Iran to stone another Woman to death

[angrybeaver]

This entire ****ing thread. You have minimized the action, you have drawn moral equivalencies for the action, you have suggested that we should ignore the action, and most laughably of all you have portrayed the Iranian regime as the victim by stating that they are being picked on.

Bull**** I have not minimised the action nor drawn moral equivalents.
I have never pointed out that should ignore the action in fact I have stated the opposite.
I used the words 'picking on' to describe choosing whereas you used them to describe bullying..and you know it.
I made the point that your berating was selective and impotent..you just didnt like it and have tried to twist my point by obtuseness as well as blatent dishonesty

 

[mpg]

It is not me that has gone off at a tangent.
My point was why make such a fuss about one womans suffering when there are far more dreadful regimes doing far more dreadful things to its citizens.

Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence.

 

[angrybeaver]

Where did I go off on a tangent? I disagree with lots of things going on around the world, but this topic is specifically about Iran and this woman who is sentenced to die by stoning even against their own laws. I can't denounce everything in one post, and I don't have to in order to justify my position. sure there may be worse things around the world, but that doesn't pardon what I ran is doing. How is my opinion selective? This thread is selective (and rightly so), the issue is about Iran and this woman.

The whole point was that the thread was selective.
That you were moaning about molehills when there were mountains to moan about...sheesh

 

[angrybeaver]

Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence.

No it doesnt.
How can pointing out that the premise of the thread selective make the point going off on a tangent.
You seem to be geting a little desperate now

 

[angrybeaver]

She didn't understand the language, confessed under duress and did not get a fair hearing.
How barbaric but nothing I shouldn't expect I suppose considering the source.

So if she did understand the language and was proved to be guilty , stoning would be appropriate?

 

[digsbe]

The whole point was that the thread was selective.
That you were moaning about molehills when there were mountains to moan about...sheesh

Aren't all threads selective? Aren't they supposed to bring to light one topic and open it up for discussion. Sure there are more atrocities around the world, but we shouldn't pardon the less atrocious simply because someone else is worse. We should judge from the highest standard, not the lowest standard.

 

[angrybeaver]

Aren't all threads selective? Aren't they supposed to bring to light one topic and open it up for discussion. Sure there are more atrocities around the world, but we shouldn't pardon the less atrocious simply because someone else is worse. We should judge from the highest standard, not the lowest standard.

I agree but in asking the question that I did I learned more than by just agreeing with the op.

 

[mpg]

No it doesnt.
How can pointing out that the premise of the thread selective make the point going off on a tangent.
You seem to be geting a little desperate now

Discussing other regimes = going off on a tangent. Speculating about the motives of other members = going off on a tangent. Discussing anything other than this woman's sentence = going off on a tangent.

 

[angrybeaver]

Discussing other regimes = going off on a tangent. Speculating about the motives of other members = going off on a tangent. Discussing anything other than this woman's sentence = going off on a tangent.

Yep you're desperate.
In fact you are going off on a tangent lol

 

[Orion]

Oh yeah... to those who say that this isn't en par to U.S. capital punishment because it's stoning a woman to death for having sex and not murder, I think you are equivocating. If you value human life then you must value all life. State executions are a horrendous practice whether it's in the U.S. or Iran.

I get accused of being high and mighty, yet are we supposed to feel better about ourselves 'over here' because we can point the finger at a nation that, to us, is more backwards?

I don't agree with the humanitarian situation the OP talks about. The woman should not be killed. Likewise, people should not be killed by the state in North America. It matters little to me if they are murderers. Life is life and you either value it or you don't.

 

[angrybeaver]

If you believe that capital punishment is murder then the USA is no better than Iran except the USA's method of execution is quicker

 

[Goshin]

Oh yeah... to those who say that this isn't en par to U.S. capital punishment because it's stoning a woman to death for having sex and not murder, I think you are equivocating. If you value human life then you must value all life. State executions are a horrendous practice whether it's in the U.S. or Iran.

I get accused of being high and mighty, yet are we supposed to feel better about ourselves 'over here' because we can point the finger at a nation that, to us, is more backwards?

