervention against ISIL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i was just curious to see if you had really thought about the details of these policies. if you are for more interventionism, then all of these issues are relevant.

There already is 'intervention'. The question is one of size and will.

US Conservative · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
You were referring to 2011? That was when it was declared to be "stable" by Barack Obama. And it was as "stable" as at any time in its lengthy history.

Although ISIS must be stopped I do not agree that Americans should do it alone. Australian, British and Canadian Forces are involved in air strikes with the Canadians, as far as I know, the only ones with "boots on the ground".

There already is 'intervention'. The question is one of size and will.

The Canadians are fine warriors and actually step up to a challenge.

Americans would do the same-but we have a weak leader.

JANFU · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Tazmanian Devil said:
Your characterization and appraisal of Conservatives or those you call, "the fringe right" is incorrect.

And your entire premise rests on that flawed foundation.

We would absolutely trust Obama when he says things which we use our God given senses to know he is being truthful about.

Your mental processes are on display.

That is one ugly sig line.Hateful to say the least

Grant · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Montecresto said:
Saddam hussein provided a level of security in Iraq absent since 2003. Under his leadership there was no terrorist groups in Iraq, AQ followed the U.S. into Iraq from Afghanistan, growing in stature until they organized as the Islamic State in Iraq in 2006 (ISI). Ironically the same year that the U.S. NIE concluded that the invasion and occupation of Iraq caused a rise in terrorism globally, and made America less safe. Again, even the GOP congress now considers that war a mistake.

"Level of security"??? He had an 8 year war with Iran in which over a million people died with many thousands more injured, used mustard gas and WMD during this period, invaded Kuwait later, committed genocide against the Kurds, murdered any and all opposition on suspicions alone, allowed "Rape Rooms" for his degenerate sons, had mass graves everywhere, committed long term ecological damage, and you claim there was a "level of security"?? The question is "For Whom"??

Who was secure when Saddam Hussein was Dictator?? Are you unaware of how he was tried and judged by his own people??

Iran

Tazmanian Devil · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
So Saddam Hussein has now been re-invented as a good and benevolent leader responsive to all versions of Islam?

Lindsey Graham (as the only candidate ready to be POTUS on Day One!) tells John Roberts of Fox News why he says Saddam "needed to go."

Grant · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Montecresto said:
Obama has been proven wrong on Iraq though. Which means your God gave you faulty insight!

Obama was certainly proved wrong in leaving Iraq. That should be general knowledge in a couple of years.

Tazmanian Devil · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Montecresto said:
Obama has been proven wrong on Iraq though. Which means your God gave you faulty insight!

:failpail:

Typically, Muslims think like that.

Kafirs, not so much.

Tazmanian Devil · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

JANFU said:
That is one ugly sig line.Hateful to say the least

I can understand how popular culture and the LW media would lead you to that belief.

But it is off topic.

Best regards.

Taz

Montecresto · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
Obama was certainly proved wrong in leaving Iraq. That should be general knowledge in a couple of years.

That wasn't the topic, but rarely are you up to speed.

Montecresto · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Tazmanian Devil said:
:failpail:

Typically, Muslims think like that.

Kafirs, not so much.

Your hatred of all Muslims is ugly.

JANFU · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Tazmanian Devil said:
I can understand how popular culture and the LW media would lead you to that belief.

But it is off topic.

Best regards.

Taz

Not a belief, more like fact.
And I like facts.

Fact -Bush screwed the pooch on Iraq.
Fact -Iraq now a client state of Iran.
Fact - The US could have kept troops on the ground for the next 20 years and still have the same results today, only 20 years later.
Fact - Iraq is now breaking apart.

Helix · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
You were referring to 2011? That was when it was declared to be "stable" by Barack Obama. And it was as "stable" as at any time in its lengthy history.

Obama was wrong. it wasn't stable.

Grant said:
Although ISIS must be stopped I do not agree that Americans should do it alone. Australian, British and Canadian Forces are involved in air strikes with the Canadians, as far as I know, the only ones with "boots on the ground".

IS is the responsibility of Saudi Arabia. they need to assemble a military force / coalition in the region and do their own job for a change.

Grant said:
There already is 'intervention'. The question is one of size and will.

i'm aware of that. i support bringing them all home. if IS is defeated, something even worse will follow, as is usually the case in this region. i don't believe that the problem can be solved by external entities, occupation, puppet governments, or anything else that has been tried so far. the region will have to form its own immune system to attack the tumor. it has not done so yet because those in charge there can just sit there waiting for the US to arrive, and then they can spend the oil money on themselves. i'm tired of us rewarding that behavior. meanwhile, there is a lot to fix right here at home that i'm told we can't afford to do. the same people who argue that are willing to put endless amounts of money into interventionism, though, as long as their taxes don't have to go up to fund it. i don't believe them anymore.

jmotivator · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
So Saddam Hussein has now been re-invented as a good and benevolent leader responsive to all versions of Islam?

