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Iraqi Democracy NOT Worth US Economy!

Billo_Really

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Even though I personnally feel this is an illegal war and a violation of international law, in addition to thinking the planners and decision makers for this war should be charged as war criminals, I am completly amazed at all the chicken-hawks that argue in favor of the US aggression in Iraq without considering the toll it is taking on the US economy. The picture is gloomy and getting worse by the day. Check it out:

Casualty of War: The US Economy
By James Sterngold (The San Francisco Chronicle)
Sunday 17 July 2005

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have already cost taxpayers $314 billion, and the Congressional Budget Office projects additional expenses of perhaps $450 billion over the next 10 years.

That could make the combined campaigns, especially the war in Iraq, the most expensive military effort in the last 60 years, causing even some conservative experts to criticize the open-ended commitment to an elusive goal. The concern is that the soaring costs, given little weight before now, could play a growing role in U.S. strategic decisions because of the fiscal impact.

"Osama (bin Laden) doesn't have to win; he will just bleed us to death," said Michael Scheuer, a former counterterrorism official at the CIA who led the pursuit of bin Laden and recently retired after writing two books critical of the Clinton and Bush administrations. "He's well on his way to doing it."

The Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a nonpartisan Washington think tank, has estimated that the Korean War cost about $430 billion and the Vietnam War cost about $600 billion, in current dollars. According to the latest estimates, the cost of the war in Iraq could exceed $700 billion.

Put simply, critics say, the war is not making the United States safer and is harming U.S. taxpayers by saddling them with an enormous debt burden, since the war is being financed with deficit spending.

One of the most vocal Republican critics has been Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, who said the costs of the war -- many multiples greater than what the White House had estimated in 2003 -- are throwing U.S. fiscal priorities out of balance.

"It's dangerously irresponsible," Hagel said in February of the war spending.

He later told U.S. News & World Report, "The White House is completely disconnected from reality." He added that the apparent lack of solid plans for defeating the insurgency and providing stability in Iraq made it seem "like they're just making it up as they go along."


I care more about having a job than I do an Iraqis' democratic ideals. You always take care of the home front first. Iraq was not a threat to anyone. We didn't have to go there. Only corporate America wanted this. This Administration spends far too much time telling other country's how to do their business. While ours is going down the tubes!
 

teacher

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I heard a stat the other day. Of the total US spending for the last three years the Iraq war equals 3 days worth. I wonder if that includes the saleries of the military. War or not we would have spent that.


Three B-2 bombers cost the same as an aircraft carrier.

All economic indicators last week were up.

Consider gas prices keep going up but Pez stays the same.

The majority of money spent on the web is on porn.

Those listed at poverty levels in the US average owning 2+ televisions.

I had a customers wife complain about a 15$ motion detector while wearing a 5k$ ring.

Anybody without a job in the US don't figgin want one.

In a interview with a street corner panhandler in Atlanta a couple of years ago he claimed on a good day he cleared 600$.

One day I was behind a woman buying food with food stamps. In the parking lot I saw her get into a new caddie.

New rotors for my Bronco2 cost under 15 bucks.

We now pay for radio.

During WW ll, Gas, meat, and much more was rationed.

Nike's and Levi's last a long time.

Any time the same party controls the House, Senate, and White house the debt goes up. Politicians all, not Republicans or Democrats, are the problem.

You can not be denied medical care.

Shall I go on.

Yea, we got it tuff.
 

Navy Pride

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The left loves to whine about how bad things are, when in fact unemployment is at its lowest in 25 years, home construction is booming, and the econmy is great............
 

Kelzie

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Let's see, the current unemployment rate is at 5.5%. Howabout we make a list of the years in which the unemployment rate was lower?

2001-4.7
2000-4.0
1999-4.2
1998-4.9
1997-4.5
1996-5.4
1989-5.3

Now what was that about the lowest unemployment rate in the last 25 years?
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Navy Pride:
The left loves to whine about how bad things are, when in fact unemployment is at its lowest in 25 years, home construction is booming, and the econmy is great............
Even thought un-employment is down, which is a good thing, gas prices are still high. And how long can we go spending $5,000,000,000.00 a month on this bull$hit war in Iraq? That is going to take its toll on our economy eventually.
 

scottyz

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Billo_Really said:
Even thought un-employment is down, which is a good thing, gas prices are still high. And how long can we go spending $5,000,000,000.00 a month on this bull$hit war in Iraq? That is going to take its toll on our economy eventually.
The people in power don't give a **** about our economy though. They're all rich and stomping on the middle and lower class isn't an issue for them.
 