I don't agree with the humanitarian situation the OP talks about. The woman should not be killed. Likewise, people should not be killed by the state in North America. It matters little to me if they are murderers. Life is life and you either value it or you don't.

No sir, I do not have to value all human life equally, and I don't. I value the lives of the innocent highly; I value the life of a murderer not at all.

 

[Orion]

No sir, I do not have to value all human life equally, and I don't. I value the lives of the innocent highly; I value the life of a murderer not at all.

Okay, so you have your arbitrary definition of the value of life. I have mine. Now let's look at millions of other people. If we add up our collective moralities about who has the right to live and who should die, then you'll find that no life has any value.

Again, the government shouldn't be using tax dollars to commit state murder if those dollars represent people who do NOT want the death penalty enforced.

Putting the murderers away for life is less costly anyway.

 

[angrybeaver]

No sir, I do not have to value all human life equally, and I don't. I value the lives of the innocent highly; I value the life of a murderer not at all.

And Iran does NOT have to value all human life equally either.
They value the lives of adulterer not at all.
Thank you for pointing out that you have selected some people to dehumanise because they have done a wicked ( in your eyes) thing

 

[digsbe]

Again, the government shouldn't be using tax dollars to commit state murder if those dollars represent people who do NOT want the death penalty enforced.

Putting the murderers away for life is less costly anyway.

I would like to see an unbiased source that proves this. I would imagine the death penalty to be cheaper instead of jailing someone for decades (depending on their age).
Personally I am for forced labor in prisons, let them work to help offset the cost of jailing them.

 

[Goshin]

Okay, so you have your arbitrary definition of the value of life. I have mine. Now let's look at millions of other people. If we add up our collective moralities about who has the right to live and who should die, then you'll find that no life has any value.

Again, the government shouldn't be using tax dollars to commit state murder if those dollars represent people who do NOT want the death penalty enforced.

Putting the murderers away for life is less costly anyway.

If you do the bolded sentence, then you have to allow those of us who don't believe in X to opt out to:

Any subsidizing of abortion
welfare
social programs
social insecurity

And you'll have to allow those who don't believe in war, stem cell research, etc to opt out too...

Honestly, Orion... if you can't see there is a huge difference in valuing the lives of the innocent, and requiring a murderer to pay for taking a life with his own, I don't know what to say to you.

People who support abortion and oppose capital punishment baffle me. You hate babies and love murderers??? (I know, that was hyperbole, but sometimes it seems that weird to me.)

 

[Goshin]

And Iran does NOT have to value all human life equally either.
They value the lives of adulterer not at all.
Thank you for pointing out that you have selected some people to dehumanise because they have done a wicked ( in your eyes) thing

The two are not comparable, O Petulent Muskrat.

In one case, a murderer has taken a life.

In the other, a person has possibly broken their marriage vows.

You can't equate the two, because they are orders of magnitude seperated in terms of what was done.


Take a life / lose a life = Balanced.

Break a marriage vow (maybe) / lose a life .... not balanced. The penalty far outweighs the crime, especially when done in such an inhumane manner without even the number of witnesses required by their own laws.

 

[alexa]

Well if you want to take that tact then Mossadeq is responsible for the Shah. Upon being appointed by the Shah and ratified by the Majiles Mossadeq dissolved the parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he gained a 99.9% yay vote, Mossadeq's attempted coup led directly to an increase in the Shah's authoritarianism.

But in actuality the only reason why the Shah was overthrown is not because he was to authoritarian it was because he was to liberal for the Islamist clerical cast who led the revolt after the Shah took the educational institutions out of their hands.

Islamist radicalism not the Shah's authoritarianism is reason for the current Iranian regime.

I was just going by conversations I had with Iranians when I visited in the mid '70's. However

It is refusing to allow me to copy and paste so you will just need to visit yourself. History of Iran: A short account of 1953 Coup

 

[angrybeaver]

The two are not comparable, O Petulent Muskrat.

In one case, a murderer has taken a life.

In the other, a person has possibly broken their marriage vows.

