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Iran 'to release British sailors'

Why is Iran releasing the captured UK soldiers they claimed would be brough to trial?

  • Because the UK wanted them to.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Because of UK pressure.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Because Europe together demanded so.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Because the UK demanded so and the EU was behind the UK.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Because of Iran is playing a twisted game.

    Votes: 7 46.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15

Maximus Zeebra

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BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran 'to release British sailors'

Not many days after the EU said they were behind the UK and demanded Iran to release the soldiers, they announce that they will.
Initially Iran said they would have the soldiers on trial and possibly have them for death sentances.

Is this news of release because of European pressure or UK pressure on Iran?

Iran knows that if they went against Europe in this it would make European support for a US invasion of Iran widespread and a combination of a US+European invasion more likely.
 
I do believe the US was supporting the UK and the pressure on Iran as well.
 
Iran was never going to kill those soldiers. They wanted to show that they weren't willing to bend to the political pressure and isolation they've been coming under, but didn't want to start a war. They were looking for a way out. I'm not sure what the Iranians will use as an excuse for letting those soldiers go, but I'm sure that whatever excuse they will give, it will likely be lame.
 
Iran knows that if they went against Europe in this it would make European support for a US invasion of Iran widespread and a combination of a US+European invasion more likely.

If after the Madrid and London bombings Europeans still didn't get on board about this whole terrorism/axis of evil thing. What makes you think 10 captured soldiers would have changed anything? :roll: You live in a fantasy land.
 
If after the Madrid and London bombings Europeans still didn't get on board about this whole terrorism/axis of evil thing. What makes you think 10 captured soldiers would have changed anything? :roll: You live in a fantasy land.

Of course not, the bombins were because those countries were in Iraq. The terrorists said that, we bombed in London because the UK was in Iraq, the terrorists who did it had prerecorded that on tape.

The same in Madrid.

Maybe all European nations should go to Iraq and help the US out of the mess they created themself and then have bombing happen all over Europe. Maybe we should simply take the focus away from the US and transfer it to US so the terrorists hates us instead, what a damn brilliant plan Hatman.

and yes, we are not part of the whole axis of evil/terrorism thing because that retoric is retarded.

We would be on board to stop Iran from harazzing the world and at the same time introduce inspections on their nuclear work.
It would be about the silly US war on terror, everyone else than the US know it will only create more terror.
 
Of course not, the bombins were because those countries were in Iraq. The terrorists said that, we bombed in London because the UK was in Iraq, the terrorists who did it had prerecorded that on tape.

The same in Madrid.

What does that have to do with innocent people being bombed?

Maybe all European nations should go to Iraq and help the US out of the mess they created themself and then have bombing happen all over Europe. Maybe we should simply take the focus away from the US and transfer it to US so the terrorists hates us instead, what a damn brilliant plan Hatman.

This mess we created ourselves? How many times I gotta tell you about the "Coalition of the Willing"? Do you honestly believe terrorist dont hate you already? Are you really that frigging retarded?

* Flag of United States United States: 250,000 invasion--140,000 current (2/07)
* Flag of United Kingdom United Kingdom: 45,000 invasion--7,100 current (2/07)
* Flag of South Korea South Korea: 3,600 peak--2,300 current (2/07)(deployed 5/03)
* Flag of Poland Poland: 194 invasion--2,500 peak--900 current (2/07)
* Flag of Australia Australia: 2,000 invasion--670 current (2/07)
* Flag of Netherlands Netherlands : 1,345 troops 15 current (2/07)(deployed 7/03)
* Flag of Romania Romania: 600 current (2/07)(deployed 7/03)
* Flag of Denmark Denmark: 300 invasion--460 current (2/07)
* Flag of Georgia (country) Georgia: 500 troops--300 current (2/07)
* Flag of El Salvador El Salvador: 380 troops (2/07)
* Flag of Czech Republic Czech Republic: 300 peak--100 current (2/07)
* Flag of Azerbaijan Azerbaijan: 150 troops (2/07)
* Flag of Latvia Latvia: 136 peak--125 current (2/07)(deployed 4/04)
* Flag of Mongolia Mongolia: 131 troops--160 current (2/07)
* Flag of Albania Albania: 120 troops (2/07)
* Flag of Lithuania Lithuania: 53 troops (2/07)
* Flag of Armenia Armenia: 46 current (2/07)
* Flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina Bosnia and Herzegovina: 36 troops (2/07)
* Flag of Estonia Estonia: 35 current (2/07)
* Flag of Republic of Macedonia Macedonia: 33 troops (2/07)(deployed 7/03)
* Flag of Kazakhstan Kazakhstan: 27 troops (2/07)
* Flag of Moldova Moldova: 24 troops--11 current (2/07)
* Flag of Bulgaria Bulgaria : 462 troops 155 current (2/07)
* Flag of Slovakia Slovakia: 103 troops 11 current (1/07)
* Flag of Slovenia Slovenia: 4 current (2/07)