Comrade Brian

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And the rich are likely to be profiting quite a bit from this war.

And who says the Iraqi's have a democracy? We have never had economic democracy here.
 

mikeey

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Billo_Really ,how much soldiers have u lost today,the last count was 1800
what does the fox news say about that my good friend maybe they think
it was worth it,but i agree with u in every way. How much can the American
people stand, you tell me.

god bless u for what u stand for.

my kind regards to U
 

shuamort

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teacher said:
You can not be denied medical care.
Sure you can. If you don't have money, no medical care. I think you're thinking of emergency services which are scant. The emergency room at the hospital is only mandated in the fact that it has to stabilize anyone who comes in regardless of money. After stabilization, it's pay up or get out. No money, no care.

What you're not entitled to
If you're not having an emergency, then the hospital emergency room does not have to treat you. The hospital most likely will direct you to your own doctor or to a less-intensive-care setting, such as a community health clinic.

What is considered an emergency situation?
According to the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA), an emergency medical condition means:

(A) a medical condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in:
placing the health of the individual (or, with respect to a pregnant woman, the health of the woman or her unborn child) in serious jeopardy

serious impairment to bodily functions, or

serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part; or
(B) with respect to a pregnant woman who is having contractions:
that there is inadequate time to make a safe transfer to another hospital before delivery, or

that transfer may pose a threat to the health or safety of the woman or the unborn child
 

IValueFreedom

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I haven't really read this thread, only glanced at the name as skimmed the first post. If I get what you're saying, it's that the war in Iraq is actually hindering the U.S. economy?

I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm highly specticle as traditionally war is good business :\ (hence why we have so many)
 

Crispy

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So Billo,

Couple of questions

Is it your opinion then that we should stop now, reverse our policy and pull our troops out immediately? Or do you believe that we should try and stay until Iraq has established a government elected by its people that can sustain and secure itself?

Do you believe that the US economy is in peril of collapse at this point in time? Or do you believe that it can withstand that time to try and secure our withdrawal, leaving behind a stable nation?

Do you believe that sticking it out in order to try and set a precedent (or reaffirm a precedent established in post WWII Japan) that it is indeed possible to reverse the direction of a repressed nation is worthy of sacrifice on the part of our nation and the rest of the world community? Or do you believe that its not worth the price to pay to attempt to yeild that kind of result in Iraq or the middle east?

Seeing as we know you're against the war its a moot point to argue whether it was just to engage in this and I'll respect the anti war opinion. But seeing as here we are, in the war you don't want, what do you see as the wise course of action.

Based on my questions i'm sure you can see what my view is as to the wise course of action and I'm eager for you to show that you're not just creating these threads for their propaganda value in inspiring anti bush sentiment but really openiing the door for a conversation on how we can come away from this in a positive light within and outside our country.
 

SMIRKnCHIMP

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Kelzie said:
Let's see, the current unemployment rate is at 5.5%. Howabout we make a list of the years in which the unemployment rate was lower?

2001-4.7
2000-4.0
1999-4.2
1998-4.9
1997-4.5
1996-5.4
1989-5.3

Now what was that about the lowest unemployment rate in the last 25 years?

Unemployment rate is a monthly poll taken of 60,000 households......hardly accurate..for sure the number does not take into account the 17 to 18 million of out of work Americans who are not accounted for in those numbers,
 

Crispy

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Tetracide said:
Do I have a twin?

Great post Crispy.
Gracias,

Just searchin for the truth dude.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Crispy:
So Billo,

