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In major blow to organized labor, Supreme Court says public employee unions may not charge fees to n

One more time. I'm sure I've already said this:

The union dos not choose to be the exclusive representative. The workers choose the union to represent them, or not. It's a democratic choice made by the work force. If they vote the union out, then it's out.

It's like hiring a lawyer. The lawyer agrees to represent you, but, you're the one who chooses the lawyer. If you decide to fire him, he's fired and no longer represents you. Same with a union, only on a collective basis. If a majority of the workers fire the union, it's gone.

What I’m doing is calling out what’s basically a whiny bluff about them being victims of freeloaders. Unions want exclusive representation so badly that they don’t actually care about these so-called “freeloaders.” They continue to avidly seek exclusive representation privileges even in states that have been Right To Work for years. By doing this, they subject themselves to a duty to represent and work for freeloaders. They do it voluntarily and willingly. They want to. They insist on it. Even in Right To Work states.

The fact that workers can vote for a union doesn’t change the fact that nothing prohibits a union from negotiating members-only contract terms instead of seeking the exclusive representative designation. They can technically do that. They just don’t want to, freeloaders notwithstanding.

You should read the majority opinion of the Court. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1466_2b3j.pdf. Start on page 19 of 83.
 
What I’m doing is calling out what’s basically a whiny bluff about them being victims of freeloaders. Unions want exclusive representation so badly that they don’t actually care about these so-called “freeloaders.” They continue to avidly seek exclusive representation privileges even in states that have been Right To Work for years. By doing this, they subject themselves to a duty to represent and work for freeloaders. They do it voluntarily and willingly. They want to. They insist on it. Even in Right To Work states.

The fact that workers can vote for a union doesn’t change the fact that nothing prohibits a union from negotiating members-only contract terms instead of seeking the exclusive representative designation. They can technically do that. They just don’t want to, freeloaders notwithstanding.

You should read the majority opinion of the Court. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1466_2b3j.pdf. Start on page 19 of 83.

Oh, I'm quite sure the unions, at least those that still are around, will continue to represent workers even though they have to write off the freeloaders.

It's the paying members who should be terked that freeloaders get the same benefits without paying.
 
Oh, I'm quite sure the unions, at least those that still are around, will continue to represent workers even though they have to write off the freeloaders.

It's the paying members who should be terked that freeloaders get the same benefits without paying.

I guess we’ll see how well the subtle harassment and resentment attitude works to keep people feeling good about and bought in to unionism.
 
Unions have a place, this is just another war on organized labor.

Unions were a good idea that rapidly went bad. They started as a way for workers to have a voice and ended up as essentially a form of organized crime. Once they started using the power of the strike to get far more than was fair, they lost all my support. Now they are little more than fund-raisers for the DNC.
 
Who cares? Unlike the Republican party, we don't require every single member of our party, particularly not those from almost 100 years ago to agree to every single solitary piece of the party platform or face excommunication.

That would be the DNC. A more in-grained, "good old boys" network has rarely existed.
 
Now it's unions' move.

Specifically, what I mean by that is that it's safe to assume more will opt out of paying if they perceive no loss of services from doing so. If they can get everything like normal but just not pay, they won't pay. But unions can decide not to be exclusive representatives, and then at that point would have no duty to serve people that aren't paying them. This is unions' choice now. Will they cling to exclusive representation and complain about the duties they're imposing on themselves, or will they become members-only organizations?

I think that waht will happen is that the unions will start demanding separate pay/benefit scales for union vs non-union employees.
 
I think that waht will happen is that the unions will start demanding separate pay/benefit scales for union vs non-union employees.

That violates their duty of fair representation, which is a duty they have whenever they obtain designation as an exclusive representative.

They’d have to be willing to let go of exclusive representation and be members-only to ensure non members get less from them than members.
 
Wow its been a bad week for the left.

Let's be clear about one thing: Many union members tend to be conservative in their political outlook. It's the leadership that is out of touch with their rank and file membership. A perfect example is my son. He supports Trump, but is a member (and union steward for his local) of the Communications Workers of America. I'm a conservative Republican. When he got his job with AT&T, I advised him to join it, because we live in Mississippi, which is an "at will" employment state, with few protections for workers. (We have no labor department, for example.) Many of these guys voted in critical swing states for Trump and are one reason he's president.