* Flag of Italy Italy: 1,800 troops (deployed 7/03 - withdrawn 11/06)
* Flag of Ukraine Ukraine: 1,650 troops (deployed 8/03 - withdrawn 12/05)
* Flag of Spain Spain : 1,300 troops (deployed 4/03 - withdrawn 4/04)
* Flag of Japan Japan: 600 troops (deployed 1/04 - withdrawn 7/06)
* Flag of Thailand Thailand: 423 troops (deployed 8/03 - withdrawn 8/04)
* Flag of Honduras Honduras: 368 troops (withdrawn 5/04)
* Flag of Dominican Republic Dominican Republic: 302 troops (withdrawn 5/04)
* Flag of Hungary Hungary: 300 troops (withdrawn 3/05)
* Flag of Nicaragua Nicaragua: 230 troops (withdrawn 2/04)
* Flag of Singapore Singapore: 192 troops (deployed 12/03 - withdrawn 3/05)
* Flag of Norway Norway: 150 troops (withdrawn 8/06)
* Flag of Portugal Portugal: 128 troops (withdrawn 2/05)
* Flag of New Zealand New Zealand: 61 troops (deployed 9/03 - withdrawn 9/04)
* Flag of Philippines Philippines: 51 troops (deployed 7/03 - withdrawn 7/04)
* Flag of Tonga Tonga: 45 troops (deployed 7/04 - withdrawn 12/04)
* Flag of Iceland

and yes, we are not part of the whole axis of evil/terrorism thing because that retoric is retarded.

Yeah I'm sure the people who died at the Madrid, London bombings really think fighting terrorism is retarded too. :roll:

We would be on board to stop Iran from harazzing the world and at the same time introduce inspections on their nuclear work.
It would be about the silly US war on terror, everyone else than the US know it will only create more terror.

And appeasing terrorists the way you plan on doing will create Europistan and the United Arab States of America. I'll take our way anytime thank you.
 
The Iranians created this incident to test the will of the West and demonstrate their own power, just as Iran-backed Hezbollah was able to measure Israel's resolution and the support of its own rank-and-file by Jerusalem's reaction to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Why does Iran want to provoke and then measure reactions? First of all, Tehran strives for domination in the Islamic world and it believes it can win the admiration of both Sunnis and Shiites by challenging the West. The mullahs assume that animosity to the West among Muslims is so deep and common that small victories and symbolic humiliations can bridge differences between the main Islamic branches. The kidnapping as a publicity stunt is particularly directed toward the mostly Sunni Arabic public.

Iran has once again proven masterful at the centuries old Arab negotiating tactic of retreating when attacked and attacking when your opponent is weakened.

Just my opinion. YMMV.
 
I don't think it's got anything to do with any of those options. Assuming that the sailors had violated their waters, and they were seized on those grounds, and also assuming that the sailors were not engaged in blatant espionage, it would be standard procedure to capture, interrogate, and then release them after a few days.

That said, I think there's a very deep game being played over Iran, and I don't have all the answers, but a couple salient facts that I think need to be kept in mind:

1) Russia, China, Venezuela, and Brazil all have significant ties to Iran. War with Iran would anger those countries and unleash retaliation from them on any country that attacks. Whether that would entail military or economic retaliation, or both, is hard to say. Thinking only about China, should they stop trading with the United States and should they dump their dollar reserves, it would hurt both us and them, but they're prepared to take that hurt. We're not, and they are waking up to that fact. We could not withstand a combined military assault on our positions in the Middle East by China and Russia while simultaneously enduring the loss of Venezuelan oil and the loss of Iranian, Russian, and Iraqi oil from the world market. China has the cash reserves to outbid us. War with Iran will cost us far more than most people understand.

