Independant Scotland.. Will it ever happen? (1 Viewer)

[Maximus Zeebra]

With the upcoming parliament election in Scotland in May 2007, the Scottish National Party seem to be the clear frontrunner. If they get the majority alone or with another party they have in their program that they will put up a referenda about Scotlands independance from the United Kingdom.

Opinion polls have shown majorities of the people would vote for independance if they had this choice. One opinion poll show 51% in favor of independance and only 37% against.
They state they want to be an independant state and member of the European Union and possibly change to the Euro as currency..

What do you think about all this? Will it happen? What are the positive and negatives of this? And how would the Scots manage themself?

 

[Makhno]

I'm posative, and I think they can govern themselves. That is if they haven't run out of oil . . .

 

[Red_Dave]

With the upcoming parliament election in Scotland in May 2007, the Scottish National Party seem to be the clear frontrunner. If they get the majority alone or with another party they have in their program that they will put up a referenda about Scotlands independance from the United Kingdom.

Opinion polls have shown majorities of the people would vote for independance if they had this choice. One opinion poll show 51% in favor of independance and only 37% against.
They state they want to be an independant state and member of the European Union and possibly change to the Euro as currency..

What do you think about all this? Will it happen? What are the positive and negatives of this? And how would the Scots manage themself?

Possitives

The scottish people could take control of the oil in the north sea

Scotland could be run more efficiently if independant, the more small-scale something is the easyer it is to run.

If Scotland controlled its own borders then more imigratants could be let in . The UK as a whole has relatively strict imigration controls but scotland needs more imigrants for economic reasons and generally has more room.

Scottish independance could solve "The West Lothian Question" At the moment scottish MPs can vote on legislation that only effects england. These people arent held democratically accountable for there decisions because they do not effect there consituents.

Acorrding to a recent poll the majority of people in both scotland and england favor scottish independance.


Negatives:

Scotland could suffer from a lack of subsidies.

Scotland could be overlooked in international politics due to its being a small nation as opossed to being part of one block.

Defence could be an issue.

the issue of Scottish indepence could be devisive and/or spark off sectarian tensions.

I think scottish independance is likely to happen. Even if the SNP dont get an all out majority in the scottish parliament they can form a coalition with other pro-independance partys. This would provide a democratic mandate for independance thus putting the UK government under pressure to either give scotland independance or reach some kind of compromise option. Given the fact the next priminster is likely to be a scot he would look pretty bad if he didnt:mrgreen:

 

[mikhail]

I think it is in englands interest for scotland to be independent.

Public spending in scotland is £45 bn in return for 34bn revenue (not including north sea oil)

I Believe it will happen if not inevitable the majority of england and scotland are in favour according to polls

 

[GarzaUK]

What of Wales and Northern Ireland then??

 

[jujuman13]

If Wales want Independance then they should vote for it, they could then chatge England for the water they export to England, other than water, Wales is rich in Coal which will at some time need to be extracted.
Northern Ireland's place is reunification with the Eire Republic, however distateful that may be, it will in the end be inevitable if Eire is willing to accept them.

 

[jujuman13]

And of course we must not forget Cornwall's desire for independance, if that is what they want, then let them haveit.

 

[Makhno]

Wales has no chance. We (I say "we" because I live there . . . I'm not really into the whole nationalist thing) may be rich in coal, and the water, but it just isn't enough, and our size is a problem. We could only survive by either a) getting help from England or b) scrounge of the EU.

Now if we went for the EU option, this would give us even less say than we have now . . . we would be pushed around in other words. And if we went for option a we would probably end up being dictated to by England, only this time we would have no say in the matter.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I think it is in englands interest for scotland to be independent.

Public spending in scotland is £45 bn in return for 34bn revenue (not including north sea oil)

I Believe it will happen if not inevitable the majority of england and scotland are in favour according to polls

What about the oil? A lot of the north sea oil would belong to scotland..
Would they be rich, considering they are only 4 million or so people? How much oil do they have right to? Would there be a conflict about oil if Scotland gained their independance?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

What of Wales and Northern Ireland then??

I dont think there is a willingness in those two countries atm.. I read somewhere that only 10% of the Welch supported independance, BUT that around 50% supported more power to wales, but within the UK.

Dont know about Northern Ireland really, that would be another 3 divided story of staying, independance, and reunification.
Personally, I would love to see Ireland reunite. :rock

 

[GarzaUK]

I dont think there is a willingness in those two countries atm.. I read somewhere that only 10% of the Welch supported independance, BUT that around 50% supported more power to wales, but within the UK.

