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Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

Jredbaron96

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Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened – Amanpour - CNN.com Blogs

Iran's new president has acknowledged the Holocaust, furthering the stark contrast between himself and his predecessor."Any crime that happens in history against humanity, including the crime the Nazis committed towards the Jews as well as non-Jews, was reprehensible and condemnable," President Hassan Rouhani said in an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
"Whatever criminality they committed against the Jews we condemn. The taking of human life is contemptible. It makes no difference whether that life is a Jewish life, Christian or Muslim."


Well I'll be damned. What say you?
 

Deuce

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"Does not subscribe to one particular conspiracy theory" isn't really that high of a bar.
 

ecofarm

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I bet he's one of those "it was only a few people" holocaust deniers.

Jews as well as non-Jews...

Whatever criminality they committed...

Days earlier, in an interview with NBC, Rouhani declined to say whether the Holocaust happened.

He still has not admitted Nazi genocide or the holocaust, merely "whatever criminality". I believe his "as well as non-Jews" is a hedge to deny that Nazis focused on anyone.



If you asked someone "did the holocaust happen" and they responded "whatever criminality occurred, it was wrong". What would you think? That they had admitted the holocaust happened? No.
 
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ecofarm

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Well Iran has been less of a problem child with Rouhani at the wheel, things should hopefully improve more soon.

The Iranian regime put this guy on the mic to buy them time to get to nukes. He didn't admit the holocaust happened, he admitted "whatever criminality" happened. One's gotta be brainless to think that's the same thing.
 

ecofarm

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I'm rather stunned that people would be so amazingly stupid as to believe admitting "whatever criminality" and admitting the holocaust are the same thing.
 

Sherman123

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I wish he'd gone further. However I'm willing to extend some latitude considering how little we know about Rouhani and his relationship with the clerical establishment.
 

ecofarm

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how little we know about Rouhani and his relationship with the clerical establishment.

They nominate him, he runs for office. He holds no real power. The Grand Poobah can remove him at any time for any reason. He's a mouthpiece and spewing, at the moment, whatever will buy the regime time to develop nukes.

What more is there to know?
 

Spriggs05

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The Iranian regime put this guy on the mic to buy them time to get to nukes. He didn't admit the holocaust happened, he admitted "whatever criminality" happened. One's gotta be brainless to think that's the same thing.

Its still a step better than Ahmadinejad.
 

Sherman123

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They nominate him, he runs for office. He holds no real power. The Grand Poobah can remove him at any time for any reason. He's a mouthpiece and spewing, at the moment, whatever will buy the regime time to develop nukes.

What more is there to know?

Obviously the President is subordinate to the clerical establishment and the Grand Ayatollah, but it would be a step too far to pretend that the President holds no power. Distasteful as Ahmadinejad was he very obviously engaged in power struggles with the clerical establishment and it's associated levers of power. Quite evidently he did not succeed but that the fight even occurred is an indication that the President has more than just ceremonial power. He is given a writ of power which can in theory be revoked and constrained but not without some difficulty and in the meanwhile he does in fact have practical control over most of the Islamic Republics day to day policy decisions. So what I meant was that we know so little about Rouhani and I think it is very unclear what kind of relationship he has with the Ayatollah or the clerical establishment. Has he been given broad latitude by them? Are they on good or bad terms? How afraid are they of muzzling or dethroning another elected President given the conditions inside Iran and the powder keg of the last crackdown? Etc, etc.
 

ecofarm

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Its still a step better than Ahmadinejad.

No, it's a step carefully calculated to buy time for developing nukes. Same old BS.

There is no difference between the old president and the new one. Do you understand that the Iranian regime is a totalitarian theocracy and the president has no real power whatsoever?
 

ecofarm

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Obviously the President is subordinate to the clerical establishment and the Grand Ayatollah, but it would be a step too far to pretend that the President holds no power. Distasteful as Ahmadinejad was he very obviously engaged in power struggles with the clerical establishment and it's associated levers of power.

That was theatre and Adinnerjacket could have been removed from power, for any reason, whenever the Poobah wanted.

Has he been given broad latitude by them? Are they on good or bad terms? How afraid are they of muzzling or dethroning another elected President given the conditions inside Iran and the powder keg of the last crackdown? Etc, etc.

He has been told exactly what to say in order to buy time. Let's be real - if he wasn't willing to do that, he would never have been allowed to 'run' for office.
 

Spriggs05

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No, it's a step carefully calculated to buy time for developing nukes. Same old BS.

There is no difference between the old president and the new one. Do you understand that the Iranian regime is a totalitarian theocracy and the president has no real power whatsoever?

I see your point, agree, and have no reply to it.
 

ecofarm

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I see your point, agree, and have no reply to it.

You're joking, right?

I've been on internet debate sites for years and I've really no idea how to handle this.
 

Spriggs05

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You're joking, right?

I've been on internet debate sites for years and I've really no idea how to handle this.

Nope, your right, I concede that.
 

Sherman123

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That was theatre and Adinnerjacket could have been removed from power, for any reason, whenever the Poobah wanted.



He has been told exactly what to say in order to buy time.