Couple of questions

Is it your opinion then that we should stop now, reverse our policy and pull our troops out immediately? Or do you believe that we should try and stay until Iraq has established a government elected by its people that can sustain and secure itself?
I don't know about reversing our policy, I do think we should admit the real reason were there, and stop this charade of wanting to bring them democracy. Just look at all the pro-war, hate posts by many on this board. Are you going to tell me that after posting comments like those, these very people care about Iraqi's?
Originally posted by Crispy:
Do you believe that the US economy is in peril of collapse at this point in time?
I wouldn't say peril. Maybe "imminant peril" would be more succinct if do not stop paying 5 billion a month for this war.
Originally posted by Crispy:
Or do you believe that it can withstand that time to try and secure our withdrawal, leaving behind a stable nation?
If you go to some websites (ie, Activist Reader, Mother Jones, Juan Cole, Today in Iraq, etc.) that have Iraqi bloggers (not terrorists), average Iraqi citizens that are living there now, you might see that we are, in part, contributing to some of the destabilization they are going thru. Maybe not as much as insurgents. But we definately do not walk around with halo's on our heads. Most of the GI's perhaps, but not all. In contrast, I do not think we are a great satan either. And GySgt makes a good point when he says that not enough of the good things the US has done is being stressed enough. But this subject is not one of them.
Originally posted by Crispy:
Do you believe that sticking it out in order to try and set a precedent (or reaffirm a precedent established in post WWII Japan) that it is indeed possible to reverse the direction of a repressed nation is worthy of sacrifice on the part of our nation and the rest of the world community? Or do you believe that its not worth the price to pay to attempt to yeild that kind of result in Iraq or the middle east?
I don't think we give a damn about Iraqis. And I certainly do not like my leaders playing me for a fool. The Administrations rap on this is not a very good one. Yet it is said with such conviction, that I get the impression that they think I'm such an idiot as to believe this bullshit! And bullshit it is, when I read stories that we farm out some of the security work to persons of questionable backgrounds. The article below will explain one of the reasons many Iraqi's resent what the US occupation is becoming.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/notebook/2004/11/11_200.html

Originally posted by Crispy:
Seeing as we know you're against the war its a moot point to argue whether it was just to engage in this and I'll respect the anti war opinion. But seeing as here we are, in the war you don't want, what do you see as the wise course of action.
I don't have enough wisdom to make a wise decision that would answer your query. You need more information to draw an intelligent conclusion. The President has access to this kind of information. Unfortunately, DSM indicates he has a pre-disposition on this topic that pre-determines his actions.
Originally posted by Crispy:
Based on my questions i'm sure you can see what my view is as to the wise course of action and I'm eager for you to show that you're not just creating these threads for their propaganda value in inspiring anti bush sentiment but really openiing the door for a conversation on how we can come away from this in a positive light within and outside our country.
I see your point. And I think it is a very good one. I would hope my threads would be more of a wake up call than considered merely propaganda. I don't enjoy talking bad about my country. I don't like the way I feel right now. This is not how I was raised to think about the US. I was one of those guys that had to pull over on the freeway just to get out and scream, "USA! USA! USA!" the night we beat the Russian hockey team back in 1980. Now I'm disgusted when I hear that type of conviction from people who defend Bush and this invasion.

Many of my threads I post with a heavy heart or out of total contempt for these irrational, too much TV watching neo's that spew their hate and practice character assasinations on a regular basis with no interest in finding the truth.

I'm not looking for people to agree with me. I would hope that they would find out for themselves. For some, that is a little too much work for something they really don't care that much about. It's a lot easier to play the "blame game" and discount peoples sources or motivations. I have to admit that I get a little hot when, after posting their dogma, they try to act like they just said something profound. As for me, I constantly remind myself that I really don't have anything that noteworthy to say, people would want to hear.

Just my opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 

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Hey Billo,

You know? I hear ya. I was raised the same way and I can't claim to have the answers either. I also whole heartedly agree that there is a lot of uninformed rhetoric that will get the best of our danders in an uproar. This blame game really hurts us because with one voice we can speak volumes to our leaders even if we disagree.

I won't say that I agree that we don't give a damn about the Iraqis although I certainly acknowlege that that isn't the first and foremost consideration that dictates our policies and to this I submit is indeed our biggest mistake.

My support for the war is more founded in my hope to see their country and the whole region benefit from our actions. For as dissolusioned as I've been in recent years about the potential lack of integrity of our leaders intentions I still believe that its you and me that can show our true spirit even if our leaders don't do it or do it right.

It may perhaps be naive to believe but i believe our leaders are our instruments and not the other way around. Even in the face of major decisions that we don't agree with I believe that we can always affect the outcome to the positive by virtue of keeping that ideal in there face whether it be in peace or in war.

When i've spoken to my parents about WWII i'm astounded by the rally of support even by those who didn't agree completely with our maneuvers. I think some of that type of support (agree to disagree but make what is happening work and work better) then no matter what circumstances we find ouselves in we can prevail and make the world a better place to live in.

I'm not a war monger but perhaps I have more of a toleration for war than some, maybe most. I'm certainly a student of the subject and don't write it off as a unnecessary evil although I hear and interalize every anti war argument to clear my perspective. That's just me though.