Dont know about Northern Ireland really, that would be another 3 divided story of staying, independance, and reunification.
Personally, I would love to see Ireland reunite. :rock

Why would you?? Unification of the island would slow the Celtic Tiger or even stop it in its tracks. There is no economic, military or political benefit in having a single entity Ireland except the romantism that seems to be surrounded around it.

Reunite? I'm eager to point out that the only time Ireland was "united" was when England and then Britain ruled it.

But in saying that a breakup of the UK would probably see an all Ireland country. The Irish Catholics who support being the UK will switch over to uniting with the Republic. Northern Ireland's economy while growing fast has only got started we couldn't maintain ourselves and keep our standards of life, same with Scotland and Wales.

Scottish nationalism is IMO idiotic. Their irrational hatred of the English (especially since Braveheart came out :roll: ) is sickening. They will really regret independence when that oil runs out and realise they only have mountains left.

English are the only country who would not lose out in the break up of the UK.

 

[Red_Dave]

I dont think there is a willingness in those two countries atm.. I read somewhere that only 10% of the Welch supported independance, BUT that around 50% supported more power to wales, but within the UK.

Dont know about Northern Ireland really, that would be another 3 divided story of staying, independance, and reunification.
Personally, I would love to see Ireland reunite. :rock

Whats a United Ireland supossed to achive other then overuleing what the majority of northern irelands people want?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Why would you?? Unification of the island would slow the Celtic Tiger or even stop it in its tracks. There is no economic, military or political benefit in having a single entity Ireland except the romantism that seems to be surrounded around it.

The celtic tiger is already slowing, the unification of Ireland could see northern ireland having enourmous economic growth as they would also have to accept Irelands tax laws, and in fact all laws.

Reunite? I'm eager to point out that the only time Ireland was "united" was when England and then Britain ruled it.

Indeed indeed, i will not start arguing with you about English and Irish history, because you know more about that. But i am well aware of it.

But in saying that a breakup of the UK would probably see an all Ireland country. The Irish Catholics who support being the UK will switch over to uniting with the Republic. Northern Ireland's economy while growing fast has only got started we couldn't maintain ourselves and keep our standards of life, same with Scotland and Wales.

I think if Northern Ireland left the UK and united with Ireland they would enjoy enourmous increase in living standards. They would probably grow to the GDP per capita of Ireland in 10-20 years, some of that on the cost of Irelands growth itself, but it would be a postive thing.

Scottish nationalism is IMO idiotic. Their irrational hatred of the English (especially since Braveheart came out :roll: ) is sickening. They will really regret independence when that oil runs out and realise they only have mountains left.

English are the only country who would not lose out in the break up of the UK.

Thats an idiotic thing to say considering English nationalism in the context of the European Union. Scotland has as much right to be nationalistic as England itself.

I dont think Scotland would loose out, they do have a rich country, rich on tradition, and a good educational system, they do infact have most of the good things England have, but they also have Scottish unique things.

Wales would loose out from independance, so would Northern Ireland if they choose to not unify with Ireland. So I would say conditionally England and Scotland would be the ones who would not loose out.

Wales would be the clear loosing part in all cases and would probably be better of integrating even further into the UK, maybe become a region of England.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Whats a United Ireland supossed to achive other then overuleing what the majority of northern irelands people want?

The economic benefits would be the most obvious, if they unified Northern Ireland would have the same laws as Ireland, including their tax laws, something I think would lead to Norther Ireland catching up with Ireland withing few decades economically..

And we all know the Ireland is about to surpass Norway now as the worlds richest country(looking away from Luxembourg).
In a wealth survey(savings and value of each man in the state) Ireland is the second richest country in the world after Japan.
Maybe it is time for Northern Ireland to jump on the celtic tiger and create the same wealth for themself.

 

[Volker]

If Scotland being independant means the UK loses military power, then I'm all for it. The UK proved to be an aggressive country and a security risk in the younger history.

On the other hand, we have smaller countries like Denmark or the Netherlands, who are aggressive, too.

If Scotland becomes like one of them, the value is smaller.

The value is still there, it's only smaller.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

If Scotland being independant means the UK loses military power, then I'm all for it. The UK proved to be an aggressive country and a security risk in the younger history.

On the other hand, we have smaller countries like Denmark or the Netherlands, who are aggressive, too.

If Scotland becomes like one of them, the value is smaller.

The value is still there, it's only smaller.

How are the UK's millitary actions a security risk? Last I checked there was an Al-Queda plot to bomb trains in Germany, and your nation isn't involved in Iraq. We are all on that list, because we are all Kaffir. The war in Iraq mearly changed the priorites of Al-Queda, put it simply the US and Britain are on the top of the list, but the threat of terrorism against France of Germany is very real.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

As someone who was born in Scotland I would like to say my piece.