Amazing, isn't it?

Tazmanian Devil · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Helix said:
Obama was wrong. it wasn't stable.

Semantics.

I'm not a medical professional (nor do I play one online) but in a medical emergency critically injured patients can often not be transported to a hospital for intensive life saving care until they are, first, stabilized on the scene.

Iraq was stable enough for Obama to pull out but not stable enough to avoid the hell that GWB (whose popularity in a CNN poll today shows as higher than Obama's!) predicted would befall Iraq unless a supporting force was left there to prevent.

George W. Bush was right about Iraq pullout

By Marc A. Thiessen
September 8, 2014

When former President George W. Bush makes a rare visit to Washington today, he won’t criticize President Obama for the bloodletting Obama unleashed with his withdrawal from Iraq. After leaving office, Bush promised Obama his silence. He is a man of his word.

But if Bush did speak out, here is what he ought to say:

I told you so.

In the summer of 2007, Bush warned of the dire consequence of pulling U.S. troops out of Iraq against the advice of our commanders on the ground. All of Washington was telling Bush that the surge he had launched would fail and that the time had come to withdraw from Iraq and accept defeat.

At a White House news conference on July 12, 2007, Bush declared: “I know some in Washington would like us to start leaving Iraq now. To begin withdrawing before our commanders tell us we’re ready would be dangerous for Iraq, for the region and for the United States. It would mean surrendering the future of Iraq to al-Qaeda. It would mean that we’d be risking mass killings on a horrific scale. It would mean we’d allow the terrorists to establish a safe haven in Iraq to replace the one they lost in Afghanistan. It would mean we’d be increasing the probability that American troops would have to return at some later date to confront an enemy that is even more dangerous.”

He had no idea at the time how prophetic his words would be.

George W. Bush was right about Iraq pullout - The Washington Post

And you will note that the Washington Post has never been a big W supporter.

Grant · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Helix said:
Obama was wrong. it wasn't stable.

Where was the instability in 2011?

IS is the responsibility of Saudi Arabia. they need to assemble a military force / coalition in the region and do their own job for a change.

That's just wishful thinking. I wish the entire civilized world turned on ISIS but that is just as unlikely as your wish.

i'm aware of that. i support bringing them all home. if IS is defeated, something even worse will follow, as is usually the case in this region.

What do you think might be worse than ISIS? No doubt nuclear weapons in the hands of these religious fanatics could be worse but that appears inevitable anyway.

i don't believe that the problem can be solved by external entities, occupation, puppet governments, or anything else that has been tried so far.

Occupation has noot been tried sufficiently to make that judgment. In 2011 Iraq was relatively stable and had the military stayed, as they strongly suggested, then we wouldn't have what we have today.

the region will have to form its own immune system to attack the tumor.

"The region" is spreading throughout the world.

it has not done so yet because those in charge there can just sit there waiting for the US to arrive, and then they can spend the oil money on themselves. i'm tired of us rewarding that behavior. meanwhile, there is a lot to fix right here at home that i'm told we can't afford to do. the same people who argue that are willing to put endless amounts of money into interventionism, though, as long as their taxes don't have to go up to fund it. i don't believe them anymore.

I can understand your skepticism. The lies are coming from every direction.

Grant · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

What a coincidence! Here are some of the lies Obama made in 2011. Or maybe he was just stupid. Either way it is a modern tragedy.

9 quotes from Obama’s 2011 “Remarks on the End of the War in Iraq” that show his total lack of foresight « Hot Air

Montecresto · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
"Level of security"??? He had an 8 year war with Iran in which over a million people died with many thousands more injured, used mustard gas and WMD during this period, invaded Kuwait later, committed genocide against the Kurds, murdered any and all opposition on suspicions alone, allowed "Rape Rooms" for his degenerate sons, had mass graves everywhere, committed long term ecological damage, and you claim there was a "level of security"?? The question is "For Whom"??

Who was secure when Saddam Hussein was Dictator?? Are you unaware of how he was tried and judged by his own people??

Iran

Bush "broke" Iraq as Powell warned him. Powell endorsed Obama in 2008!

Helix · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Tazmanian Devil said:
Semantics.

I'm not a medical professional (nor do I play one online) but in a medical emergency critically injured patients can often not be transported to a hospital for intensive life saving care until they are, first, stabilized on the scene.

Iraq was stable enough for Obama to pull out but not stable enough to avoid the hell that GWB (whose popularity in a CNN poll today shows as higher than Obama's!) predicted would befall Iraq unless a supporting force was left there to prevent.