"Hail Trump! Long live Donald Trump!" :allhail :lol:
 
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You are talking about some sort of annual review. Who decides the employee contract when that employee is first hired? Those are two very different things with vastly different mechanics and time elements.

The employee, by definition, has accepted the terms of their hire. The job market dictates the bottom of the proffered salary. After hire, it is up to the individual to further prove their value to the company. I have never had a problem with that system. All around me could make more or less than I, but it is my responsibility to do what is right for me. I can't imagine anything more fair than an individual with the right and responsibility for themselves. In an earlier post, I conceded there may be a time for the return of collective bargaining, but I don't see it short term.
Regards,
CP
 
If pro-union crowd was not engaging in constant double-speak with regard to unions and legal issues, I would not have so much of a problem with them.

What is double-speak? It is language that deliberately obscures, disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. One of the common ways this is done is by conflating "worker freedom" (to be in a union) with union freedom to either force people into unions or to collect money from them.

Example? This article: The Supreme Court’s Janus ruling is flawed. Canadian legal history shows why.

"Through the 1980s, the Canadian Supreme Court also construed constitutional rights in ways that restricted workers’ collective freedom."

What is "collective freedom?" That inherently doesn't even make sense. "Restricting workers' collective freedom" is a dishonest turn of phrase that basically says that disallowing unions from restricting individuals' freedoms... is an act of restricting individuals' freedoms.

"The 1976 Hudgens v. NLRB decision ruled that workers’ First Amendment freedom of speech took a back seat to employers’ property rights."

That is a shameful, inexcusable bastardization of Hudgens v. NLRB.

"Harris v. Quinn in 2014 have continued to restrict workers’ freedom to engage in collective action"

And that is also a shameful, inexcusable bastardization of Harris v. Quinn. These authors are hoping readers take their word for it and don't actually do any reading about those cases. This sort of bull**** actively makes people dumber, and the pro-union crowd seems intent on that.

"Creating a more equal bargaining relationship requires actively defending and enforcing workers’ freedom to act collectively."

Those cases weren't about "worker freedom to act collectively," they were about unions' freedom to infringe on others' rights against their objections, and where the lines against their coercive behaviors need to be drawn.

"And key to defending that freedom is to ensure that all who benefit from the collective good contribute to maintaining it."

The way these authors are conflating every union interest with "worker freedom" is pure doublespeak, i.e. misleading propaganda. I don't stand for bull**** like this.

And for an article with the audacity to claim the Supreme Court "got this wrong," this comment sure ignores the following argument in Alito's written opinion:
Respondents and some of their amici endorse this reasoning, contending that agency feesare needed to prevent nonmembers from enjoying the benefits of union representation without shouldering the costs. Brief for Union Respondent 34–36; Brief for State Respondents 41–45; see, e.g., Brief for International Brotherhood of Teamsters as Amicus Curiae 3–5.

Petitioner strenuously objects to this free-rider label. He argues that he is not a free rider on a bus headed for a destination that he wishes to reach but is more like a person shanghaied for an unwanted voyage.

Whichever description fits the majority of public employees who would not subsidize a union if given the option, avoiding free riders is not a compelling interest. As we have noted, “free-rider arguments . . . are generally insufficient to overcome First Amendment objections.” Knox, 567 U. S., at 311. To hold otherwise across the board would have startling consequences. Many private groups speak out with the objective of obtaining government action that will have the effect of benefiting nonmembers. May all those who are thought to benefit from such efforts be compelled to subsidize this speech?

Suppose that a particular group lobbies or speaks out on behalf of what it thinks are the needs of senior citizens or veterans or physicians, to take just a few examples. Could the government require that all seniors, veterans, or doctors pay for that service even if they object? It has never been thought that this is permissible. “[P]rivate speech often furthers the interests of non speakers,” but “that does not alone empower the state to compel the speech to be paid for.” Lehnert v. Ferris Faculty Assn., 500

U. S. 507, 556 (1991) (Scalia, J., concurring in judgment in part and dissenting in part). In simple terms, the First Amendment does not permit the government to compel a person to pay for another party’s speech just because the government thinks that the speech furthers the interests of the person who does not want to pay.

