Insights Into Western Propaganda Vis A Vis Ukraine Part 1

[Irredentist]

The difference is that I’m not clutching my pearls at Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as though my own country hasn’t been doing this for most of my life.

Are you so jaded that you have lost your ability to have compassion for human suffering? If that's true, then all of the mistakes and crimes committed by the US against foreign countries and their people have taught you nothing at all.

 

[oneworld2]

While a direct military confrontation with Russia is likely not the best course of action at the present time, I'm inclined to be more forgiving of those who push for it.

So, you admit that escalation is" not the best course of action" but you " forgive people who are pushing for it"? And, if we follow your argument to its conclusion, you are are less forgiving/none forgiving of people who push for deeascalation and a ceasing of the carnage? Bearing in mind what you post next, in the below, it's hard to see how that sort of doublethink informs your opinions

It's very difficult to sit back and do nothing while we watch millions of people suffer just outside of arms reach.

Except our leaders having been doing nothing, on the contrary, they have been doing their best to set the stage for this horror show.

For the ordinary people of course it is a wretched watch to see death and destruction being shown 24/7 and that's why you have to be very careful that you are not duped into supporting actions that would see that escalate involving more people and taking more lives in numerous countries

 

[oneworld2]

You don't need a moral high ground to see that the invasion of the Ukraine is wrong and should be stopped. All you need is a functioning heart.

You are preaching to the already converted. I just reject, completely, the schizophrenic nature of most peoples attitudes.

You also say you have forgiveness for people who wish to escalate this war to a likely much wider much more vicious war but you want it to stop. Again that doublethink is going to be hugely confusing for you imo

 

[Napoleon]

Are you so jaded that you have lost your ability to have compassion for human suffering? If that's true, then all of the mistakes and crimes committed by the US against foreign countries and their people have taught you nothing at all.

War mongering is part of America’s DNA. It’s too young and too privileged by its geographic isolation to develop the kind of war fatigue and compassion you’re talking about. I don’t fall to pieces because there’s human suffering in the world. It’s just a fact of life. And I don’t expect anyone else to play by different rules than the self-proclaimed leader of the free world.

 

[Irredentist]

So, you admit that escalation is" not the best course of action" but you " forgive people who are pushing for it"? And, if we follow your argument to its conclusion, you are are less forgiving/none forgiving of people who push for deeascalation and a ceasing of the carnage?

I'm not sure why you would draw such a conclusion, it certainly doesn't logically follow from my statements. Of course I wish for a de-escalation. Myself and the rest of the world. But wishing for things doesn't make them happen. Meanwhile, people continue to die. We must decide which course of action will save the most lives and alleviate the most suffering, in both the short and the long term. It will be a gamble either way.

 

[Irredentist]

War mongering is part of America’s DNA. It’s too young and too privileged by its geographic isolation to develop the kind of war fatigue and compassion you’re talking about. I don’t fall to pieces because there’s human suffering in the world. It’s just a fact of life. And I don’t expect anyone else to play by different rules than the self-proclaimed leader of the free world.

So not only do you refuse to condemn military aggression by foreign powers, you won't even condemn it in your own country? That's pathetic. It's one thing to acknowledge that human suffering will always exist. It's quite another to actively contribute to it. Do not project your own lack of compassion on to others. There are still people who hope for a better world, even if you don't.

 

[oneworld2]

I'm not sure why you would draw such a conclusion, it certainly doesn't logically follow from my statements.

Then acknowledge that I put a question mark after it and explain the difference ?

Of course I wish for a de-escalation.

Then why support those that push for escalation?

Myself and the rest of the world. But wishing for things doesn't make them happen. Meanwhile, people continue to die. We must decide which course of action will save the most lives and alleviate the most suffering, in both the short and the long term. It will be a gamble either way.

People will continue to die if it is escalated on the lines these hawks are wanting it to be escalated. Infact probably much more and potential vastly more. Why would people support that is their aim is to stop the killings? It doesn't make much sense to me.

I get the frustration and the sense of helplessness of watching this horrific war but I feel that if people are duped by the hawks the situation is going to be a whole lot worse. Was Iraq better or worse after the US illegal invasion? Afganistan? I don't see how people can ignore the historical record and keep listening to these merchants of death

 

[Irredentist]

Then why support those that push for escalation?

I do not support them, I forgive them, for in their overzealousness, they do not see that their actions would cause more harm than good. You and I see this, but it is very easy during times of war to be blinded by emotion.