I'm glad you posted back. I've been losing alotta faith not in our government but in our people. And if we can't talk and believe amoungst ourselves then there will never be a way for our government to do it.

Cheers.
 

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Originally posted by Crispy:
It may perhaps be naive to believe but i believe our leaders are our instruments and not the other way around. Even in the face of major decisions that we don't agree with I believe that we can always affect the outcome to the positive by virtue of keeping that ideal in there face whether it be in peace or in war.
You couldn't be more right. In fact, this was the point of my thread, "We Got the Government We Deserve". Because, I think the government, any government, is merely a reflection of its people. Just as an example, if there is corruption in government, it is because there is corruption in our own lives.

But at least through people like yourself, there is hope.
 

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Billo_Really said:
You couldn't be more right. In fact, this was the point of my thread, "We Got the Government We Deserve". Because, I think the government, any government, is merely a reflection of its people. Just as an example, if there is corruption in government, it is because there is corruption in our own lives.

But at least through people like yourself, there is hope.
Hey Amen man. I think there are alot more people out there like me and you. They just need to let it out of themselves you know? I actually didn't get to read that post i'm gonna go check that one out.
 

Billo_Really

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Origianlly posted by Crispy:
Hey Amen man. I think there are alot more people out there like me and you. They just need to let it out of themselves you know? I actually didn't get to read that post i'm gonna go check that one out.
You know the people I resent the most, are the ones that don't vote or take an active role in the political process of our country.

I feel like making a technicolor yawn, or a call on the big phone when I say this, but, I think more highly of posters like cnredd or tr1414 than I do for the 'apathetic' in our society.
 

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Billo_Really said:
You know the people I resent the most, are the ones that don't vote or take an active role in the political process of our country.

I feel like making a technicolor yawn, or a call on the big phone when I say this, but, I think more highly of posters like cnredd or tr1414 than I do for the 'apathetic' in our society.

Hey I hear ya. I actually have to admit that i've had my slides in my voting participation, dissolusionment, the adolescent stance of no vote is a vote and what not. I've obviously since then come to respect and appreciate that privilege though.

I know too many people that still subscibe to those ideas though. And also some people who sadly just don't care. Like to get em in a bar put a few shots down their throats and give em good earful ;).

I'm kinda hopeful about some of the young people's participation though. I was on an online video gaming team that had a bunch of high school students and college students and they were really bright individuals who actually were quite aware of the social, political and economic climate we're in. Perhaps if this whole situation leads to nothing else, it will lead to a young generation that wants to know and be responsible for the world around them. When i was in school that was the last thing I thought about.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Crispy:
Hey I hear ya. I actually have to admit that i've had my slides in my voting participation, dissolusionment, the adolescent stance of no vote is a vote and what not. I've obviously since then come to respect and appreciate that privilege though.

I know too many people that still subscibe to those ideas though. And also some people who sadly just don't care. Like to get em in a bar put a few shots down their throats and give em good earful .

I'm kinda hopeful about some of the young people's participation though. I was on an online video gaming team that had a bunch of high school students and college students and they were really bright individuals who actually were quite aware of the social, political and economic climate we're in. Perhaps if this whole situation leads to nothing else, it will lead to a young generation that wants to know and be responsible for the world around them. When i was in school that was the last thing I thought about.
There's one thing I can thank the President on, I've never in my life wanted to participate more in the political process than I do right now. I've never felt more patriotic than I do right now. Other than getting our troops back on American soil, I can't think of a better gift to this country than lobbying for his Impeachment.
 

ban.the.electoral.college

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Billo_Really said:
There's one thing I can thank the President on, I've never in my life wanted to participate more in the political process than I do right now. I've never felt more patriotic than I do right now. Other than getting our troops back on American soil, I can't think of a better gift to this country than lobbying for his Impeachment.
Rally!! I think everyone ought to head on over to the polls, where were talking about turning all this talk into action. Let me know what issue you think we should protest on:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=3088
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by ban.the.electoral.college:
Rally!! I think everyone ought to head on over to the polls, where were talking about turning all this talk into action. Let me know what issue you think we should protest on:
Should "electronic voting" be outlawed?
 

ban.the.electoral.college

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Billo_Really said:
Should "electronic voting" be outlawed?
If I can do my banking, enroll in college, file tax returns, and apply for/recieve financial aide all online, then I think voting could be done electronically as well. But first we have to rid of the electoral college.
 
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