2) If we're just talking about stealing oil for Western Corporations, there's considerable uncertainty about whether the juice is worth the squeeze. Iran may have a lot of oil, or it may not. There's quite a bit of information that their oil industry may fail by next decade.

3) Bush co. hopefully understand that a serious enough pretext has to be found to start war with Iran so as not to incur the wrath of Russia and China. We're shopping for that kind of pretext because geopolitically, if we can take Iran with little consequence, we will be the last man standing as we slide down the backslope of oil production starting this decade. Russia's got plenty of oil left (more than we do) but their land area is much larger so it takes more energy to run industry. More than likely, Russia will effectively fragment (whether they appear to politically or not). But if we could get Iran to do something really stupid (like sink a carrier or blow up an embassy), China and Russia will not be able to credibly oppose any retaliation.

4) As a close corrollary, it is almost certain that both Chinese and Russian intelligence is working actively in Iraq, Iran, and Afganistan to prevent us getting that kind of pretext. Watch the news in the next few months for rumors that Russia had something to do with this release; it'll merit a passing mention on CNN or BBC news. You can then dig into the alternative news for the full story. That full story will most likely be that the behind-the-scenes dialogue included some kind of ace-in-the-hole that Russia was holding that would weaken this as a premise for war, while at the same time showing that Iran had little cause to continue to hold the sailors.

5) Our intelligence in that area of the world continues to be pretty bad. There is no imminent revolution in Iran. The only revolution taking place is a cultural one, and it's quite a bit more tame than most would like to believe in the west. The people are not about to rise up and overthrow the Ayatollah.

6) All that said, we may still go to war with Iran without a pretext. If we do, it will not necessarily be a blunder, depending on specifics. Geopolitically, and assuming we don't have to worry about such silly things as having human empathy for the people doing the dying, going into Iraq was the right thing to do. The Saudis needed the oil to mask the failure of their Shedgun and Uthmaniyah mega-projects and the rapid decline of their oil production, and we needed a police station closer to the center of the action. Iran is another story. They're selling oil in Euros and are considering Yen and Yuan, which will ultimately have the effect of crashing the dollar if they can make it stick for a while. Additionally, continuously increasing production constraints worldwide will make conditions very, very bad before too long. Right now, the effect it's having is that third world countries are being priced out of the bidding, freeing up the oil they'd have otherwise consumed for first world nations. That game cannot continue forever, though, and our leaders understand that. Taking Iran would solidify our hold on the Middle East, and would ultimately control Saudi Arabia when the time comes for that.

As for what Iran wants, Oldreliable more or less nailed it. Iran is not a bloodthirsty nation any more than we are; if their oil industry is failing, however, they have a motivation to get western powers out of the Middle East. They'll have managed to resurrect the Persian empire if that happens.
 
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Of course not, the bombins were because those countries were in Iraq. The terrorists said that, we bombed in London because the UK was in Iraq, the terrorists who did it had prerecorded that on tape.

That's not what was said at all. They launched a huge rant about a global war on muslims in Chechnya, Kashmir, Israel, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq. They also lambasted western materialism and proclaimed their loyalty to the one true god amongst some other things.

As easy as it is to blame Iraq, there's no way 4 young men from Leeds decided to murder 50+ of their fellow countrymen solely because of it.

I didn't like the war either, but I'm going to blow up the London underground.
 
The Iranians created this incident to test the will of the West and demonstrate their own power, just as Iran-backed Hezbollah was able to measure Israel's resolution and the support of its own rank-and-file by Jerusalem's reaction to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Why does Iran want to provoke and then measure reactions? First of all, Tehran strives for domination in the Islamic world and it believes it can win the admiration of both Sunnis and Shiites by challenging the West. The mullahs assume that animosity to the West among Muslims is so deep and common that small victories and symbolic humiliations can bridge differences between the main Islamic branches. The kidnapping as a publicity stunt is particularly directed toward the mostly Sunni Arabic public.

Iran has once again proven masterful at the centuries old Arab negotiating tactic of retreating when attacked and attacking when your opponent is weakened.

Just my opinion. YMMV.

Of course. The US having invaded its neighbor based on false pretenses, having called Iran the axis of evil right after Iran helped us in Afganistan, kidnapping six Iranian diplomats and holding them without due process etc etc etc is it any surprise that the Iranians would react that way?

