Iraq, The most sucessful war in US history!

[bismitch]

The Taliban was a pro-oil industry government if you did not know Billo.

 

[tryreading]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Hello! Al Qaeda AKA Afghanistan ATTACKED the USA on 9-11! I know of no one who objected to the war in Afghanistan.

How can you ask this question? It's amazing to me! It's like you're linking OBL to Iraq...a ploy that no one but the most extreme and BLIND Republican war mongerers believe!

Amazing!

The most extreme, blind, and sometimes a little stupid:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A senior U.S. diplomat said the United States had shown "arrogance" and "stupidity" in Iraq but was ready to talk with any group except Al-Qaida in Iraq to facilitate national reconciliation.

In an interview with Al-Jazeera television aired late Saturday, Alberto Fernandez, director of public diplomacy in the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs at the State Department offered an unusually candid assessment of America's war in Iraq.

"We tried to do our best but I think there is much room for criticism because, undoubtedly, there was arrogance and there was stupidity from the United States in Iraq," he said.

http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsst...20061021/45399b40_3ca6_1552620061021432109212

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Do you know how weak Saddam's army was after the Gulf War? I don't think that his conventional army was much of a threat anymore.

Yes, I think you are correct. In fact in history there has never really been a "strong" Arab military. They usually fold pretty quickly.

So is the point that the Iraq operation has been an easy? I understand that position and I think it goes right to the point of this being successful.. In my mind if it has been easy it makes it hard to argue that it is also a big failure.

I guess one could argue that it should have been easy and we screwed it up. But again a historical comparison would need to prove that out. I think the first 30 days were relatively easy... and the Italy comparison proves that out.

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Once again as with the beginning of the post you are comparing two wars that were not of equal magnitude or setting. In the Vietnam war we were up against rebels that were well organized and funded, in a jungle terrain perfect for them to fight and hide in. Korea was a much larger war than Iraq, involved North Koreans with Russian tanks, aircraft and guns with the Chinese fighting too. A war that could be compared with the Iraq war in size and scope would be the Soviet invasion(compared to US) of Afganistan(Compared to Iraq).

I'm pretty sure that the insurgentcy in Italy was not quite as bad in Iraq.(I never really heard about them) But usually after conquest there is some kind of opposition in the form of rebellion. I'm sure it wasn't in the thousands ok. If it was even over a thousand, please provide some kind of proof.

It is the debtors choice as to what is used to support their argument. In my view Viet-Nam and the USSR/Afghan wars are very poor comparisons because in comparison the current Iraq operation would be even more hugely successful. Remember, during the hight of Viet-Nam we were losing up-ward of 300+ men a day. I would have to verify it but I seem to remember that we had lost over 7000 in the first couple of years. There were close to a million US service men and women cycled through Viet-Nam (more targets). Also, neither of these wars ever were successful at removing a dictator or forming a constitutional government.

However if you want to use them it is your option. Now if what you are saying is that we want to keep our eye on the mistakes made in these conflicts to make sure we do not repeat them... I agree. But truth is, by calling the Iraq war a failure when indeed it is a huge success we are going down the same road we went as a people during Viet-Nam.

As for insurgency, by 1980 the attacks in Italy had dwindled to one every three or four years... but that was 32 years after the war was over. After the liberation of Italy it is my understanding that there were thousands killed in post-war activaty... most of them were not Americans. It seems that is the phase we are entering in Iraq.

 

[Iriemon]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

I guess one could argue that it should have been easy and we screwed it up. But again a historical comparison would need to prove that out. I think the first 30 days were relatively easy... and the Italy comparison proves that out.

Just out of curiousity, how many died because of the Italian post-WWII "insurgency"

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Just out of curiousity, how many died because of the Italian post-WWII "insurgency"

If we use this definition of insurgency: "an insurrection against an existing government, usually one's own, by a group not recognized as having the status of a belligerent."

History tells us that there was Noe-fascist insurrection related violence that started immediately fallowing the war and peaked in strength in 1969 and 1970 when there was actually an attempted coup. There were also Communist, Socialist and Mafia led insurrections during the same period. As I posted earlier the last acknowledge fascist bombing was in 1980 known as the Bologna Massacre. I have not taken the time to look at all the bombings that took place and count up the dead but I did see one report that used the term "thousands".

 

[MSR]

If you are interested at all.. another tid-bit as to the question of when do we leave...

