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Individualism vs collectivism

Luckyone

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No. Just no. There is an english language that uses common definitions, try and use it.



We agreed to that, based on common values and ethics. It was an individual choice, not foisted upon us by some made up definition of the word "family". I chose to marry my wife, and with that I accepted the responsibilities. I choose to help people around me based on their needs and merits. I am not beholden to some view of forced perpetual charity by some back asswards definition of family.



Of course, I have to abide by the laws of the land. My entire point is that when you push that envelope too far with your righteous greed then you will find it counter productive, as every nation who has tried in the past has learned. Raise my taxes to 99%, do you think I will pay them? No. I will move my money into a safe haven, now you get nothing. If you try to pass a law to prevent that, then I will leave the country entirely, I have dual citizenship. This is all exactly what has happened in other nations. When you try to skin the sheep it just dies and leaves you worse off.



Absolutely not. I'm not sure how your relationships work, but we communicate. If my wife is doing something I find to be a particularly poor choice, or vice versa, we talk about it and come to common ground. That is not the same thing as demanding my taxes go up to provide more welfare for people making bad choices.



This entire analogy is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long while, so congrats on that. You can try and pass whatever law you want, you are right, and your view of that is incredibly stupid. You are cutting off your nose in spite of your face. Stick it to the wealthy, the people paying 80% of the taxes. Then they leave, they take their money, they take their tax revenue, and they leave. Best case? They change their behavior, restructure their earnings, invest elsewhere, and just damage the economy and tax receipts.

There is another thing you are missing, the constitution, and you have to respect that whether you like it or not. You see, that little piece of paper has some pretty firm and tight rules to it. Among them is a constitutional prohibition on taxing wealth. So, unless want to amend it, good luck with achieving your goals.



It's a republic, go back to middle school civics.

You think the constitution is the will of the majority? No. It is the founding document of the Republic that guarantees specific rights, restrictions, and provisions. It isn't a "flexible living document" like your ilk want it to be, it is designed to set a groundwork. It requires enormous effort to amend, for good and specific reason.
Here is the definition of a Republic

Republic: "A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives...

Power is held by the people and and their elected representatives is basically what I have been saying all along. The elected representatives have the power to vote as a group to change the laws. You (as an American living in a state) have elected your representatives and have agreed to live (and follow) the laws that they have passed. You are committed, as an American citizen, to adhere to what has been decided by the group (Congress).

Congress is our family and we as members of that family have given an oath to follow them, which in turn they are following the Constitution that our forefathers created.

There is nothing different to what I have been saying. This is a marriage and since you are an American, you have given an oath to follow the rules (with good and bad things attached). You can get a divorce if you want, by giving up your citizenship and going to live in another country. As long as you are an American, you have to follow what Congress (and the Constitution) tells you to do.

As far as "Pushing the envelope with your righteous greed", that applies more to what you are doing than what I am doing. Righteous greed is what the rich people are doing. They are saying "I have the right to go as far as I want no matter who gets hurt, as long as I follow the laws in place". That is righteous greed in definition because it is for the benefit of "one" person and not the benefit of all (the nation). How you can say that making it fair for all is "righteous greed" is beyond my ability to understand as there is no one that is trying to accomplish something for "themselves" but for all Americans. That is against the definition of the word "greed".

I do not understand how you cannot understand this as what I am saying is not opinion but definition of the facts.

As such, I am going to stop trying. I cannot talk to anyone that is "blind by choice"

blindbychoice.jpg
 

Luckyone

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No. Just no. There is an english language that uses common definitions, try and use it.



We agreed to that, based on common values and ethics. It was an individual choice, not foisted upon us by some made up definition of the word "family". I chose to marry my wife, and with that I accepted the responsibilities. I choose to help people around me based on their needs and merits. I am not beholden to some view of forced perpetual charity by some back asswards definition of family.



Of course, I have to abide by the laws of the land. My entire point is that when you push that envelope too far with your righteous greed then you will find it counter productive, as every nation who has tried in the past has learned. Raise my taxes to 99%, do you think I will pay them? No. I will move my money into a safe haven, now you get nothing. If you try to pass a law to prevent that, then I will leave the country entirely, I have dual citizenship. This is all exactly what has happened in other nations. When you try to skin the sheep it just dies and leaves you worse off.



Absolutely not. I'm not sure how your relationships work, but we communicate. If my wife is doing something I find to be a particularly poor choice, or vice versa, we talk about it and come to common ground. That is not the same thing as demanding my taxes go up to provide more welfare for people making bad choices.