How does the US respond to far less provocation?
 
The Iranians created this incident to test the will of the West and demonstrate their own power, just as Iran-backed Hezbollah was able to measure Israel's resolution and the support of its own rank-and-file by Jerusalem's reaction to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Why does Iran want to provoke and then measure reactions? First of all, Tehran strives for domination in the Islamic world and it believes it can win the admiration of both Sunnis and Shiites by challenging the West. The mullahs assume that animosity to the West among Muslims is so deep and common that small victories and symbolic humiliations can bridge differences between the main Islamic branches. The kidnapping as a publicity stunt is particularly directed toward the mostly Sunni Arabic public.

Iran has once again proven masterful at the centuries old Arab negotiating tactic of retreating when attacked and attacking when your opponent is weakened.

Just my opinion. YMMV.

Of course.

Not to strategically defend the Iranian action of taking the British sailors. I thought they would have been nuts not to release them. But the US having invaded and occupied Iran's neighbor based on false pretenses, having called Iran the axis of evil right after Iran helped us in Afganistan and offered a peace plan including putting its nuclear facilities on the table, kidnapping six Iranian diplomats and holding them without due process etc etc etc is it any surprise that the Iranians would react to blantant US hostility?

How does the US respond to far less provocation?
 
Maybe all European nations should go to Iraq and help the US out of the mess they created themself and then have bombing happen all over Europe.

But you've been so good at being afraid of doing anything, why start now?

Someone bombed us? It's okay, it's our fault... not the terrorists. :roll:
 
But you've been so good at being afraid of doing anything, why start now?

Someone bombed us? It's okay, it's our fault... not the terrorists. :roll:

So therefore, you bomb someone, its OK, its their fault, not yours? :roll:[/QUOTE]
 
So therefore, you bomb someone, its OK, its their fault, not yours? :roll:
[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between being at war, following laws of war, NOT targeting civilians and actually targeting civilians to instill fear into a country... which obviously worked.
 
There's a difference between being at war, following laws of war, NOT targeting civilians and actually targeting civilians to instill fear into a country... which obviously worked.

Yes sir, there are lots of differences from the simplistic notion stated in your post.
 
I cannot vote in this poll, because the real reason that the British sailors were freed was not even an option:

Kidnapped Iranian diplomat released in Iraq

What is sickening about all of this is that I had to get this information from a Chinese news source, because the American mediawhores are not even mentioning it.
 
I don't think it's got anything to do with any of those options. Assuming that the sailors had violated their waters, and they were seized on those grounds, and also assuming that the sailors were not engaged in blatant espionage, it would be standard procedure to capture, interrogate, and then release them after a few days.

That said, I think there's a very deep game being played over Iran, and I don't have all the answers, but a couple salient facts that I think need to be kept in mind:

1) Russia, China, Venezuela, and Brazil all have significant ties to Iran. War with Iran would anger those countries and unleash retaliation from them on any country that attacks. Whether that would entail military or economic retaliation, or both, is hard to say. Thinking only about China, should they stop trading with the United States and should they dump their dollar reserves, it would hurt both us and them, but they're prepared to take that hurt. We're not, and they are waking up to that fact. We could not withstand a combined military assault on our positions in the Middle East by China and Russia while simultaneously enduring the loss of Venezuelan oil and the loss of Iranian, Russian, and Iraqi oil from the world market. China has the cash reserves to outbid us. War with Iran will cost us far more than most people understand.

2) If we're just talking about stealing oil for Western Corporations, there's considerable uncertainty about whether the juice is worth the squeeze. Iran may have a lot of oil, or it may not. There's quite a bit of information that their oil industry may fail by next decade.

3) Bush co. hopefully understand that a serious enough pretext has to be found to start war with Iran so as not to incur the wrath of Russia and China. We're shopping for that kind of pretext because geopolitically, if we can take Iran with little consequence, we will be the last man standing as we slide down the backslope of oil production starting this decade. Russia's got plenty of oil left (more than we do) but their land area is much larger so it takes more energy to run industry. More than likely, Russia will effectively fragment (whether they appear to politically or not). But if we could get Iran to do something really stupid (like sink a carrier or blow up an embassy), China and Russia will not be able to credibly oppose any retaliation.

