Intelligent Design

[ShivanCommander]

Hello, just seeing what everyone's thoughts are on intelligent design. Intelligent design is the idea that life and the universe were created by a highly sophisticated entity known as the intelligent designer, or intelligent agent. This intelligent designer then created the universe to it's own specifications and created life in it. It's a non-religious view on creationism and the origins of man, as opposed to evolution and natural selection. What are your thoughts on intelligent design?

More Info: Intelligent design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Deuce]

Intelligent design is creationism repacked with pseudo-scientific terminology to try and lend it credence for discussion in a science class. The goal is to push Christianity onto children in public schools. It is absolutely not a "non-religious" idea.

There is absolutely no scientific basis for creationism or intelligent design. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar or a fool.

GTVA for life.

Edit: You probably disagree. Feel free to post the scientific evidence that favors ID and I'll be happy to explain to you why it's either not true or not scientific. I've heard ALL of the talkiing points.

 

[digsbe]

I believe in intelligent design. I believe that there was a designer and that everything is part of creation. I don't believe in the theory of evolution nor do I believe everything happened by random chance apart from a designer or intelligent being. It's illogical to believe everything came from nothing for no reason.

 

[Hicup]

I believe in intelligent design. I believe that there was a designer and that everything is part of creation. I don't believe in the theory of evolution nor do I believe everything happened by random chance apart from a designer or intelligent being. It's illogical to believe everything came from nothing for no reason.

It's not illogical necessarily, I like to think of it more like it's so complex, that the answer lies at the quantum, most fundamental level. It's hard to contemplate nothingness, try.. It really is hard to think about. Just because we don't completely understand something is not always the best reason to abandon it. I DO see your point on intelleigent design, I share it to some degree. If anything, and unlike some, the sum conclusions developed by the theory are NOT wrapped in religion, especially not specific to christianity. They may embrace the idea, but it is not specific to any religion. They mostly like the idea because it does indeed hypothetically bridge the gap between God and the physical universe. Intelligent design does not purport there to be a specific God, nor does it give any idication that a belief in an intelligent design requires that you give a name to the designer, only that there is one.

My belief..?? Well, I don't discount the idea of intelligent design, but it frankly doesn't solve anything for me, or science thus far. The idea is purely philosophical, and entirely plausable; even if there is no evidence of it. The evidence, like that of the big bang, the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics, and so on, all take us back to the same spot, and the same question. What was the nothing that we came from?

The anwer? Is anyone's guess! The pursuit in proving the theory of intelligent design is equally challenging, and probably may ultimately be as rewarding. I say go for it, why not?


Tim-

 

[Deuce]

Intelligent design is a religious argument. It was founded by christians who wanted a more politically acceptable version of creationism.

There's no scientific basis for it.

Another thing to point out: A lot of people confuse evolution with abiogenesis. Evolution does not deal with how life started or the origin of the universe.

 

[digsbe]

Intelligent design is a religious argument. It was founded by christians who wanted a more politically acceptable version of creationism.

There's no scientific basis for it.

Another thing to point out: A lot of people confuse evolution with abiogenesis. Evolution does not deal with how life started or the origin of the universe.

There is no scientific proof for evolution, just speculation and theories. I believe science and the intricate functions of life were created by a creator. I also believe the intricate functions of life do not happen via evolution. The cellular functions are extremely complex and many are due to orderly cascades of genes and proteins being activated that lead to a product or response.

 

[maquiscat]

First off, Creationism is not the sole property of the Christians. Most religions believe in some form of Creationism. Granted that the Christians, Jew and Muslims, sharing a common origin, comprise the largest held belief in a specific given Creationism.

There is nothing in Intelligent Design or Evolution to prove the other one false. In fact they are highly compatible. Evolution has more physical evidence insofar as we can look at two sets of fossils and deduce that they are similar and thus may be related, but there is no conclusive proof. ID's only real evidence is that there is so much that interlocks and builds upon one another it's as easy to draw the conclusion that it's too complicated not to have been designed.