I do not think that is true. Even in autocracies camps of power emerge, especially at the highest levels of government and politics. Especially earlier in his administration when he had firmer backing from the clerical establishment he went to great lengths to cultivate a relationship with the IRGC and conservative clerics which was a clear effort to build an independent power base. This directly contributed to the eventual crackdown from the senior political establishment against him which felt threatened by this apparent accumulation of power. There was an under-current from late 2010 to the end of 2011 that Ahmadinejad was in open conflict with Khamanei and a wing of the traditional conservatives in Parliament (whom Ahmadinejad has never had a good relationship). The dilemma over the Presidency in Iran which creates an automatic figure of power by popular elevation has constrained how aggressive the clerical establishment can be in reigning in the executive. If the Islamic Republic is going to continue the partial fiction of being a democracy which it's people are fiercely protective over it cannot be seen as acting in too heavy handed of a manner until popular sentiment has turned against the President (as it did in 2011).
 

ecofarm

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Nope, your right, I concede that.

I must say, your conclusion is more impressive than mine. Anyone could have come up with my logic and reasoning, but you... well, aren't you unusual.
 

ecofarm

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I do not think that is true. Even in autocracies camps of power emerge, especially at the highest levels of government and politics. Especially earlier in his administration when he had firmer backing from the clerical establishment he went to great lengths to cultivate a relationship with the IRGC and conservative clerics which was a clear effort to build an independent power base. This directly contributed to the eventual crackdown from the senior political establishment against him which felt threatened by this apparent accumulation of power. There was an under-current from late 2010 to the end of 2011 that Ahmadinejad was in open conflict with Khamanei and a wing of the traditional conservatives in Parliament (whom Ahmadinejad has never had a good relationship). The dilemma over the Presidency in Iran which creates an automatic figure of power by popular elevation has constrained how aggressive the clerical establishment can be in reigning in the executive. If the Islamic Republic is going to continue the partial fiction of being a democracy which it's people are fiercely protective over it cannot be seen as acting in too heavy handed of a manner until popular sentiment has turned against the President (as it did in 2011).

You're looking way too hard to find diversity in totalitarian dictatorship. Of course the Poobah puts on a theatre for his people and the international community.

But let's stay on specific topic for the moment...


Do you think this constitutes admitting the holocaust:

Do you admit the holocaust?
No answer.
A bit later... Do you admit the holocaust?
Any criminality is bad.


That's holocaust denial.
 

Spriggs05

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I must say, your conclusion is more impressive than mine. Anyone could have come up with my logic and reasoning, but you... well, aren't you unusual.

No, I just know when I'm beaten. I don't carry on like a mindless lunatic who just spams a thread with a lack of logic and opinion.
 

Ockham

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Well Iran has been less of a problem child with Rouhani at the wheel, things should hopefully improve more soon.

The mullahs still pull the strings so Rouhani given his history really doesn't tip the balance to improvement in my book. Remove the mullahs and put in place some sort of representative government and then I'll start believing.
 

Spriggs05

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The mullahs still pull the strings so Rouhani given his history really doesn't tip the balance to improvement in my book. Remove the mullahs and put in place some sort of representative government and then I'll start believing.

Just take a quick glance at my conversation with Ecofarm.
 

Sherman123

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You're looking way too hard to find diversity in totalitarian dictatorship. Of course the Poobah puts on a theatre for his people and the international community.

But let's stay on specific topic for the moment...


Do you think this constitutes admitting the holocaust:

Do you admit the holocaust?
No answer.
A bit later... Do you admit the holocaust?
Any criminality is bad.


That's holocaust denial.

Iran is an autocratic country but I do not believe it is a totalitarian state, far from it.

Returning to his statement I think it is a tacit acknowledgement. It's just a very bad one. From any Westerner I'd call it minimalism which goes in tandem with denialism. From the Iranian President and his foreign minister I'd call it progress and again I'd refer back to his relationship with the power bases in his home country.
 

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No, it's a step carefully calculated to buy time for developing nukes. Same old BS. There is no difference between the old president and the new one. Do you understand that the Iranian regime is a totalitarian theocracy and the president has no real power whatsoever?
I see your point, agree, and have no reply to it.
Then I'll minorly disagree, haha. Even if Iran is still a totalitarian theocracy, the actual reformist actions (releasing political prisoners, eg) and the President's changes in tone show that the political atmosphere within Iran has changed significantly from what it was just a few short years ago. It would be a mistake to say "nothing's changed" and then act as if that were true. Any sign of progress ought to be celebrated, and any hint of regress discouraged and condemned.
 

ecofarm

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Then I'll minorly disagree, haha. Even if Iran is still a totalitarian theocracy, the actual reformist actions (releasing political prisoners, eg) and the President's changes in tone show that the political atmosphere within Iran has changed significantly from what it was just a few short years ago. It would be a mistake to say "nothing's changed" and then act as if that were true. Any sign of progress ought to be celebrated, and any hint of regress discouraged and condemned.

The regime needs to be on its best behavior, for any chance the Western world will go back on its word to prevent the regime from developing nukes. The hardliners can suck it up for a couple years, after nukes they will be given power. And the free world can say goodbye to the Persians for at least a couple generations.
 
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