4) As a close corrollary, it is almost certain that both Chinese and Russian intelligence is working actively in Iraq, Iran, and Afganistan to prevent us getting that kind of pretext. Watch the news in the next few months for rumors that Russia had something to do with this release; it'll merit a passing mention on CNN or BBC news. You can then dig into the alternative news for the full story. That full story will most likely be that the behind-the-scenes dialogue included some kind of ace-in-the-hole that Russia was holding that would weaken this as a premise for war, while at the same time showing that Iran had little cause to continue to hold the sailors.

5) Our intelligence in that area of the world continues to be pretty bad. There is no imminent revolution in Iran. The only revolution taking place is a cultural one, and it's quite a bit more tame than most would like to believe in the west. The people are not about to rise up and overthrow the Ayatollah.

6) All that said, we may still go to war with Iran without a pretext. If we do, it will not necessarily be a blunder, depending on specifics. Geopolitically, and assuming we don't have to worry about such silly things as having human empathy for the people doing the dying, going into Iraq was the right thing to do. The Saudis needed the oil to mask the failure of their Shedgun and Uthmaniyah mega-projects and the rapid decline of their oil production, and we needed a police station closer to the center of the action. Iran is another story. They're selling oil in Euros and are considering Yen and Yuan, which will ultimately have the effect of crashing the dollar if they can make it stick for a while. Additionally, continuously increasing production constraints worldwide will make conditions very, very bad before too long. Right now, the effect it's having is that third world countries are being priced out of the bidding, freeing up the oil they'd have otherwise consumed for first world nations. That game cannot continue forever, though, and our leaders understand that. Taking Iran would solidify our hold on the Middle East, and would ultimately control Saudi Arabia when the time comes for that.

As for what Iran wants, Oldreliable more or less nailed it. Iran is not a bloodthirsty nation any more than we are; if their oil industry is failing, however, they have a motivation to get western powers out of the Middle East. They'll have managed to resurrect the Persian empire if that happens.

Very good points, though as to the last paragraph I'm not convinced Iran's reactions are more for a desire to resurrect the Persian empire as opposed to a reaction to US hostility in Iraq and to Iran itself.
 
I cannot vote in this poll, because the real reason that the British sailors were freed was not even an option:

Kidnapped Iranian diplomat released in Iraq

What is sickening about all of this is that I had to get this information from a Chinese news source, because the American mediawhores are not even mentioning it.

It was on CNN.

It was carried by USA Today.

It was on Reuters.

Even the Lakeland, FL Ledger carried the story - today, but better late than?

Among others.
 
Very good points, though as to the last paragraph I'm not convinced Iran's reactions are more for a desire to resurrect the Persian empire as opposed to a reaction to US hostility in Iraq and to Iran itself.

A core goal of fundamentalist Islam is re-establish the caliphate. IIRC, Bin Laden has mentioned this more than once in his various pronouncements.
 
A core goal of fundamentalist Islam is re-establish the caliphate. IIRC, Bin Laden has mentioned this more than once in his various pronouncements.

Bin Laden isn't Iran. Perhaps Iranian clerics have said the same thing. From my limited perspective, however, this is the objective of a small radical minority, not the objective of Muslims as a whole. In any case, whether that is their objective or not, it's not very realistic. No nation in the ME has the capacity to even remotely attempt such a thing. The ME is too fractured to suppose that they would unite under a single caliphate. Wasn't that movement attempted last century to set up a pan-Muslim entity?

Muslims cannot even agree on controlling a united Iraq, much less a united ME much less conquering the world under a united caliphate.

If there is such a threat, the worst thing we could do is take unjustified agressive military action against ME countries. Nothing unites people more than a common enemy, perceived or otherwise.
 
Oldreliabe, Iriemon,

I think you're both correct. I don't know of any nation that has ever existed whose politics wasn't about the acquisition and administration of power. But equally, we have a lot of blood on our hands in that area of the world, not just from our recent wars, but from our management of the region post WWII. There are Iranians alive today who remember the CIA-trained SAVAK police and their brutality. It's not something likely to be forgotten any time soon, and we bear some of the responsibility for it.

Nations tend to aspire to more power than they have. But there are real grievances that the people of the Middle East have against the west, and we cannot, and should not, forget it.

