Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' against ISIS[W:452]

flogger said:

Nonsense AQ and the Hussein regime were in fact the bitterest of enemies and never had any such ties. These stories were fabrications



Given no evidence of such contacts has ever emerged in the subsequent decade I think we can put these down to the Whitehouse disinformation machine

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flogger said:

So why were your armed forces not informed ? They clearly viewed the whole Iraq operation as retribution for 9/11 judging by the chalked messages on their bombs and shells as did the vast majority of your civilians. This deception was deliberately fostered by the Bush administration in order to facilitate the conflict

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joG said:

That they were'the bitterest of enemies' might be somewhat stretching the reality of the situation.

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Saddam did not like them though. That is quite right. That was why the contacts that had in fact taken place did not mean alliance and the theme was let drop. You must remember that.

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I am not going to look up the contacts for you, seeing that it is not very important, having not been named as casus belli.

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JoeTrumps said:

by agreeing with the CIA and, the Clinton administration, and every intelligence agency in the western world? that's some conspiracy you came up with there. it makes zero sense, but you aren't the first.
and how did Bush get Colin Powell to lie. I mean, if he's such a moron(better SATs than Obama by the way)

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JoeTrumps said:

by agreeing with the CIA and, the Clinton administration, and every intelligence agency in the western world? that's some conspiracy you came up with there. it makes zero sense, but you aren't the first.
and how did Bush get Colin Powell to lie. I mean, if he's such a moron(better SATs than Obama by the way)

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flogger said:

One was a secular regime the other a rabid fundamentalist group so there could be no 'common ground' given the threat they posed to one another




There never were any such contacts . They were a lie dreamt up in Washington to help facilitate the conflict and were used to bring the public and military to the perception of this (false) casus belli they required



In case you missed my update here it is again

Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda not linked, Pentagon says - CNN.com

Ergo those contacts did not exist

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joG said:

Lie? Again you pribably err, but I am not interested enough to show slander. Let be enough that I checked it at the time and found enough evidence to make it seem very probable that your present certainty is misplaced

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Will B. Black said:

Ok then... What would you do if your government forced you to fight against local militants? The OP is about men who lose the will to fight, real living men.

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polgara said:

Greetings, Grant. :2wave:
WOW! :shock: I didn't know my eyes could open that wide in shock this early in the day! While I agree that climate change is not the biggest threat this country faces - considering that everybody and his brother now think they should all have nukes, which I consider a bit more critical - their level of outrage, frustration, and sarcasm was totally unexpected! If this was a spoof, it was certainly a shock to watch! :beam:

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JoeTrumps said:

by agreeing with the CIA and, the Clinton administration, and every intelligence agency in the western world? that's some conspiracy you came up with there. it makes zero sense, but you aren't the first.
and how did Bush get Colin Powell to lie. I mean, if he's such a moron(better SATs than Obama by the way)

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flogger said:

I have to say I find your continued naievity on this issue incomprehensible in light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary that has been presented to you. Even in quoted statements made by Bush himself flying in the face of what his own intelligence ...... I'm never going to make you change your mind :roll:

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polgara said:

Greetings, Will B. Black. :2wave:

The same thing came up in a conversation I had recently with my brother. My thought was that I didn't believe they dropped their weapons and ran out of cowardice, but that they personally knew the people they were expected to kill - it could have been a next door neighbor. Since I don't know whether or not they have a choice in joining the army in the first place, or if everyone in a certain age bracket is conscripted, I guess it would depend upon how strongly one felt about living under a new regime like ISIS that might have more restrictive rules to follow. Perhaps they decided the choice wasn't worth dying for?

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joG said:

Certainly not with the type of information you produce.

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flogger said:

Yes but'as it stands ' once they did know what happened and who's citizens were really responsible ,why was Iraq still attacked and Saudi Arabia completely ignored ?

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flogger said:

Don't just blame them. The bulk US citizenry clearly can't (or won't) differentiate between Muslim nations preferring to tar them all with the same brush. The vengeful post 9/11 electorate demanded a large pile of dead Muslims in retribution and Bush duly delivered. Nobody stateside really cared that it was the wrong Muslims being killed and Bush knew this too. He got his second term from 'liberating the hell' out of the wrong country for the TV screens at home and so for his administration it really was 'mission accomplished'. The simple truth is that nobody really cared what happened in Iraq after that

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Montecresto said:

Bush's own words, lol. Good grief.

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joG said:

Maybe. And as I pointed out, the statement in itself is not incorrect. Putting too much weight on it is. I had read that at the time and looked into the connection. It existed, but was not important and did not play a role in the formulation of the casus belli.
So, if that kind of junk is the best you can do. ...

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Montecresto said:

Sorry, I'm calling bull****, prove that connection. Furthermore, that's just one small piece of in a huge edifice of George Bush's contempt of our constitution, his contempt of the UN, and frankly, his contempt of the American people. You really are making a fool of yourself hanging onto that colossal failure as you do.