George W. Bush was right about Iraq pullout - The Washington Post

And you will note that the Washington Post has never been a big W supporter.

i don't believe that George W. Bush had nefarious intent. in fact, quite the opposite. however, he believed that this was a winnable war long term. it was possible for an external force to depose Saddam Hussein. turning Iraq into a long term stable western style democracy using external force is not possible, though, especially when you don't take the history of sectarian / tribal conflicts into account. Afghanistan is a similar situation.

Tazmanian Devil · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Montecresto said:
Your hatred of all Muslims is ugly.

How could you honestly say I hate all Muslims?

:thinking

Montecresto · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Tazmanian Devil said:
How could you honestly say I hate all Muslims?

:thinking

:lamo just every post of yours.

jmotivator · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Montecresto said:
Let's settle it.

Scientific surveys of Iraqi deaths resulting from the first four years of the Iraq War found that between 151,000 to over one million Iraqis died as a result of conflict during this time. A later study, published in 2011, found that approximately 500,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the conflict since the invasion.

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hah! You are trying to "settle" a dispute that only you are involved in.

But I will play, I was quoting statistics of civilians killed by Saddam and his regime as reported by reliable sources.

In your report the IBC did a study of the civilian deaths caused by both sides during the conflict and found that 7,419 civilians were killed during the major combat phase of the mission ending April 30, 2003. In total IBC tallies 120,816 total verified civilian deaths during the time the US forces were in Iraq. This is an under-count, but it is the only study provided by your source. How about I more than double it for sake of argument to 250,000 civilians killed in Iraq from 2003 to 2012 AND ignore the IBC audit of their 2005 figures that attributed only 37% of deaths to the US coalition operations. So I am taking the studies high estimate and multiplying that by 6 to get the US caused casualties, for the sake of argument. What point would you like to make with that figure?

Tazmanian Devil · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Helix said:
i don't believe that George W. Bush had nefarious intent. in fact, quite the opposite. however, he believed that this was a winnable war long term. it was possible for an external force to depose Saddam Hussein. turning Iraq into a long term stable western style democracy using external force is not possible, though, especially when you don't take the history of sectarian / tribal conflicts into account. Afghanistan is a similar situation.

I'm not a huge fan of playing the blame game, but I can forgive GWB's ignorance of Islam at the time because academic Jihadists had assured OUR academics that Jihad was merely a form of spiritual yoga.

And when anyone asked anyone who SHOULD have known the truth about Islam no one would have had a clue that Muslims wouldn't be just like people anywhere else in the world where military force could and had been successful in accomplishing what Bush hoped to accomplish in Iraq.

The reality we now understand is that Kafirs and Kafir governments and Kafir military forces in/on Islamic lands are absolutely taboo and those affiliated with them are seen as hated apostates and worthy of a death sentence.

And that is why I NOW support a full and complete disengagement in the M.E. And all attempts to change their nature or governments will fail when we understand the deeply entrenched belief and allegiance the people there all have to Islamic doctrine and law and culture and history and their Prophet.

Helix · Jun 3, 2015

Re: Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS

Grant said:
Where was the instability in 2011?

did you read the article i posted? if not, here's another.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/an-unstable-divided-land.html?_r=0

and one from 2007, when a lot more US troops were there :

Iraq, 'Sinking Fast,' Is Ranked No. 2 on List of Unstable States

Grant said:
That's just wishful thinking. I wish the entire civilized world turned on ISIS but that is just as unlikely as your wish.
What do you think might be worse than ISIS?

in 2002, what did you think was worse than Al Qaeda? there's always some new and terrible enemy waiting to be born, and interventionism isn't stopping it.

Grant said:
No doubt nuclear weapons in the hands of these religious fanatics could be worse but that appears inevitable anyway.
Occupation has noot been tried sufficiently to make that judgment.

so, answer the question : do you support long term occupation?

Grant said:
In 2011 Iraq was relatively stable

see above links.

Grant said:
and had the military stayed, as they strongly suggested, then we wouldn't have what we have today.
"The region" is spreading throughout the world.
I can understand your skepticism. The lies are coming from every direction.

we can't afford to occupy vast regions of the Middle East, those who want us to are not willing to pay for it, and i have serious doubts that it would work anyway.

bring our troops home, and let's put a better roof on the house. it's time that we nation build here instead.

Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

Montecresto

Montecresto

Grant

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JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

Grant

Tazmanian Devil

Grant

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Montecresto

Montecresto

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

Helix

jmotivator

Computer Gaming Nerd

Tazmanian Devil

Grant

Grant

Montecresto

Helix

Tazmanian Devil

Montecresto

jmotivator

Computer Gaming Nerd

Tazmanian Devil

Helix

Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

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