The Scottish National Party, are in reality a highly conservative leftist group. In there older history they were anti-Irish immigration, due to their percieved threat of Catholism. In addition the Scottish National Party, think that Scotland will become so much wealthier if they get the oil revenues. Wrong! Scotland is poor because it has a small population that is centralised around a small urban belt, while the rest of the country is relatively uninhabited. This means that currently the Scottish, and English tax payer has to pay for roads, rail, and hospital services in rural areas, that will never cover the costs of the services through tax.

Most Scots, have an inferiority complex. They are so short sighted, they don't realise that the act of the union was in affect a free trade deal. Scotland, and in particular Glasgow benefitted from the Britain's naval dominance by becoming (at one time) the ship building capital of the world. Currently many Scots work in England, have families in Englan. My cousins that live in Knutsford are a testiment to that. Like it or lump it Scots, English, Irish and Welsh have been travelling, working and moving back and forth to the various home countries for houndreds of years. So in reality British really is an accurate description.

Nationalism is the biggest w*#k ever. Nationalism has never guarenteed economic prosperity, and if Scotland votes for independence it will show you just how backward thinking my fellow Scots are.

:2ukflag: Rule Britania, Britania rules the waves! We Britons will never, never, never, never be slaves.:2ukflag:

 

[Volker]

How are the UK's millitary actions a security risk? Last I checked there was an Al-Queda plot to bomb trains in Germany, and your nation isn't involved in Iraq. We are all on that list, because we are all Kaffir. The war in Iraq mearly changed the priorites of Al-Queda, put it simply the US and Britain are on the top of the list, but the threat of terrorism against France of Germany is very real.

Actually, the reasons for this plot are kinda unclear to me. It was first in the press, these guys had Hizb ut-Tahrir connections, but this has never been confirmed by police officials, maybe there are only Hizb ut-Tahrir people living there in the area one of these guys came from. At police they said it was to retaliate for the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq, which would point to these guys were at leat Al-Qaeda sympathizers. My theory is, they have been radicalized partly by radical web sites or chat rooms. Obviously they met in internet. I doubt, there was an organization behind their plot.

The UK is a security risk because of her aggressive foreign policy.

 

[Red_Dave]

As someone who was born in Scotland I would like to say my piece.

The Scottish National Party, are in reality a highly conservative leftist group. In there older history they were anti-Irish immigration, due to their percieved threat of Catholism. In addition the Scottish National Party, think that Scotland will become so much wealthier if they get the oil revenues. Wrong! Scotland is poor because it has a small population that is centralised around a small urban belt, while the rest of the country is relatively uninhabited. This means that currently the Scottish, and English tax payer has to pay for roads, rail, and hospital services in rural areas, that will never cover the costs of the services through tax.

Most Scots, have an inferiority complex. They are so short sighted, they don't realise that the act of the union was in affect a free trade deal. Scotland, and in particular Glasgow benefitted from the Britain's naval dominance by becoming (at one time) the ship building capital of the world. Currently many Scots work in England, have families in Englan. My cousins that live in Knutsford are a testiment to that. Like it or lump it Scots, English, Irish and Welsh have been travelling, working and moving back and forth to the various home countries for houndreds of years. So in reality British really is an accurate description.

Nationalism is the biggest w*#k ever. Nationalism has never guarenteed economic prosperity, and if Scotland votes for independence it will show you just how backward thinking my fellow Scots are.

:2ukflag: Rule Britania, Britania rules the waves! We Britons will never, never, never, never be slaves.:2ukflag:

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say scotlands economy struggles due to its small population. The best way to solve this is to give scotland control of its own borders and imigration policy. This will mean scotland gets the extra workers it needs , those from developing countrys can get a better life, and pressure is taken off the rest of the uk. Everyone wins.

 

[Volker]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say scotlands economy struggles due to its small population. The best way to solve this is to give scotland control of its own borders and imigration policy. This will mean scotland gets the extra workers it needs , those from developing countrys can get a better life, and pressure is taken off the rest of the uk. Everyone wins.

Let's look at the region. Scotland has a density of 64/km², Sweden has 20/km², Finland 16/km², Norway 14/km² and Iceland 3/km². As far as I know, Sweden, Finland, Norway and Iceland are doing fine being independent and their roads are rather good.

 

[GarzaUK]

The celtic tiger is already slowing, the unification of Ireland could see northern ireland having enourmous economic growth as they would also have to accept Irelands tax laws, and in fact all laws.

I accept that our two economies will be tied, it is impossible that they won't be. We can htich a ride on the Celtic tiger, but that doesn't mean we have to be united to do so. Northern Ireland will adopt some tax laws like the lowering of corporation tax to compete with the south.

