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Interesting question i have.

porkchopexpress

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President Bush and Republican controlled Congress passed a measure to cut the Veterans Administration budget, which was already underfunded and weak to begin with, by 10 billion over the next 10 years, including a 1 BILLION dollar shortfall this year. How can anyone say this is supporting the troops? Bush avoided combat then does this to the troops - do you support this?

How can you support this? It's a national disgrace.
 

debate_junkie

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porkchopexpress said:
President Bush and Republican controlled Congress passed a measure to cut the Veterans Administration budget, which was already underfunded and weak to begin with, by 10 billion over the next 10 years, including a 1 BILLION dollar shortfall this year. How can anyone say this is supporting the troops? Bush avoided combat then does this to the troops - do you support this?

How can you support this? It's a national disgrace.
I would sooner see him cut welfare than the VA's budget. Their hospital's are already understaffed, and care for many disabled veterans is going to go swirly. It IS a disgrace to ask for America to support the troops already in combat, but with the swipe of a pen disregard a veteran who's ALREADY served his country.
 

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porkchopexpress said:
President Bush and Republican controlled Congress passed a measure to cut the Veterans Administration budget,
After they had already increased it by far over anything any other president ever has. There has not been a President who has support the VA more than this one.

See: http://www.factcheck.org/article144.html
Funding for Veterans up 27%, But Democrats Call It A Cut

Money for Veterans goes up faster under Bush than under Clinton, yet Kerry accuses Bush of an unpatriotic breach of faith.
 

Stinger

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debate_junkie said:
I would sooner see him cut welfare than the VA's budget. Their hospital's are already understaffed, and care for many disabled veterans is going to go swirly. It IS a disgrace to ask for America to support the troops already in combat, but with the swipe of a pen disregard a veteran who's ALREADY served his country.
It's a disgrace when people post such malarky without checking out the facts.
 

cnredd

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porkchopexpress said:
President Bush and Republican controlled Congress passed a measure to cut the Veterans Administration budget, which was already underfunded and weak to begin with, by 10 billion over the next 10 years, including a 1 BILLION dollar shortfall this year. How can anyone say this is supporting the troops? Bush avoided combat then does this to the troops - do you support this?

How can you support this? It's a national disgrace.
It that what's going on? Or is that what agenda driven people TELL you whats going on?

Check out this article from factcheck.org from last year...It's the SAME argument for this year...Read the lies...

In the Feb. 15 Democratic debate, Kerry suggested that Bush was being unpatriotic: “He’s cut the VA (Veterans Administration) budget and not kept faith with veterans across this country. And one of the first definitions of patriotism is keeping faith with those who wore the uniform of our country.”

It is true that Bush is not seeking as big an increase for next year as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs wanted. It is also true that the administration has tried to slow the growth of spending for veterans by not giving new benefits to some middle-income vets.

Yet even so, funding for veterans is going up twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton. And the number of veterans getting health benefits is going up 25% under Bush's budgets. That's hardly a cut.

In Bush’s first three years funding for the Veterans Administration increased 27%. And if Bush's 2005 budget is approved, funding for his full four-year term will amount to an increase of 37.6%.

In the eight years of the Clinton administration the increase was 31.7%.


http://www.factcheck.org/article144.html

I'm still looking for anything from this year...It's still pretty early for a detailed analysis...

BTW- The estimate for 2004 in the article was $60.296 billion...The ACTUAL amount came to $64 billion

The is for 2006...

The Department of Veterans Affairs would see its discretionary spending rise $880 million to $33.4 billion, including revenue from fees collected for some medical services. Most discretionary spending at the VA goes to health care, and the department expects to provide care for 5.2 million patients in fiscal 2006.

In a change criticized by some veterans groups, the budget would more than double prescription drug co-payments for some veterans from $7 to $15, and require them to pay an annual enrollment fee of $250. VA officials said the increases, which would generate about $454 million in revenue, would apply to about 2.37 million non-disabled, higher-income veterans, only about 1.2 million of whom actually use the VA health care system.

Overall, the department's budget would rise to $70.8 billion, including $37.4 billion in mandatory funding on entitlements, such as disability payments, pensions and education and rehabilitation programs for veterans


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/budget06/budget06Agencies.html

If their are 3 VA hospitals closing down for whatever reason(deterioration, poor medical assistance, lack of local veterans..."white elephant")...but there are 12 new ones being built, the headline should read "VA hospitals to increase by 9"...But those with an agenda will write "Administration closes 3 Veterans Hospitals"...Notice the difference?