 

[oneworld2]

I do not support them, I forgive them, for in their overzealousness, they do not see that their actions would cause more harm than good. You and I see this, but it is very easy during times of war to be blinded by emotion.

Okay thx for ther clarification

But I don't actually agree that these peoples views are built on either compassion or a wish for peace. The guy I cited in the OP is a war monger ex military, in the heart of the NATO structuring hawk who wishes to dupe people that a no fly zone over Ukraine could be enforced from outside is somehow benign because you could " engage" ( read shoot down) Russian jets from afar. Like as though because of that there would be no Russian response

Beware these ridiculously easy to expose nut cases. If you have some forgiveness for them that's your choice but I have seldom seen anything that I can honestly says resembles genuine empathy for the victims. The victims are pawns to be sacrificed in the games of geopolitical advancement. You only have to look at how the NATO states, predominantly the US, has engaged in the willful provocation of Russia via needless NATO expansionism. If they genuinely cared for people they would have refused to have that as their policy

 

[Fledermaus]

Your posts are by far the worst type but because the insanity is raging through the forum your commentary, useless as it is to actual discussion, is earning you kudos from others with narrow minds and even narrower perspectives

More nonsense.

 

[Napoleon]

So not only do you refuse to condemn military aggression by foreign powers, you won't even condemn it in your own country? That's pathetic. It's one thing to acknowledge that human suffering will always exist. It's quite another to actively contribute to it. Do not project your own lack of compassion on to others. There are still people who hope for a better world, even if you don't.

I said Iraq and Afghanistan were a bad idea. I also have reasonable expectations that the rest of the world is not just going to sit there and watch America say one thing and do another. Nor do I indulge in the melodramatics as though no one has ever seen a sovereign country invaded before now. Nobody has any use for your hopes, thoughts, or prayers. They don’t change America’s DNA.

 

[snakestretcher]

The headline

Putin warned his military 'f*** up' in Ukraine will leave Russia defenceless against UK​

Putin warned military 'f*** up' will leave Russia defenceless

VLADIMIR PUTIN has been warned that a military "f*** up" in Ukraine will leave Russia defenceless against the UK.

www.express.co.uk

No citation is given for the headline. So it might be true it might not. But that's your first clue

Then we are treated to the hysterical notion that Russia, with its 6000 nukes is somehow , if things go wrong in Ukraine, " defenceless against the UK"........... No comment necessary

Then we learn that the " chemical weapons expert", Hamish De Bretton-Gordon, is an " ex army officer". Which is true but what they never told anyone was that he additionally commanded NATO's Rapid Reaction CBRN Battalion between 2005 and 2007.

So in short, he is a rabid hawk that was embedded into the NATO command structure that is calling for the an outside Ukrainian air space NATO enforced no fly zone where we could " engage Russian jets from well outside the Ukraine airspace. "

Like as though the Russians would just say " Hey, they fired from Polish airspace so we won't respond to the 10 Russian jets they just shot down"

This is the insane and jingoist tripe that is making up the MSM commentary.

Be mindful of this push for a NATO enforced no fly zone because that's what these crazies are pushing for and that's when a localozed disaster could easily engulf the entire region, and inded the world, into a catastrophic apocalyptic war. What seemed fringe and crazy last week might be considered with more justo next week

It's the Daily Express, a sensationalist conservative tabloid rag.

 

[watsup]

Your posts are by far the worst type but because the insanity is raging through the forum your commentary, useless as it is to actual discussion, is earning you kudos from others with narrow minds and even narrower perspectives

Ad hom.

 

[watsup]

The need to stay vigilant against these wreckless hawks remains no matter how many times we see common sense prevailing in the above

You do know that Biden and NATO have stated many times that they will not implement a no fly zone, right? Way to make a mountain out of the molehill of the comment of a single individual with no power to implement them.

 

[watsup]

Nobody is saying they do. What they are saying imo is that the moral high ground people are told exists in the West is at best a weak claim and at worst hopelessly obvious propaganda that is regurgited by people without the independence of mind not inclination to actual look into it

In this particular situation, the moral high ground definitely belongs to the West over the evil thug madman Putin.

 

[snakestretcher]

Nuclear retaliation? That triggers a nuclear response from the U.S.? He'd have to be insane, or stupid. Conventional retaliation is entirely expected and given what we've seen of Russia's military, we'd roll them.