I think if Northern Ireland left the UK and united with Ireland they would enjoy enourmous increase in living standards. They would probably grow to the GDP per capita of Ireland in 10-20 years, some of that on the cost of Irelands growth itself, but it would be a postive thing.

The Republic doesn't even have free healthcare. The Northern Irish education system is better than the Republic, Scotland, England or Wales for that matter. We are also one of the leading countries in Europe for treating cancer. With the UK we get so many benefits that our southern neighbours don't. Outside of Dublin, the Republic's living standards have alot to be desired.
Northern Ireland has just got up on its feet after 30 years of war and now we are starting to jog.
Also 5 Euros (£3.50) for a pint of beer!!! No bloody way.

Thats an idiotic thing to say considering English nationalism in the context of the European Union. Scotland has as much right to be nationalistic as England itself.

I dont think Scotland would loose out, they do have a rich country, rich on tradition, and a good educational system, they do infact have most of the good things England have, but they also have Scottish unique things.

Fair enough some English still have alot dislike over anyone who they had a war with, which is alot. I hate nationalism to be honest, its causes so much problems.

Scotland has always been a poor country in history. They had coal, it ran out. They have oil, it will run out. Fair enough they are rich in culture, but rich culture does not pay for schools or infrastructure. The only reason they have the standards of life and education now, is because of English taxpayers. That is why I hate that anti-English sentiment that Scottish people have. It's BS.

Wales would loose out from independance, so would Northern Ireland if they choose to not unify with Ireland. So I would say conditionally England and Scotland would be the ones who would not loose out.

Scotland would definitely loose out. England wouldn't but I would hope that they have resonsiblity of past Empire and help the countries they conquered in the first place.

Wales would be the clear loosing part in all cases and would probably be better of integrating even further into the UK, maybe become a region of England.

HA HA HA. Tell that to the Welsh. lol lol

 

[GarzaUK]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say scotlands economy struggles due to its small population. The best way to solve this is to give scotland control of its own borders and imigration policy. This will mean scotland gets the extra workers it needs , those from developing countrys can get a better life, and pressure is taken off the rest of the uk. Everyone wins.

What makes you think that the Scottish would accept immigrants more than the English??

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say scotlands economy struggles due to its small population. The best way to solve this is to give scotland control of its own borders and imigration policy. This will mean scotland gets the extra workers it needs , those from developing countrys can get a better life, and pressure is taken off the rest of the uk. Everyone wins.

Ireland have a low population and no oil, they seem to be doing fine.. :2wave:

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Let's look at the region. Scotland has a density of 64/km², Sweden has 20/km², Finland 16/km², Norway 14/km² and Iceland 3/km². As far as I know, Sweden, Finland, Norway and Iceland are doing fine being independent and their roads are rather good.

Hah, the roads of Norway are the worst in Europe btw. Thw whole infrastructure is an old mess and far below the standards of even the UK.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I accept that our two economies will be tied, it is impossible that they won't be. We can htich a ride on the Celtic tiger, but that doesn't mean we have to be united to do so. Northern Ireland will adopt some tax laws like the lowering of corporation tax to compete with the south.

As far as I understand you would have to change your laws in line with the Irish..?1?

The Republic doesn't even have free healthcare. The Northern Irish education system is better than the Republic, Scotland, England or Wales for that matter. We are also one of the leading countries in Europe for treating cancer. With the UK we get so many benefits that our southern neighbours don't. Outside of Dublin, the Republic's living standards have alot to be desired.
Northern Ireland has just got up on its feet after 30 years of war and now we are starting to jog.
Also 5 Euros (£3.50) for a pint of beer!!! No bloody way.

They dont have free healthcare but they have very low taxes.. Especially corporate taxes.

Anyways if I was from Northern Ireland, I am sure I would want independance all together and create a paralell to the celtic tiger. I am sure the NI people could also do great by themself, why do you need 2 unions? Leave the UK stay in the EU and they will still give you free stuff, great infrastructure.

Fair enough some English still have alot dislike over anyone who they had a war with, which is alot. I hate nationalism to be honest, its causes so much problems.

Definetely.

Scotland has always been a poor country in history. They had coal, it ran out. They have oil, it will run out. Fair enough they are rich in culture, but rich culture does not pay for schools or infrastructure. The only reason they have the standards of life and education now, is because of English taxpayers. That is why I hate that anti-English sentiment that Scottish people have. It's BS.

Scots have a great history, they invented golf!!!!!!!!!!

Scotland would definitely loose out. England wouldn't but I would hope that they have resonsiblity of past Empire and help the countries they conquered in the first place.

Well the oil will run out in Norway too, but Scotland could surely make it alone as well..

HA HA HA. Tell that to the Welsh. lol lol

hehe, yeah.. lol:monkey