So here's the question. Is Eugenics merely mortal level, controlled Evolution?

 

[Temporal]

^ There is plenty of proof for evolution, you just want to ignore it. Being in denial is up to you, but don't pretend it's any other way.

I don't believe in intelligent design as far as humans go. If you take a step back and look at us, we are quite absurd. I mean, look at our bodies and the way we are... the things we do in our day to day. It makes little sense for an all infinite being to make something as preposterous as us, for all our curiosity and wonder.

Creationism I can respect as a religious belief. When they push it as science, I lose all respect for them.

 

[digsbe]

^ There is plenty of proof for evolution, you just want to ignore it. Being in denial is up to you, but don't pretend it's any other way.

I don't believe in intelligent design as far as humans go. If you take a step back and look at us, we are quite absurd. I mean, look at our bodies and the way we are... the things we do in our day to day. It makes little sense for an all infinite being to make something as preposterous as us, for all our curiosity and wonder.

Creationism I can respect as a religious belief. When they push it as science, I lose all respect for them.

There is no proof in evolution, just theory and speculation. They can't take a single gene from one organism, say it mutated at "x" position to create the new gene that is in a new organism. There is no physical proof that a species has evolved from another species. Just ideas and theories and nothing more.

Creationism is a scientific belief and it should be respected.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

First off, Creationism is not the sole property of the Christians. Most religions believe in some form of Creationism. Granted that the Christians, Jew and Muslims, sharing a common origin, comprise the largest held belief in a specific given Creationism.

There is nothing in Intelligent Design or Evolution to prove the other one false. In fact they are highly compatible. Evolution has more physical evidence insofar as we can look at two sets of fossils and deduce that they are similar and thus may be related, but there is no conclusive proof. ID's only real evidence is that there is so much that interlocks and builds upon one another it's as easy to draw the conclusion that it's too complicated not to have been designed.

So here's the question. Is Eugenics merely mortal level, controlled Evolution?

Actually I'd say it's more of a European christian thing. The mechanism by which the universe may or may have not been designed by God seemed a little less... well flowing bearded man in the sky to me when discussing it with muslim friends.

 

[Hicup]

Intelligent design is a religious argument. It was founded by christians who wanted a more politically acceptable version of creationism.

There's no scientific basis for it.

Another thing to point out: A lot of people confuse evolution with abiogenesis. Evolution does not deal with how life started or the origin of the universe.

But ultimately, it is only the "purpose" part you disagree with. Science doesn't pin point purpose, something is what it seems to be, and that's it. By ascribing to the notion that something is intelligent, and that the universe is an intelligent system denotes purpose, and that is something that makes some people uncomfortable. People like you perhaps, Deuce? Of course purpose is subjective, and only our limited understanding can put value on it, but it's not unscientific to suggest that something is what it is because it is directly related, and correlated to something else. Our understaning of things is by cause and effect. First cause need not be God, but it was something, and certainly not nothing. Our ability to ask these questions could be the road to enlightenment. Science is the same thing, it shows what is and what caused it, but it does not answer the questions of why something is what it is. Our brains naturally arrange incoming data answering the question of why. We do not simply say I must stop at a red light, we tell ourselves that we must stop because...

Why seems to be everywhere, including in our brains, and our minds. We are part of the universe, we are made up of the stuff of it, and if that stuff is asking why, and if we assume it is not an illusion, then the question is a valid one, it is an evolution of thought. Since all thought is quantum, and really just matter and energy, it too is made up of the stuff in the universe. By simply being able to ponder the questions gives validity to the idea of intelligent design. It may turn out that there is no deisgner, that we are all just combinations of matter and energy, and that intelligence, cognizance is really all a matter of chance? I dunno, but I do not fear exploring the concept of an intelligent designer. Is there observable evidence? Yes. We are the evidence, we are intelligent, were we designed with purpose to be this way? I dunnno, that's a leap, but it is an interesting question..

Like I said, the question is philosophical. The physics of understanding using only the mind. I don't disregard the power of that process, the mind is very powerful, and from what I can tell unlimited in its capacity.