We never left Italy. Vicenza – is home to the 173d Airborne Brigade. We have an Army base in Livorno; an Air Force bases in Aviano. The home of the Navy's sixth fleet is in Italy located in Sigonella, Naples, and Gaeta. Plus the United States has a very large contingency of US military personnel stationed in Rome at the NATO war college.

 

[Iriemon]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

If we use this definition of insurgency: "an insurrection against an existing government, usually one's own, by a group not recognized as having the status of a belligerent."

History tells us that there was Noe-fascist insurrection related violence that started immediately fallowing the war and peaked in strength in 1969 and 1970 when there was actually an attempted coup. There were also Communist, Socialist and Mafia led insurrections during the same period. As I posted earlier the last acknowledge fascist bombing was in 1980 known as the Bologna Massacre. I have not taken the time to look at all the bombings that took place and count up the dead but I did see one report that used the term "thousands".

I'm not sure history tells us that. The Italians, who were never as fanatical about the war as the Nazis, stopped fighting in '43 after the Allies invaded and the allied troops were widely greeted as liberators. I'm not aware of a an insurgency following WWII. In the late 60s-70s, the Italian Govt faced a growing insurgency/terrorist threat mostly from the radical leftist (ie Red Brigarde), but this had nothing to do with US liberation of Italy. US troops were stationed in Italy not to uphold the Govt but as part of the NATO alliance against the Warsaw Pact.

Seems to me a totally different situation in terms of reasons and scope than Iraq.

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

I'm not sure history tells us that. The Italians, who were never as fanatical about the war as the Nazis, stopped fighting in '43 after the Allies invaded and the allied troops were widely greeted as liberators. I'm not aware of a an insurgency following WWII. In the late 60s-70s, the Italian Govt faced a growing insurgency/terrorist threat mostly from the radical leftist (ie Red Brigade), but this had nothing to do with US liberation of Italy. US troops were stationed in Italy not to uphold the Govt but as part of the NATO alliance against the Warsaw Pact.

Seems to me a totally different situation in terms of reasons and scope than Iraq.

I am relying on information I gained from various encyclopedias, I avoided opinion pieces in my research... here is the quote I recorded from my research:

"In December 1970, a coup dubbed the Golpe Borghese failed. It was organized and planned by several far right neo-fascist figureheads with the support of armed forces and police officers and the backing of right-aligned entrepreneurs and industrialists. The "Black Prince", Junio Valerio Borghese himself, took part in it."

I also have this quote that I jotted down:

"The last and largest of the bombings, known as the Bologna massacre, destroyed the city's railway station in 1980. This was also found to be a fascist bombing. Many aspects of the "lead years" are still shrouded in mystery, and debate is still going in regard to some aspects: to what degree the Red Brigades had actually been exploited by right-wing or possibly foreign forces to destabilize Italy or to discredit the Communist Party and impede the historic compromise. On October 24, 1990, Prime minister Giulio Andreotti officially acknowledged in the Chamber of Deputies the existence of "stay-behind" Gladio structure(fascist), which had been involved in the bombings following this strategy of tension."

 

[Jack Pott]

If one looks at the statistics how can anyone label the Iraq operation anything but a success?

Iraq has been one of the most successful operations in the history of the United States.

Bush accepts Iraq-Vietnam war comparison

October 19, 2006

The escalating violence in Iraq could be compared to the 1968 Tet offensive in Vietnam, which was a turning point in that war, the US president admitted last night.

In an interview on ABC News, George Bush was asked whether he agreed with the New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, who wrote that the real "October surprise" was what "seems like the jihadist equivalent of the Tet offensive".

"He could be right," Mr Bush replied. "There's certainly a stepped-up level of violence, and we're heading into an election."

Mr Bush has strongly resisted comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq. Vietnam remains a touchy subject for America; the war deeply divided the country, ended in an ignominious retreat for the US after the loss of more than 57,000 American lives, and has become synonymous with political and military debacle.

The comparison with Vietnam coincided with one of the deadliest days in Iraq for the US military, with at least 10 soldiers killed yesterday. Around 70 US troops have died so far in October, making it one of the worst months for the American military since the invasion in March 2003.