As to my remark about the Persian Empire--I didn't mean to suggest that, specifically, was their motive.
 
Not many days after the EU said they were behind the UK and demanded Iran to release the soldiers, they announce that they will.
Initially Iran said they would have the soldiers on trial and possibly have them for death sentances.

Ya, but that was never going to actually happen.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Is this news of release because of European pressure or UK pressure on Iran?

Neither. It's because of the UK's behind-the-scenes diplomacy and negotiations with Iran.

Maximus Zeebra said:
Iran knows that if they went against Europe in this it would make European support for a US invasion of Iran widespread and a combination of a US+European invasion more likely.

Invasion of Iran? Where exactly do you think we're going to get the troops to do that?
 
Bin Laden isn't Iran. Perhaps Iranian clerics have said the same thing.

A major Iranian objective, as already discussed, is to unite Sunni - Shia Muslims behind Iran. The Iranian leadership, going all the way back to the Ayatollah Khomeini, believes that it has to do this in order to become the regional hegemon that they fervently aspire to. They believe that their acqusition of nukes will be the hallmark of their ascendancy and force other Arab nations into virtual, if not actual, obeisance. Note that this comes mainly from the clerical leadership, the mullahs, if you will, to whom the political leadership owes its existence.

From my limited perspective, however, this is the objective of a small radical minority, not the objective of Muslims as a whole.

Thank goodness it is still the aim of a radical minority. Given the number of Muslims in the world, if radicalism grows to be a majority, the rest of the world will be in considerably more trouble than at present. Nonetheless, they are presently a significant problem in that so many of this "radical minority" are willing to fly planes into buildings and engage in other high-impact martyrdom operations. In other words, the impact of this radical minority can be much greater than their relatively small numbers suggest.

In any case, whether that is their objective or not, it's not very realistic. No nation in the ME has the capacity to even remotely attempt such a thing. The ME is too fractured to suppose that they would unite under a single caliphate. Wasn't that movement attempted last century to set up a pan-Muslim entity?

You have just described one of the primary motivations of those countries seeking to obtain the first Arab atomic weapons. The first Islamic nukes are already in the hands of the Pakistanis, who, thankfully, are thus far primarily concerned more with their arch-enemy India and less with the radical Islamic agenda. If that changes...

Muslims cannot even agree on controlling a united Iraq, much less a united ME much less conquering the world under a united caliphate.

And lets hope it stays that way.

If there is such a threat, the worst thing we could do is take unjustified agressive military action against ME countries. Nothing unites people more than a common enemy, perceived or otherwise.

"unjustified" will always to some extent, be a case of beauty in the eye of the beholder. As has always been the case since the beginning of recorded time, some will require less justification; some will requre more.

Right now, it seems that we are playing a hugely belated game of catch-up in our acquisition of knowledge and experience on how to effectively deal with ME countries. And, IMO, we're still not doing an adequate job of it: too many mistakes in dealing with Iran in the past, too many mistakes in dealing with Iraq in the present, and too little accumulation of institutional knowledge of ME culture - all despite decades of reliance on middle eastern natural resources and dogged pursuit of stability in the region with strategies that have continued to fail over time.

About the only success we have enjoyed is continued access to ME oil. But even that is bittersweet when we recognize that the revenues therefrom have eventually funded various terrorist groups. We seem to be always a day late and a dollar short in our dealings with ME countries.

JMO. YMMV.
 
What does that have to do with innocent people being bombed?

This mess we created ourselves? How many times I gotta tell you about the "Coalition of the Willing"? Do you honestly believe terrorist dont hate you already? Are you really that frigging retarded?

Yeah I'm sure the people who died at the Madrid, London bombings really think fighting terrorism is retarded too. :roll:

And appeasing terrorists the way you plan on doing will create Europistan and the United Arab States of America. I'll take our way anytime thank you.


Now thats retarde. How 150 million arab muslims around the middle east will invade Europe and the US who have a combined population of 800 million people is beyond my comprehension. Even if all of them moved from the lidde east it would still only make up 15% of the populations in that case..


The Spanish has fought terrorism at home for decades, they are not going to invade guatemala now just because they had a terrorist attack in Madrid. Silly..

I am done debating anything with you hatman, your retoric is just too one sided and primitive. Are you doing this on purpose or are these really your honest opinions?
 
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