You'd have to get your troops there first

So, you admit that escalation is" not the best course of action" but you " forgive people who are pushing for it"? And, if we follow your argument to its conclusion, you are are less forgiving/none forgiving of people who push for deeascalation and a ceasing of the carnage? Bearing in mind what you post next, in the below, it's hard to see how that sort of doublethink informs your opinions




Except our leaders having been doing nothing, on the contrary, they have been doing their best to set the stage for this horror show.

For the ordinary people of course it is a wretched watch to see death and destruction being shown 24/7 and that's why you have to be very careful that you are not duped into supporting actions that would see that escalate involving more people and taking more lives in numerous countries

In this particular situation, the moral high ground definitely belongs to the West over the evil thug madman Putin.

Nobody can claim moral superiority in times of war.

 

[watsup]

The headline

Putin warned his military 'f*** up' in Ukraine will leave Russia defenceless against UK​

Putin warned military 'f*** up' will leave Russia defenceless

VLADIMIR PUTIN has been warned that a military "f*** up" in Ukraine will leave Russia defenceless against the UK.

www.express.co.uk

No citation is given for the headline. So it might be true it might not. But that's your first clue

Then we are treated to the hysterical notion that Russia, with its 6000 nukes is somehow , if things go wrong in Ukraine, " defenceless against the UK"........... No comment necessary

Then we learn that the " chemical weapons expert", Hamish De Bretton-Gordon, is an " ex army officer". Which is true but what they never told anyone was that he additionally commanded NATO's Rapid Reaction CBRN Battalion between 2005 and 2007.

So in short, he is a rabid hawk that was embedded into the NATO command structure that is calling for the an outside Ukrainian air space NATO enforced no fly zone where we could " engage Russian jets from well outside the Ukraine airspace. "

Like as though the Russians would just say " Hey, they fired from Polish airspace so we won't respond to the 10 Russian jets they just shot down"

This is the insane and jingoist tripe that is making up the MSM commentary.

Be mindful of this push for a NATO enforced no fly zone because that's what these crazies are pushing for and that's when a localozed disaster could easily engulf the entire region, and inded the world, into a catastrophic apocalyptic war. What seemed fringe and crazy last week might be considered with more justo next week

How interesting that you set up a STRAWMAN of a “rabid hawk” pushing for a no fly zone when leaders of the West have repeatedly and clearly stated that it’s not on the table. Oh well, I suppose it gives you the chance to knock down this self-constructed strawman for a few days or so. I suppose that you need to keep busy.

 

[poweRob]

Your posts are by far the worst type but because the insanity is raging through the forum your commentary, useless as it is to actual discussion, is earning you kudos from others with narrow minds and even narrower perspectives

I think you said the same to me once. And here you are cheating on me already.

 

[oneworld2]

It's the Daily Express, a sensationalist conservative tabloid rag.

I agree and obviously a propaganda tool for the state when required

 

[oneworld2]

I think you said the same to me once. And here you are cheating on me already.

I am sorry you had to learn that you are not an exception

 

[oneworld2]

You do know that Biden and NATO have stated many times that they will not implement a no fly zone, right? Way to make a mountain out of the molehill of the comment of a single individual with no power to implement them.

They lie

" Not one inch to the east"

" Saddam Husseins Al Qaeda buddy boy"

" WMDs"

" Iraqi Anthrax in the postal service "

" I did not have relations with that woman"

" I didn't do a deal with Kruschev "

let's be vigilant on this, no uturns

 

[oneworld2]

In this particular situation, the moral high ground definitely belongs to the West over the evil thug madman Putin.

Really? That black and white eh

So , the Wests use of, or rather sickening misuse of, Ukrainians as proxies to bleed and threaten Russia/Russians is a moral high ground?

 

[Fledermaus]

Really? That black and white eh

So , the Wests use of, or rather sickening misuse of, Ukrainians as proxies to bleed and threaten Russia/Russians is a moral high ground?

The "proxy" ignorance.

 

[watsup]

They lie

" Not one inch to the east"

" Saddam Husseins Al Qaeda buddy boy"

" WMDs"

" Iraqi Anthrax in the postal service "

" I did not have relations with that woman"

" I didn't do a deal with Kruschev "

let's be vigilant on this, no uturns

Not relevant

 

[watsup]

Really? That black and white eh

So , the Wests use of, or rather sickening misuse of, Ukrainians as proxies to bleed and threaten Russia/Russians is a moral high ground?

Another lie. Same one as always.