This entire analogy is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long while, so congrats on that. You can try and pass whatever law you want, you are right, and your view of that is incredibly stupid. You are cutting off your nose in spite of your face. Stick it to the wealthy, the people paying 80% of the taxes. Then they leave, they take their money, they take their tax revenue, and they leave. Best case? They change their behavior, restructure their earnings, invest elsewhere, and just damage the economy and tax receipts.

There is another thing you are missing, the constitution, and you have to respect that whether you like it or not. You see, that little piece of paper has some pretty firm and tight rules to it. Among them is a constitutional prohibition on taxing wealth. So, unless want to amend it, good luck with achieving your goals.



It's a republic, go back to middle school civics.

You think the constitution is the will of the majority? No. It is the founding document of the Republic that guarantees specific rights, restrictions, and provisions. It isn't a "flexible living document" like your ilk want it to be, it is designed to set a groundwork. It requires enormous effort to amend, for good and specific reason.
Here is the definition of a Republic

Republic: "A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives...

Power is held by the people and and their elected representatives is basically what I have been saying all along. The elected representatives have the power to vote as a group to change the laws. You (as an American living in a state) have elected your representatives and have agreed to live (and follow) the laws that they have passed. You are committed, as an American citizen, to adhere to what has been decided by the group (Congress).

Congress is our family and we as members of that family have given an oath to follow them, which in turn they are following the Constitution that our forefathers created.

There is nothing different to what I have been saying. This is a marriage and since you are an American, you have given an oath to follow the rules (with good and bad things attached). You can get a divorce if you want, by giving up your citizenship and going to live in another country. As long as you are an American, you have to follow what Congress (and the Constitution) tells you to do.

As far as "Pushing the envelope with your righteous greed", that applies more to what you are doing than what I am doing. Righteous greed is what the rich people are doing. They are saying "I have the right to go as far as I want no matter who gets hurt, as long as I follow the laws in place". That is righteous greed in definition because it is for the benefit of "one" person and not the benefit of all (the nation). How you can say that making it fair for all is "righteous greed" is beyond my ability to understand as there is no one that is trying to accomplish something for "themselves" but for all Americans. That is against the definition of the word "greed".

I do not understand how you cannot understand this as what I am saying is not opinion but definition of the facts.

As such, I am going to stop trying. I cannot talk to anyone that is "blind by choice"

blindbychoice.jpg
 

bave

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Here is the definition of a Republic

Republic: "A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives...

Which is different than a democracy, again, return to elementary civics.

Congress is our family and we as members of that family have given an oath to follow them, which in turn they are following the Constitution that our forefathers created.

What world do you live in? I have never sworn and oath to Congress. Nor is that like a family either. Buy a dictionary and use it, this is ridiculous.

I do not understand how you cannot understand this as what I am saying is not opinion but definition of the facts.

Seriously, get medical help, you are just confused. Nothing like a lecture from someone who can't manage double posting.
 

Phys251

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So, "the working poor" in the EU can afford to pay taxes there, with a higher COL but they can't here? Instead just tax the rich some more? I don't care about Bezos or his situation, you don't craft a tax code because of one or two people. More importantly, why do I suspect that despite your vilification of Bezos you still buy from Amazon. Put your money where your mouth is and patronize another business you support ideologically.

Bave makes the classic mistake of blaming the individual instead of the system.

You act like I have never met poor people. Again, your definition of "working poor" isn't a scientific term. I will say it over and over. If you can't make $15/hr, then you screwed up, not the system, you.

And there it is. Blaming the poor for a situation created by no fault of their own.

It's a republic, go back to middle school civics.

We are a democratic republic. Right-wing extremists love to tell us that we're not, because they hate democracy and want a permanent right-wing authoritarian regime.

My question is why don't they move to one. There are plenty to choose from.
 

bave

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Bave makes the classic mistake of blaming the individual instead of the system.

Because it is never the individual, right?

And there it is. Blaming the poor for a situation created by no fault of their own.

Really? If you can't keep a job because you are unreliable, untrustworthy, have a criminal record, or fail a drug test then that is on you. Again, if you have a pulse you can get a job that is $13/hr right now almost anywhere, no skills, just show up and try. Want to stay poor? It's easy, get a neck tattoo, have a couple of kids with a couple of different partners, live in an area with no economic opportunity, and blame everyone but yourself.

We are a democratic republic. Right-wing extremists love to tell us that we're not, because they hate democracy and want a permanent right-wing authoritarian regime.

My question is why don't they move to one. There are plenty to choose from.

Like I said, a republic.