I suspect you have been deceived with this ploy...I also noticed you didn't supply a source for this accusation...
 
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cnredd

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Stinger said:
It's a disgrace when people post such malarky without checking out the facts.
How about that, Stinger? Are we the "kings of timing" or what?

We even used the same article!:2wave:
 

ShamMol

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This is the problem as I see it. It isn't that he didn't increase it enough. It was the he didn't forsee the problem that he would encounter. He is going into war right? And from that war will be many new casualties and many new people who have be treated for a long period of time under the VA budget. Now, in the initial planning stages, he didn't say, we need to plan for this and start to increase it for everyone ever more now. That is where I fault the president, not for not raising the funds, becuase he has done that-and I credit him for that unlike Billy Boy.

Another issue with the VA that I have is that they treat reg. military different than people in the reserves. If you are in the reserves you basically get jack treatment now. That has to change and will create even a bigger shortfall. Considering how many more reservists and other personell besides reg. military have been used in these wars, that attitude has to change and change for the better so that all people in the military get the same treatment.

Is that fair?

And cnredd, I was gonna post the factcheck.org article as well, but you beat me to it. I am a big fan of their work and actually I have a friend who is applying to work there in his second semester this year.
 

cnredd

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ShamMol said:
And cnredd, I was gonna post the factcheck.org article as well, but you beat me to it. I am a big fan of their work and actually I have a friend who is applying to work there in his second semester this year.
I have SUCH an urge to start a thread with a list of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" sources...

When it comes to facts...factcheck.org and MAYBE snopes.com...

Surveys...Pew Research...

I hate it when someone uses an "Op-Ed" piece as a source...

I said this before....How much credibility can one have when they use agenda driven links?

"I think Hillary Clinton is a great person...Here is my source..."

http://www.IthinkHillaryClintonisagreatperson.com

It's total BS...
 

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ShamMol said:
This is the problem as I see it. It isn't that he didn't increase it enough. It was the he didn't forsee the problem that he would encounter.
There is no reason to believe that our veterens are not recieving the top most care and that the Administration is not doing everything it can for them. But let's do keep in mind the VA IS a government agency and judge it accordingly.
 

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Stinger said:
There is no reason to believe that our veterens are not recieving the top most care and that the Administration is not doing everything it can for them. But let's do keep in mind the VA IS a government agency and judge it accordingly.
You seemed to have not read the rest of my post about how it is providing inadequate treatment to the increased numbers of people in the system. But nevertheless, I will go on and say that you are correct in saying that it is an agency and we must judge it accordingly.

Judging...provides care for the best our country has to offer...but yet fails to recognize the importance of reservists and national gaurdsmen. Judgement complete and the verdict is that it needs to be changed so that everyone gets the same treatment. That means significantly increasing funding, and thus raising taxes, but hey, let's not mention those ugly words, now shall we...
 

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Well the only true way to find out if the vets are getting enough care si to ask them. So let me have my mom(who works at a naval hospital)ask around. Lets see what we will find. Results will be in the end of the week.
 

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I just want to interject for a moment...

Although I believe there is MUCH discussion on what Veterans need and what is provided, please keep in mind that this discussion was originally about this...

porkchopexpress said:
President Bush and Republican controlled Congress passed a measure to cut the Veterans Administration budget, which was already underfunded and weak to begin with, by 10 billion over the next 10 years, including a 1 BILLION dollar shortfall this year. How can anyone say this is supporting the troops? Bush avoided combat then does this to the troops - do you support this?

How can you support this? It's a national disgrace.
We have now proven that this post, presented to you from the THWoA(Tinfoil Hat Wearers of America), is a lie and the person who posted it should be remembered for inadequate research & unobjectivity.

Proceed...:smile:
 

SKILMATIC

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How can I proceed with a post like that? You just debacled all of his theories. Damn you, for proving him wrong before me. :lol:
 

ShamMol

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SKILMATIC said:
Well the only true way to find out if the vets are getting enough care si to ask them. So let me have my mom(who works at a naval hospital)ask around. Lets see what we will find. Results will be in the end of the week.
And that will have absolutely no effect on what I said. I said that everyone has to get the same treatment. There is different treatment availiable to a reg military than to someone who is in the reserves. Once someone has been treated and is in the reserves, they are sol. They don't get continual treatment unlike those in the reg military. That type of stuff. She would never find that in her military hospital.
 