"My gut tells me that they have all along been trying to inflict enough damage that we'd leave," Mr Bush told George Stephanopoulos of ABC News. "And the leaders of al-Qaida have made that very clear. They believe that if they can create enough chaos, the American people will grow sick and tired of the Iraqi effort and will cause (the) government to withdraw."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1926048,00.html

 

[MSR]

Bush accepts Iraq-Vietnam war comparison

October 19, 2006

"My gut tells me that they have all along been trying to inflict enough damage that we'd leave," Mr Bush told George Stephanopoulos of ABC News. "And the leaders of al-Qaida have made that very clear. They believe that if they can create enough chaos, the American people will grow sick and tired of the Iraqi effort and will cause (the) government to withdraw."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1926048,00.html

Yes this is exactly what the Viet-Cong wanted to accomplish as is the goals of the insurgency in Iraq. A very good comparison and argument for not running away.

That makes at least two groups that want us to run-away in Iraq... the Dem Leadership and Al-Qaida. :roll:

 

[Iriemon]

Yes this is exactly what the Viet-Cong wanted to accomplish as is the goals of the insurgency in Iraq. A very good comparison and argument for not running away.

That makes at least two groups that want us to run-away in Iraq... the Dem Leadership and Al-Qaida. :roll:

Why would Al-Quada want us to leave Iraq? The Iraq war has been the best anti-US pro-radical recruitment tool they could dream of.

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Why would Al-Quada want us to leave Iraq? The Iraq war has been the best anti-US pro-radical recruitment tool they could dream of.

Well my opinion (everyone has one) is that they want to create a fascist state in Iraq (as they did in Afghanistan), partner with the Iranian Leadership and be the driving force in the Middle East. They would then have a launching pad for both the destruction of Israel and constant terror attacks on the west... primarily the US. If they are really lucky this could all coincide with Iran's development of a nuclear weapon. But that is just a guess.

Also, if you think fighting a war against the US gets them lots of recruits just think what winning a war against us would get them.... just my view.

 

[Iriemon]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Well my opinion (everyone has one) is that they want to create a fascist state in Iraq (as they did in Afghanistan), partner with the Iranian Leadership and be the driving force in the Middle East. They would then have a launching pad for both the destruction of Israel and constant terror attacks on the west... primarily the US. If they are really lucky this could all coincide with Iran's development of a nuclear weapon. But that is just a guess.

Also, if you think fighting a war against the US gets them lots of recruits just think what winning a war against us would get them.... just my view.

Putting aside the nature of the government; if Al-Queda were to take over the government of Iraq, we'd have a great target for an AGM-65.

I question that even "winning" in Iraq would have a much of an effect in the rest of the ME. It would likely be perceived as illegitimate by many.

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

It would likely be perceived as illegitimate by many.

Not the ones who want to cut our heads off. It would be very legitimate to them.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Why would Al-Quada want us to leave Iraq? The Iraq war has been the best anti-US pro-radical recruitment tool they could dream of.

fortunately we are killing them just as they sign up.

youd never know it though. unfortunately the "unbiased" mainstream media would rather show videos of U.S. troops being shot by enemy snipers.

 

[Iriemon]

fortunately we are killing them just as they sign up.

youd never know it though. unfortunately the "unbiased" mainstream media would rather show videos of U.S. troops being shot by enemy snipers.

How do you know it?

 

[tryreading]

How do you know it?

Exactly. Everything he knows about the Iraq war came from the media, so that's where he got that item. But he's smarter than all the rest of us, and can tell exactly which news facts are accurate, and which are from the liberal bias news agenda...conspiracy. The rest of us believe everything we hear and see. We are so naive.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Exactly. Everything he knows about the Iraq war came from the media, so that's where he got that item. But he's smarter than all the rest of us, and can tell exactly which news facts are accurate, and which are from the liberal bias news agenda...conspiracy. The rest of us believe everything we hear and see. We are so naive.

im no different than anyone else here. the only way anybody here gets their information is from the media.....unless they are active military or in country.

so your rant is one of the more stupid I have seen here.

 

[ProudAmerican]

How do you know it?

the same way you know there absolutely are no WMDs, and that Bush without a doubt lied I suppose.

as for the other part of my post, have you not heard about the video I mentioned?

 

[tryreading]

im no different than anyone else here. the only way anybody here gets their information is from the media.....unless they are active military or in country.

so your rant is one of the more stupid I have seen here.