I could say the same to you. It is the left that is trying to shift away from the status quo on almost every front. More socialism. More welfare programs. More free federal goodies. All paid for by the same 2%. Ban guns. Illegals rights. Tranny rights. It's amazing.
 

Phys251

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Because it is never the individual, right?

Bave dodges the point, because on the collectivism-individualism scale, he tips all the way to the individualism extreme.

Really? If you can't keep a job because you are unreliable, untrustworthy, have a criminal record, or fail a drug test then that is on you. Again, if you have a pulse you can get a job that is $13/hr right now almost anywhere, no skills, just show up and try. Want to stay poor? It's easy, get a neck tattoo, have a couple of kids with a couple of different partners, live in an area with no economic opportunity, and blame everyone but yourself.

^ AGAIN blaming the victim. AGAIN choosing not to understand the slightest thing about life among the working poor.

I'll bet you are also misinformed as to why some companies are struggling to hire again, aren't you? ;)

Like I said, a republic.

My, my, my. You really don't believe that we have elections, do you? You really do believe that we are an authoritarian regime, don't you?

Your ilk sure would like to turn us into one, but you should know: If your ilk tries, we will NOT go quietly into that good night. :)
 

Luckyone

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Which is different than a democracy, again, return to elementary civics.



What world do you live in? I have never sworn and oath to Congress. Nor is that like a family either. Buy a dictionary and use it, this is ridiculous.



Seriously, get medical help, you are just confused. Nothing like a lecture from someone who can't manage double posting.
You are funny.

Yeah, I need medical help because I am not corrupt, selfish, or insane. These days, those definitely are the people that need medical help because anyone that cares about others, follows a code of honor to do the right thing, believes that decency and fairness still exists and should be the code we live by, has to be "out of his mind".

I am so happy for you that you have learned to live in this "new world" where little of that exists.

ratworld.jpg

I will stay in my world. I have to look in the mirror every day.
 

ataraxia

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One would think that the most progressive tax code in the world, combined with progressive and means tested entitlement programs, might do just that. The problem is those who want to collect(ivism) always want more from the people providing.

Odd thing to say since 80% of the GDP of this country is produced in blue states and "Democrat-run cities", and flows to the red states.
 

bave

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Bave dodges the point, because on the collectivism-individualism scale, he tips all the way to the individualism extreme.

Not really, I lean libertarian but accept the concept of things like safety net programs etc. I simply think the definition of when and how to apply that safety net has run completely amok, let alone how it is paid for.

^ AGAIN blaming the victim. AGAIN choosing not to understand the slightest thing about life among the working poor.

How many people do you employ? It's a reality, these people are not *victims*. If you make bad decisions you can't say you are a victim to yourself. The simple fact that you think someone who a criminal record is a victim really shows what you truly believe.

Your ilk sure would like to turn us into one, but you should know: If your ilk tries, we will NOT go quietly into that good night. :)

This country has always been a republic since its founding, I am not sure why that is confusing to you or why you think you are arguing with someone about it. No one is trying to change it either. I would wager I have done more to contribute to it than you ever have or will.



You are funny.

Yeah, I need medical help because I am not corrupt, selfish, or insane. These days, those definitely are the people that need medical help because anyone that cares about others, follows a code of honor to do the right thing, believes that decency and fairness still exists and should be the code we live by, has to be "out of his mind".

I am so happy for you that you have learned to live in this "new world" where little of that exists.

I will stay in my world. I have to look in the mirror every day.

You just seem confused more than anything else. You struggle with basic definitions and cognitive thought. What code of honor implies that I am to treat everyone like my family? When have you ever done it? Are you out there picking up dinner checks for the entire restaurant? Randomly paying tuition and medical bills for people? I call bullshit. You talk a big game with other people's money but meanwhile if someone threatened to reduce your SS check in the name of helping the nation manage finances, you would scream so loud your dentures would fly.

If you think this is a new world, you are delusional.
 

bave

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Odd thing to say since 80% of the GDP of this country is produced in blue states and "Democrat-run cities", and flows to the red states.

Ah, the ole red/blue state federal fund flows argument? Let's adjust that for defense spending and ss/medicare spending and watch how fast that parity comes in. You also act as though California is 100% blue, or Texas is 100% red. California is 40% republicans, Texas is ~45% democrats.
 

Phys251

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This country has always been a republic since its founding, I am not sure why that is confusing to you or why you think you are arguing with someone about it.

We are a democratic republic. Are you in denial about this, or not?

No one is trying to change it either. I would wager I have done more to contribute to it than you ever have or will.

:ROFLMAO:

You just seem confused more than anything else. You struggle with basic definitions and cognitive thought.