You can't equate the two, because they are orders of magnitude seperated in terms of what was done.


Take a life / lose a life = Balanced.

Break a marriage vow (maybe) / lose a life .... not balanced. The penalty far outweighs the crime, especially when done in such an inhumane manner without even the number of witnesses required by their own laws.

YOU cant equate the two because you believe that your view of morality is superior to everyone elses.
Another nation thinks the same about its own sense of morality and hate you just as much as you hate them.

 

[mpg]

Oh yeah... to those who say that this isn't en par to U.S. capital punishment because it's stoning a woman to death for having sex and not murder, I think you are equivocating. If you value human life then you must value all life. State executions are a horrendous practice whether it's in the U.S. or Iran.

I get accused of being high and mighty, yet are we supposed to feel better about ourselves 'over here' because we can point the finger at a nation that, to us, is more backwards?

I don't agree with the humanitarian situation the OP talks about. The woman should not be killed. Likewise, people should not be killed by the state in North America. It matters little to me if they are murderers. Life is life and you either value it or you don't.

I'm also against capital punishment. I say two wrongs don't make a right. Murder is murder.

However, executing someone after they've been tried, with witnesses and a jury, isn't the same as executing someone who confessed because of torture. Secondly, executing an adulterer isn't the same as executing a murderer. Thirdly, execution by stoning isn't the same as lethal injection. Therefore, the US is irrelevant to this discussion. Actually, the US wouldn't be relevant even if we were exactly the same as Iran. You're hijacking the thread.

 

[Goshin]

YOU cant equate the two because you believe that your view of morality is superior to everyone elses.
Another nation thinks the same about its own sense of morality and hate you just as much as you hate them.

Yup, what with all the threats to nuke Israel and destroy the US and the world, I kinda gathered that they hate us. That's why I think we need to bomb the living crap out of them. :mrgreen:

 

[angrybeaver]

I'm also against capital punishment. I say two wrongs don't make a right. Murder is murder.

However, executing someone after they've been tried, with witnesses and a jury, isn't the same as executing someone who confessed because of torture. Secondly, executing an adulterer isn't the same as executing a murderer. Thirdly, execution by stoning isn't the same as lethal injection. Therefore, the US is irrelevant to this discussion. Actually, the US wouldn't be relevant even if we were exactly the same as Iran. You're hijacking the thread.

I hate to break this to you but some convictions in the States are suspected to be unsafe.
I believe that some confessions have been made under duress......

 

[angrybeaver]

Yup, what with all the threats to nuke Israel and destroy the US and the world, I kinda gathered that they hate us. That's why I think we need to bomb the living crap out of them. :mrgreen:

Thats why you like to cry about Iran rather than about many other even worse regimes..they frighten you.
Also you bombed the living crap outof Vietnam..they won
You are bombing the living crap out of Afghanistan...they are winning

 

[Orion]

If you do the bolded sentence, then you have to allow those of us who don't believe in X to opt out to:

Any subsidizing of abortion
welfare
social programs
social insecurity

My point is that you think it's justifiable to murder a murderer because they killed someone, but you point the finger at another country that stones people for infidelity. Why should I support your brand of morality and not theirs? In reality, I don't support either. You think you're above it, that your morals matter more and you want government to represent that, but government also has to represent people like me who DON'T support state murder.

Honestly, Orion... if you can't see there is a huge difference in valuing the lives of the innocent, and requiring a murderer to pay for taking a life with his own, I don't know what to say to you.

I see the difference from your standpoint, but from my own there is no difference. A human life is a human life.

People who support abortion and oppose capital punishment baffle me. You hate babies and love murderers??? (I know, that was hyperbole, but sometimes it seems that weird to me.)

As I've already stated in other threads, if faced with the option of abortion, I myself would not choose it, but I cannot enforce my morality on others. If others examine their spiritual beliefs and feel that abortion is okay, then I have no business telling them what to do. That is essentially why I am pro-choice.

 

[mpg]

I hate to break this to you but some convictions in the States are suspected to be unsafe.
I believe that some confessions have been made under duress......

In other news, water is wet.