With your intellect, I can surely understand why you would think the things I say are stupid. Its because only you can see through the national media liberal bias conspiracy. My weak effort of gathering news by listening to and reading as many sources of it as possible so I can form an informed opinion must not be the way to go. I guess I should find a way to rule out the sources that slant the news, right? So that only leaves Drudge and Hannity, Right?

Problem is, those guys, and others of their kind, spend all of their air time stumping for the candidates of a particular party. And stupid as I may be, I can see through that. So I'm going to try to keep following all the sources that I can, even including a little input from the guys above. And some day I may be smart enough to be able to filter out all of the news that I don't like, like you can. A fellow can dream, can't he?

 

[bismitch]

If you are interested at all.. another tid-bit as to the question of when do we leave...

We never left Italy. Vicenza – is home to the 173d Airborne Brigade. We have an Army base in Livorno; an Air Force bases in Aviano. The home of the Navy's sixth fleet is in Italy located in Sigonella, Naples, and Gaeta. Plus the United States has a very large contingency of US military personnel stationed in Rome at the NATO war college.

Troops placed in other countries, are not there because of ongoing rebellion, but Strategic location for the theatre of the troops deployment. This is the case in most countries, we have troops in Germany(Hmmm i dont think there is much rebellion there) and many other countries.

 

[bismitch]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

It is the debtors choice as to what is used to support their argument. In my view Viet-Nam and the USSR/Afghan wars are very poor comparisons because in comparison the current Iraq operation would be even more hugely successful. Remember, during the hight of Viet-Nam we were losing up-ward of 300+ men a day. I would have to verify it but I seem to remember that we had lost over 7000 in the first couple of years. There were close to a million US service men and women cycled through Viet-Nam (more targets). Also, neither of these wars ever were successful at removing a dictator or forming a constitutional government.

However if you want to use them it is your option. Now if what you are saying is that we want to keep our eye on the mistakes made in these conflicts to make sure we do not repeat them... I agree. But truth is, by calling the Iraq war a failure when indeed it is a huge success we are going down the same road we went as a people during Viet-Nam.

As for insurgency, by 1980 the attacks in Italy had dwindled to one every three or four years... but that was 32 years after the war was over. After the liberation of Italy it is my understanding that there were thousands killed in post-war activaty... most of them were not Americans. It seems that is the phase we are entering in Iraq.

I never said Vietnam was the ideal comparason(Afganistan-USSR war is what i said). Yes, the Iraq war was more successful than the Afgan-USSR war, but it is a much better comparason in scope and goals.

I still want a link to some proof about that italian insurgency, never heard of it(so i think it is insignicant, unless you prove me wrong).

And still based upon your definition of "successful" war, Italy was a much more of a "success". If you could post it again, I can explain it again.

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

Troops placed in other countries, are not there because of ongoing rebellion, but Strategic location for the theatre of the troops deployment. This is the case in most countries, we have troops in Germany(Hmmm i dont think there is much rebellion there) and many other countries.

You are correct! I never said there was rebellion in Germany or Italy. I was offering that as an example of how a success in Iraq might look. I think it should be expected that we will never completely leave Iraq if it remains a democracy. I am not sure why you thought I was say there was rebellion. :doh

 

[MSR]

Re: Iraq, The most successful war in US history!

I never said Vietnam was the ideal comparison(Afghanistan-USSR war is what i said). Yes, the Iraq war was more successful than the Afghan-USSR war, but it is a much better comparison in scope and goals.

I still want a link to some proof about that Italian insurgency, never heard of it(so i think it is insignificant, unless you prove me wrong).

And still based upon your definition of "successful" war, Italy was a much more of a "success". If you could post it again, I can explain it again.

I have no intention of proving you wrong. There is no requirement that you like the Italy example. It is the example I am using to defend my argument. I have given plenty of information for you to research it yourself if you like... even excerpts from my own research. I have provided the definition of insurgency that I am using. Honestly there comes a time when you need to take responsibility for educating yourself and not relying on me or anyone else to educate you. That is not intended to be a judgment on you, you have already proved yourself above the fray in even being interested in understand facts. But Until you convince yourself by researching it you will never really believe me no matter what links I provide you. In my research I used Encarta, Britannica and Wikipedia in order to get a balanced understanding of post-war Italy.

However, don't get hung-up on Italy. If you think Iraq is a failure please post your historical comparison that supports your position. I have already posted mine. I am not sure I know what your position is... please state it and provide supporting evidences. I stick with Italy... I think it is the strongest support for my argument.