SKILMATIC

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Well you arent going to give full treatment if someone served in the reserves you idiot. :doh

That is understandable becasue you only serve one weekend a month and 2 weeks in the year. And it wouldnt be fair to those who serve full active duty for several years to get the same treatment and benefits as those who only serve 16hours a month.

Do you even know anything about how the military works as far as benefits? You need to know this before speaking on this thread. If you dont then you have no room to talk on these matters if you had no partake in them.

The simlple fact of the matter is my mom would becasue they always do a medical screening or evaluation in the form of physical and backround check. My mom's rate is a corpman and she works as a lpo of her section at Balboa hospital.
I already got some results in today. And they are very intriguing. Considering 90% of those seen today were active duty.

All the queston is going to be is do you think you are gettting adequate medical care and beneifits considering what type of duty you are in whther it be active duty or reservist? That way it puts the answer in the persons hands. They have the choice to say no or yes. It realy is a simple question. I dont know how this would be impossible?
 

ShamMol

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SKILMATIC said:
Well you arent going to give full treatment if someone served in the reserves you idiot. :doh

That is understandable becasue you only serve one weekend a month and 2 weeks in the year. And it wouldnt be fair to those who serve full active duty for several years to get the same treatment and benefits as those who only serve 16hours a month.

Do you even know anything about how the military works as far as benefits? You need to know this before speaking on this thread. If you dont then you have no room to talk on these matters if you had no partake in them.

The simlple fact of the matter is my mom would becasue they always do a medical screening or evaluation in the form of physical and backround check. My mom's rate is a corpman and she works as a lpo of her section at Balboa hospital.
I already got some results in today. And they are very intriguing. Considering 90% of those seen today were active duty.

All the queston is going to be is do you think you are gettting adequate medical care and beneifits considering what type of duty you are in whther it be active duty or reservist? That way it puts the answer in the persons hands. They have the choice to say no or yes. It realy is a simple question. I dont know how this would be impossible?
But the problem with that attitude is that with this war it has changed. In past wars, they weren't deployed in such numbers and didn't have the same number of casualties/injuries and thus it was not even on our radar screen. My point being this. They have served our country honorably and when they are injured (long lasting included) they are basically shown the door. Those people need and deserve the same care that our reg military gets because they are doing basically the same jobs.

The navy is different, which is likely why you got those results, but still, is nonetheless semi-acurate. But that doesn't make it right. Even if it were 10% of the injuries or casualties, those people still deserve the same treatment, and they aren't getting it. It is that simple in my eyes. I have family members who have been reservists and I have members who are active (mind you distant relatives, husbands of cousins, etc). I don't see their service or sacrifice any differently than I do a reg military personell. If they get injuried and require treatment for however long, they should get it. It should be that simple...but I guess it just isn't.
 

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Dude you need to talk to someone who is in the reserves or nat gaurd. I was in the navy now I am n the national gaurd.

I can tell you with sureness that when injury occurs while in the heat of combat or while in uniform(duty), whether your active duty or reservist, the enlistee is entitled to full active duty benefits. For example, if I am serving my one weekend a month and I trip and fall down some stairs and I brake my leg I wil get full treatment to that injury along with other benefits such as medications and medical evaluations to make sure the injury is taken care of.

Now if I am not serving and in the course of the week I brake my leg I am not entitled to any benefits. Why would I be? I am only serving part time so you get part time benefits its just the same in every civilian job you apply too. Get the facts please. Now if I was active duty and brake my leg even though I wasnt actually on duty then I stil receive benefits casue I am considered full time of course. Its very simeple concepts.

And not everyone that goes to Balboa is navy. Most of the people there are actually marines.
 

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Most of the people there are marines which future proves the point that there really aren't any significant numbers of national guardmens or reservists. Listen man, I have no hope of convincing you, so really, what is the point. You have you posistion which obviously you think is completely correct and comes from your experience, and I have mine which comes from listening to someone who had his leg blown off who can't get treatment now because he was a reservist. There were three other people at that meeting who were reservists and one national gaurdsmen, all who served in Iraq, and now need medical treatment, either mental, or physical, and aren't getting it.