Join your party, swallow the bitter pill, and don't make the same mistake twice.

In a Thursday panel at Cato on conservatism and war, U.S. Reps. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) Tom McClintock (R-Calif.) and John Duncan (R-Tenn.) revealed that the vast majority of GOP members of Congress now think it was wrong for the U.S. to invade Iraq in 2003. :screwy

GOP Congressmen: Most Republicans Now Think Iraq War Was a Mistake | Cato @ Liberty

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joG said:

If you read the article you like to post here, you know that you misrepresent it. You are talking retrospective reevaluation, which in this context is dishonest.

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Montecresto said:

Is the "vast majority of the GOP congress that now thinks the Iraq war was wrong" being dishonest and misrepresenting also??

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joG said:

Do you mean you don't even realize your dishonesty? I don't believe you. But it was nice talking about it with you.

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Grant said:

Morning, Polgara! No, it wasn't a spoof. People take their politics, and freedom of expression, pretty seriously over there, though religion is probably handled more 'discretely' in some areas. They were certainly right in getting rid of the Muslim Brotherhood, which they mentioned.

I think we are all a little shocked by these guys because they are saying what they think and are not afraid of using words we'd avoid. I read elsewhere where someone raised the point that although we can admire ground-breaking comedians like George Carlin, Lenny Bruce or Richard Prior, the sad fact is that these people would never survive in this 'you can't say that' environment. So we are shocked when people actually say what they are thinking and feeling and they're not at all concerned about being called 'racist' or 'bigot' or 'Islamophobe'. Cheers!

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Winston Parker said:

Carter saying Iraqi forces losing 'will to fight' sparks more criticism, concern about Obama plan | Fox News

Here we go again with our desperate attempts to train those who will shoot at our backs once they will be left alone.

They say you can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink. Bush Jr. invaded the wrong country (as if he could invade the right one). Iraqis understand they will die from ISIS attacks, but many of them got addicted to ISIS propaganda. So both facts are against US there - the fact Iraqis are muslims makes them sympathize isis and they never stopped treating us as invaders so I'm not surprised they don't want to fight.

It seems Pentagon's idea was to create non-US troops to fight ISIS and to oppose terrorists without getting involved to a direct confrontation.

So, does it mean we spend money on training future terrorists?

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Jahiliyyah (Arabic: جاهلية‎‎ ǧāhiliyyah/jāhilīyah "ignorance") is an Islamic concept of "ignorance of divine guidance" or "the state of ignorance of the guidance from God"[1] or "Days of Ignorance"[2] referring to the barbaric condition in which Arabs found themselves in pre-Islamic Arabia (in the non-Islamic sense), i.e. prior to the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad. The root of the term jahiliyyah is the I-form verb jahala "to be ignorant or stupid, to act stupidly".[3]

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Jahiliyya in contemporary society
Main article: Qutbism

Use of the term for modern Muslim society is usually associated with Qutb's other radical ideas (or Qutbism) – namely that reappearance of Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;[10] that true Islam is a complete system with no room for any element of Jahiliyya;[11] that all aspects of Jahiliyya ("manners, ideas and concepts, rules and regulations, values and criteria") are "evil and corrupt"[12]

Non-Muslim societies may also be termed jahili (Arabic: جاهلي‎‎ ǧāhilī ). One western academic has compared the idea of contemporary Jahiliyya in some radical Islamic circles to the secular Marxist idea of false consciousness[13] – in each case the masses being unaware they are not following their true consciousness by rising up to overthrow the capitalist system and replacing it with socialism (in the case of Marxism); or overthrow the secular state and replace it with the true Islam of strict sharia law (in the case of Qutbism).

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Tazmanian Devil said:

Hello. This is my first post here and I look forward to learning from you all and sharing what I have learned along life's path.

I chose my nickname because I think these disagreeable little guys are absolutely lovable BECAUSE of their ornery nature and in a way it SOMETIMES reflects my own attitude when posting.

With that out of the way I will get to the meat of the matter.

ISIS fighters are old school or fundamentalist Muslims and as such they hate hypocrites and apostates.

Those who fight for the Iraqi government are not following the doctrine or examples of the Prophet, Mohammed, and as such they are considered apostates and deserve to die..

And as Muslims themselves, they know full well that they are in Jahiliyyah.





Jahiliyyah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And after so many well publicized recent examples of be-headings, being burned alive, and other grotesque or even less hideous forms of execution by these "true Muslims," the soldiers of the apostate Iraqi government would have the fear of Allah put into them the closer the true Jihadi warriors got to them.

They ran to fight another day or else risk death.

Maybe they will be more willing to fight later and under different circumstances, but who knows?

I believe it is a matter of the Iraqi soldiers knowing they have no Islamic validation for doing what they are doing in support of an apostate government and so they flee to avoid the wrath of the TRUE Muslims.

My humble opinion.

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