And there it is. The juvenile insult. The classic sign of someone who has nothing intelligent to say yet demands to keep running their mouth.
 

bave

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We are a democratic republic. Are you in denial about this, or not?

:ROFLMAO:

And there it is. The juvenile insult. The classic sign of someone who has nothing intelligent to say yet demands to keep running their mouth.

Brought to you by the clown who responds to requested facts and statistics with an emoji, each and every time.

I do however love watching leftists trying to redefine words.
 

Phys251

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Brought to you by the clown who responds to requested facts and statistics with an emoji, each and every time.

I do however love watching leftists trying to redefine words.

Thank you for making my point for me. (y)
 

Luckyone

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Not really, I lean libertarian but accept the concept of things like safety net programs etc. I simply think the definition of when and how to apply that safety net has run completely amok, let alone how it is paid for.



How many people do you employ? It's a reality, these people are not *victims*. If you make bad decisions you can't say you are a victim to yourself. The simple fact that you think someone who a criminal record is a victim really shows what you truly believe.



This country has always been a republic since its founding, I am not sure why that is confusing to you or why you think you are arguing with someone about it. No one is trying to change it either. I would wager I have done more to contribute to it than you ever have or will.





You just seem confused more than anything else. You struggle with basic definitions and cognitive thought. What code of honor implies that I am to treat everyone like my family? When have you ever done it? Are you out there picking up dinner checks for the entire restaurant? Randomly paying tuition and medical bills for people? I call bullshit. You talk a big game with other people's money but meanwhile if someone threatened to reduce your SS check in the name of helping the nation manage finances, you would scream so loud your dentures would fly.

If you think this is a new world, you are delusional.
Yeah, I am confused all right.

I never got any help from anyone while growing up and had to do it all by myself. I am 75 years old and have worked in 5 completely different industries and have been extremely successful in all of them. I have been an owner, a manager, a boss, a salesman in about 5 different companies and always either #1 or #2 in sales, and to finish it off, I was an analyst in the largest stock brokerage in the industry where I handled many employees and millions of dollars. I started with nothing and now I have enough for all my needs as well as those of my family and friends. In addition, I have a high IQ, am a learned individual, and respected by all who know me. To accomplish all of that is not easy.

Oh yeah, I am confused to the nth degree.

Have you accomplished anywhere near to what I have accomplished?
 

bave

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Yeah, I am confused all right.

I never got any help from anyone while growing up and had to do it all by myself. I am 75 years old and have worked in 5 completely different industries and have been extremely successful in all of them. I have been an owner, a manager, a boss, a salesman in about 5 different companies and always either #1 or #2 in sales, and to finish it off, I was an analyst in the largest stock brokerage in the industry where I handled many employees and millions of dollars. I started with nothing and now I have enough for all my needs as well as those of my family and friends. In addition, I have a high IQ, am a learned individual, and respected by all who know me. To accomplish all of that is not easy.

Oh yeah, I am confused to the nth degree.

Have you accomplished anywhere near to what I have accomplished?

You were a financial analyst and your analysis on tax policy is this weak? Again, I call BS.

More to the point, your family analogy has you continuously trying to claim that everyone in the nation is a family. I repeat the question, when was the last time you paid for random peoples meals, educations, medical bills, or bought everyone gifts? That's what family is, people you are willing to make significant sacrifices for. Somehow I imagine you are far more willing to make sacrifices on other people's behalf than your own.
 

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You were a financial analyst and your analysis on tax policy is this weak? Again, I call BS.

More to the point, your family analogy has you continuously trying to claim that everyone in the nation is a family. I repeat the question, when was the last time you paid for random peoples meals, educations, medical bills, or bought everyone gifts? That's what family is, people you are willing to make significant sacrifices for. Somehow I imagine you are far more willing to make sacrifices on other people's behalf than your own.
I pay taxes and quite a bit on the trading I do in the stock market as I am not a buy and hold investor, I am a trader. My taxes help pay for everything the goverment does (such as welfare). I also donate to several charities and am involved in the community when drives to help others occur.

This is what a family does and does it without complaining. Never in my life have I complained about paying taxes. I pay my share and do it willingly.

Tax policy being weak? I have no idea what you are talking about.

It seems that you are the one that is lost, given that you never seem to look outside of your own self. It is all me, me, me.
 

bave

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This is what a family does and does it without complaining. Never in my life have I complained about paying taxes. I pay my share and do it willingly.

I assume when your family gets together you are paying for dinner, right? I assume you paid for children's education, right? I assume you paid the bills at the family home, right?