If you get injured while serving, you should get treated, and that just isn't happening in a lot of cases and without increased funding it will continue. But of course, I can't convince you of this. Hell, even in Bill Frist's talk at Nantucket he agreed to this when the subject was brought up. You realize that? No, of course there is no problem at all.
 

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Look, thats not true if someone got his leg blown off while in combat whether or not he was a nat gaurdsmen or reservist or active duty you are entiltled to active duty benefits it says in the GI Bill IF YOU SIMPLY READ IT. Yeah he may not be getting treated because he may not know all the benefits. I can gaurantee you that if he steps foot into either MCRD, Balboa he would get treated. And it should be the same near you as well. Also the military offers a civilian medical plan called tricare. For next to nothing a month(I think its $18) you and your beneficiaries will get ful medical coverage. I dont know how you think you are right regardless if you spoke to someone that got his leg blown off. I knew several marines that didnt even know half of what consisted of there medical coverage. The coverage is there, he just needs to know it. Encourage your friend to read the Montgomery GI Bill it will have all that info.
 

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I will read it and then pass along the knowledge to him, but how much would you bill willing to bet that the beauracracy doesn't know half of what is in the bill as well. That is the way it works with welfare and the dpss-show them regs and they go bonkers like they have never seen daylight. I wonder if this is the same situation, though it is certainly worth investigating.
 

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Shamol, I love the military and whoevers in it. If you want you can have your friend call me or my good buddies at the VA office. I will 100% gaurantee you that if thats the case I can get him or the VA can get him full medical service. I give you my word. I do not tolerate my brothers not getting taken care of :boohoo: it really makes me sad. I beg you to get ahold of the nearest VA office near your freind and have them take care of any of your conerns or his concerns. Please letme know what happens. If you seem to not get help please call me and I will take care of it.

PS. Tell your friend I appreciate him and his service. I will do whatever it takes to serve him.

Sincerely
 

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That's nice to hear. Marty is a good guy, and frankly it was by chance that I even ever met him and now I can't imagine like watching a Patriot's game without him you know?

I have a friend who is a lawyer at Girardi and Keese, also in the naval reserve, and I am sure he will help me as well, but I will remember this and possibly use it if I don't make any headway.

BTW-downloaded a copy and I am going to start paging through it tonight.
 

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O good I am so glad to hear that.


BTW-downloaded a copy and I am going to start paging through it tonight.
O you didnt have to do that. I would have sent you a written copy of it. But I am glad you are reading it. Let me know if you have any trouble. Also the VA will also train your friend and find a job for him. This is all free. He is also up for full school benefits. Yep you heard it he can and his beneficiaries can now go to whatever college they would like in his state for free(thats right no cost). IF YOU HAVE A PURPLE HEART WHICH I AM ASSUMING HE DOES SINCE HE HAS NO LEG, HE NOW HAS MORE BENEFITS THEN I DO. Theres so much benefits for purple heart receivers its rediculous. Literally, if someone has a purple heart they have more benefits then that of present active duty members.

But let me know if you have nay questions regarding the info there.
 

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You have the balls to distort facts so badly. Nice link to an "authoriative source", one which promotes your agenda. I am glad i came back to check the inane replies.
********************************
The administration has widely touted a $1.7 billion increase in discretionary funding for the Education Department in its 2005 budget, but the 2006 guidance would pare that back by $1.5 billion. The Department of Veterans Affairs is scheduled to get a $519 million spending increase in 2005, to $29.7 billion, and a $910 million cut in 2006 that would bring its budget below the 2004 level.
********************************
You guys, and your source are right about 2005 - whereas I am talking about 2006. When more vets will be coming home.

And as far as the debate about what coverage who gets - my mother works at the local VA hospital - she sees messed up stuff and has to turn people away every day because they "dont qualify". So quit spreading lies.
 

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As a Veteran who keeps up with Veteran benefits and uses the Va for my medical services I can tell you that there has been no cuts in funding or benefits.......In fact this president and his administration has passed the biggest raises and increased benefits more then any President since Nixon........I have nothing but kudos for the VA.

This spin that the left puts out is and outright lie and a means to try and turn the military and veteran personnel against this president who they admire.........Its not working though.......Our military and veteran personnel are way to far for that.........
 
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