Tim-

 

[Deuce]

There is no scientific proof for evolution, just speculation and theories. I believe science and the intricate functions of life were created by a creator. I also believe the intricate functions of life do not happen via evolution. The cellular functions are extremely complex and many are due to orderly cascades of genes and proteins being activated that lead to a product or response.

One might say there is no proof of anything really. However, what does exist is an enormous amount of scientific evidence that supports evolution.

What scientific evidence do you have to support your belief?

 

[Deuce]

But ultimately, it is only the "purpose" part you disagree with. Science doesn't pin point purpose, something is what it seems to be, and that's it. By ascribing to the notion that something is intelligent, and that the universe is an intelligent system denotes purpose, and that is something that makes some people uncomfortable. People like you perhaps, Deuce? Of course purpose is subjective, and only our limited understanding can put value on it, but it's not unscientific to suggest that something is what it is because it is directly related, and correlated to something else. Our understaning of things is by cause and effect. First cause need not be God, but it was something, and certainly not nothing. Our ability to ask these questions could be the road to enlightenment. Science is the same thing, it shows what is and what caused it, but it does not answer the questions of why something is what it is. Our brains naturally arrange incoming data answering the question of why. We do not simply say I must stop at a red light, we tell ourselves that we must stop because...

Why seems to be everywhere, including in our brains, and our minds. We are part of the universe, we are made up of the stuff of it, and if that stuff is asking why, and if we assume it is not an illusion, then the question is a valid one, it is an evolution of thought. Since all thought is quantum, and really just matter and energy, it too is made up of the stuff in the universe. By simply being able to ponder the questions gives validity to the idea of intelligent design. It may turn out that there is no deisgner, that we are all just combinations of matter and energy, and that intelligence, cognizance is really all a matter of chance? I dunno, but I do not fear exploring the concept of an intelligent designer. Is there observable evidence? Yes. We are the evidence, we are intelligent, were we designed with purpose to be this way? I dunnno, that's a leap, but it is an interesting question..

Like I said, the question is philosophical. The physics of understanding using only the mind. I don't disregard the power of that process, the mind is very powerful, and from what I can tell unlimited in its capacity.


Tim-

The question of intelligent design IS philisophical, like you say.

It is definitely not scientific. There's no evidence that the universe we see now is a result of some intelligent being. None at all. If you want to explore ID on a philisophical/religious level, be my guest. But lets not delude ourselves into believing it's science.

Our being intelligent is not evidence that intelligence designed us. See, this is why I am so annoyed by ID. It uses pseudoscientific terminology to convince people that it is real science.

 

[Temporal]

There is no proof in evolution, just theory and speculation. They can't take a single gene from one organism, say it mutated at "x" position to create the new gene that is in a new organism. There is no physical proof that a species has evolved from another species. Just ideas and theories and nothing more.

This is completely wrong. Not only have they transplanted genes, they have been doing it for decades in fruit flies. They reproduce so fast that changes in genetic adaptation are visibly proven.

Creationism is a scientific belief and it should be respected.

It can't be tested with scientific means, so it is relegated to religion and superstition.

When you figure out a way to put God into laboratory conditions and test his ability to create, let us know. Until then, you are operating on faith and nothing empirical.

 

[Hicup]

The question of intelligent design IS philisophical, like you say.

It is definitely not scientific. There's no evidence that the universe we see now is a result of some intelligent being. None at all. If you want to explore ID on a philisophical/religious level, be my guest. But lets not delude ourselves into believing it's science.

It's not scientific because we can't state an ultimate truth to the claim, but....

Humans are highly evolved creatures. We are made up of the stuff in the universe, we ARE the universe in that regard. Humans think in terms of purpose, that is ALL we think about. If we take it back, if we take all of it back to the stuff of the universe, we ask why.. We have purpose. if there is one thing you could say about humanity it is that we want to understand things. We want to know why; and if.... we want to know why, then it is the universe that wants to know why... We are an extension of the universe, Deuce, we cannot think in terms that put us outside of it.