Now tell me, Mr.EveryoneIsFamily, how many times have you done that for complete strangers? You keep using a family analogy but you can't even give an instance or two as when you treated everyone in the nation like family with your money while you expect me to do it with my money.

That's called a hypocrite kids.
 

Luckyone

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I assume when your family gets together you are paying for dinner, right? I assume you paid for children's education, right? I assume you paid the bills at the family home, right?

Now tell me, Mr.EveryoneIsFamily, how many times have you done that for complete strangers? You keep using a family analogy but you can't even give an instance or two as when you treated everyone in the nation like family with your money while you expect me to do it with my money.

That's called a hypocrite kids.
What are you trying to prove?

My whole contention from the very first post is that the rich are not paying their fair share. That the rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer. Previously I showed where in 1980 things were more evenly split among the rich and the poor and everyone was happy. The rich were paying 70% and now they are paying 37% and things are worse for the nation, though certainly better for the rich.

This is about paying taxes like the earners giving more to the family like they were doing in 1980 than what they are doing now, with that money being spent on opening more doors for the poor than what they are doing now.

How you got to ask the question about whether I buy dinner for a stranger is beyond me. Nonetheless, the answer is "yes, I do buy dinner for strangers" given than my taxes help pay for food stamps for others and in that respect, I am buying dinner for strangers.

It is impossible that we are physically in a position to meet and buy dinner for 330 million people but that is what government is all about. It is about all of us through them helping those 330 million people.
 

bave

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What are you trying to prove?

That the idea that you treat everyone in the nation as your family, you have been trying to beat that drum for pages and pages. It's insanity, no reasonable person would ever say that every fellow citizen is their family.

My whole contention from the very first post is that the rich are not paying their fair share. That the rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer. Previously I showed where in 1980 things were more evenly split among the rich and the poor and everyone was happy. The rich were paying 70% and now they are paying 37% and things are worse for the nation, though certainly better for the rich.

That is your contention, your opinion. I have shown federal data that directly contradicts this assertion. You claim you were a financial analyst and you don't know the difference between marginal and effective tax rates? The pre-Reagan era rates were largely a myth for the upper class courtesy of loopholes, that is true all the way back to the 50's. Anyone who is seriously talking about tax policy is going to look at historic effective tax rates by economic cohort. If you look at that data you can see that the effective federal tax rate for the rich has moved down slightly over the past 40 years, by about 2-4% depending on how you do the math. For the lower and middle class it has dropped vastly more. Moreover, I have shown that the US has the *most progressive tax code on the planet*, which is pretty much the definition of "paying their fair share". If that were not your definition, then we can look at the basic statistic that the top 10% of households pay ~80% of the federal income tax while receiving 50% of the income. You claimed to be a "very smart and successful financial analyst" but you can't grasp this? The rich are paying taxes at a rate of 160% relative to their income share. Please define how they are not paying their fair share if not using either of those two metrics.

This is about paying taxes like the earners giving more to the family like they were doing in 1980 than what they are doing now, with that money being spent on opening more doors for the poor than what they are doing now.

Ignoring the stupidity of the family analogy again, this is blatantly inaccurate. Entitlement programs and wealth transfers today are greater today than then. Effective tax rates, as noted above, ticked down slightly for the rich, while their share of the overall tax contribution has increased. Why? Because of a collapse in effective federal taxation of the lower and middle class. This leads back to.... the most progressive tax code on the planet.

How you got to ask the question about whether I buy dinner for a stranger is beyond me. Nonetheless, the answer is "yes, I do buy dinner for strangers" given than my taxes help pay for food stamps for others and in that respect, I am buying dinner for strangers.

It is impossible that we are physically in a position to meet and buy dinner for 330 million people but that is what government is all about. It is about all of us through them helping those 330 million people.

Ok, so you have never actually pulled your wallet out and provided for a stranger? How are they like family then? I don't tell me family that their gifts are the income taxes I paid. I don't tell my family that everything I have provided should instead have been covered by taxes. No one in their right mind would ever say that their legal obligation to pay income taxes is akin to supporting your family. It is beyond absurd.
 

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Not really. The profit motive and free market is what put kids in the mines.

Yes really!

Capitalism is an economic system, in which the means of production are privately owned, and a profit is made. No part of that requires putting kids in mines. People put the kids in mines. People are the cause, not capitalism. Capitalism was but a tool but the tool isn’t the cause, the people wielding the tool in a particular manner is the cause. As I said before, blaming capitalism makes as much sense as blaming Socialism for the famine in Ukraine.
 
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