Tim-

 

[TheBook]

This is completely wrong. Not only have they transplanted genes, they have been doing it for decades in fruit flies. They reproduce so fast that changes in genetic adaptation are visibly proven.



It can't be tested with scientific means, so it is relegated to religion and superstition.

When you figure out a way to put God into laboratory conditions and test his ability to create, let us know. Until then, you are operating on faith and nothing empirical.

This is true. Evolution can both be observed on the Micro scale (i.e. with bacteria and the like, how do you think such a thing as a super-flu came to be?) or the Macro scale (List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Creationism (or Intelligent Design, take your pick) is a form of allowing for scientific knowledge and understanding while believing in something that defies both. It is a coping mechanism, not a respected scientific theory.

Plus, it doesn't explain things like male nipples, redundant or useless organs, etc. If god created us to be perfect, even a rudimentary understanding of biology seems to indicate god must've been blind deaf and dumb if he thought humans were anywhere near efficient.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Wait, did we make intelligent design and evolution exclusive in this thread?
/facepalm
Who wus that? :ninja:

 

[Hicup]

This is true. Evolution can both be observed on the Micro scale (i.e. with bacteria and the like, how do you think such a thing as a super-flu came to be?) or the Macro scale (List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Creationism (or Intelligent Design, take your pick) is a form of allowing for scientific knowledge and understanding while believing in something that defies both. It is a coping mechanism, not a respected scientific theory.

Plus, it doesn't explain things like male nipples, redundant or useless organs, etc. If god created us to be perfect, even a rudimentary understanding of biology seems to indicate god must've been blind deaf and dumb if he thought humans were anywhere near efficient.

ID doesn't say that God created us to be perfect.. It doesn't say anything about a particular God; and God, if anything, is merely a place holder for what nothing is.

Like dark matter isn't dark, it's just a word to describe that which we do not know.



Tim-

 

[spud_meister]

If someone did create us, I don't think they were very intelligent.

 

[rathi]

Can anyone who believes in ID explain how think the genetics and heredity work? Do you deny that genetics mutations exist and are passed to new generations? How do handle obvious examples examples of natural selection like anti-biotic resistance? Why aren't there human fossils as old as dinosaur fossils if we all were put on earth at the same time?

 

[Hicup]

Can anyone who believes in ID explain how think the genetics and heredity work? Do you deny that genetics mutations exist and are passed to new generations? How do handle obvious examples examples of natural selection like anti-biotic resistance? Why aren't there human fossils as old as dinosaur fossils if we all were put on earth at the same time?

I already did explain it. What does evolution do to refute intelligent design?


Tim-

 

[danarhea]

There is no proof in evolution, just theory and speculation. They can't take a single gene from one organism, say it mutated at "x" position to create the new gene that is in a new organism. There is no physical proof that a species has evolved from another species. Just ideas and theories and nothing more.

Creationism is a scientific belief and it should be respected.

 

[maquiscat]

Except that you can't hand me the evolution "baseball" anymore than I can hand you the ID "baseball". You have the scrap of leather, maybe a part of the inside and then say "These change and come together to be a baseball", but you don't actually have the final product to prove your assertion, or actually more to the point, you have things that look like they might come from a baseball, and you have the baseball to compare it too, but there is nothing to actually prove that those scraps really came from a baseball and not something similar. ID looks at the baseball and says, "yeah there it is and that might have even come from those scraps, but that is so complicated that it most likely was designed with purpose and inteligence and not occuring by random nature"

 

[liblady]

There is no scientific proof for evolution, just speculation and theories. I believe science and the intricate functions of life were created by a creator. I also believe the intricate functions of life do not happen via evolution. The cellular functions are extremely complex and many are due to orderly cascades of genes and proteins being activated that lead to a product or response.

do you believe in the bible literally, dig?

 

[Andalublue]

It's not illogical necessarily, I like to think of it more like it's so complex, that the answer lies at the quantum, most fundamental level. It's hard to contemplate nothingness, try.

As a practitioner of Zen, I spend a lot of time doing that. You're right, it's not easy.