Whether you agree with the conclusion or not, this piece was a well crafted, intelligent reply. Good job!
Regards,
CP
 
I guess we’ll see how well the subtle harassment and resentment attitude works to keep people feeling good about and bought in to unionism.

Unions have put up with and survived a lot more than just subtle harassment from employers.
 
Unions have put up with and survived a lot more than just subtle harassment from employers.

That's not the harassment I was talking about. I'm talking about employees harassing employees as a way to convince them to surrender their money to unions. Does guilt/shame/harassment/insult really get people feeling good about signing over part of their paycheck?
 
That's not the harassment I was talking about. I'm talking about employees harassing employees as a way to convince them to surrender their money to unions. Does guilt/shame/harassment/insult really get people feeling good about signing over part of their paycheck?

I don't know. Probably does for some. For others, being a freeloader is just part of their personality.
 
That's not the harassment I was talking about. I'm talking about employees harassing employees as a way to convince them to surrender their money to unions. Does guilt/shame/harassment/insult really get people feeling good about signing over part of their paycheck?

some, yes. others are shameless. but then you already know that
 
I don't know. Probably does for some. For others, being a freeloader is just part of their personality.

some, yes. others are shameless. but then you already know that

It's an inherently psychopathic personality trait to force representation on someone that doesn't want it, depriving them of an individual choice or the right to deal directly with their own employer, and then chastise, harass and insult them for not paying for the thing they didn't want that was compelled on them.

Imagine I had a grocery delivery business and took the liberty of bringing groceries to your door and then sent you a bill in the mail, and you took me to court and said you didn't have to pay me because you never voluntarily agreed that I would deliver food to you, and so instead of me discontinuing my delivery of food to you, which I could do if I wanted, I simply kept delivering it to you for free, but rather than sending you a bill, I simply chastised and harassed and insulted you for being a freeloader and accepting free food.

Unions don't have to be exclusive representatives. They choose to be and they want to be. It's their choice to do that. So making that choice and then using it to insult people is really sick in the head. It deserves nothing but ridicule, which I will happily provide at all times that I see a mental infant in a adult's body hurling playground insults at forced-riders.
 
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It's an inherently psychopathic personality trait to force representation on someone that doesn't want it, depriving them of an individual choice or the right to deal directly with their own employer, and then chastise, harass and insult them for not paying for the thing they didn't want that was compelled on them.

Imagine I had a grocery delivery business and took the liberty of bringing groceries to your door and then sent you a bill in the mail, and you took me to court and said you didn't have to pay me because you never voluntarily agreed that I would deliver food to you, and so instead of me discontinuing my delivery of food to you, which I could do if I wanted, I simply kept delivering it to you for free, but rather than sending you a bill, I simply chastised and harassed and insulted you for being a freeloader and accepting free food.

Unions don't have to be exclusive representatives. They choose to be and they want to be. It's their choice to do that. So making that choice and then using it to insult people is really sick in the head. It deserves nothing but ridicule, which I will happily provide at all times that I see a mental infant in a adult's body hurling playground insults at forced-riders.

The workers vote to have a union be their exclusive representative. It's a lot like people voting to have someone lead the country. Inevitably, there are citizens who didn't vote for that leader, maybe some who despise that leader, and yet, he is the leader of the entire country, including the dissenters. Those dissenters still have to pay taxes and support the government. Maybe, in fact almost certainly, that government does things that the individual disagrees with. Still, that individual has to pay taxes to support that with which they disagree.

No man is an island entire of itself.
 
The workers vote to have a union be their exclusive representative.

Unions set that vote up because they are avidly seeking the exclusive representation designation. Union organizers do an enormous amount of work organizing votes to create exclusively represented bargaining units. Unions want that designation, desperately. But that's the union's choice. That vote typically takes place once and then there is never another vote to re-certify as exclusive representatives, hence why less than 10% of union workers have ever participated in any such vote (they inherit their exclusive representation from a former era in which the vote took place).

If unions did not want to be exclusive representatives, they wouldn't be. Unions do want to be exclusive representatives, but that's their choice. This designation that they seek ends up compelling representation on people who did not ask for it and do not particularly want it. So attempting to shame these people for non-payment for something that was compelled on them is psychopathic.

It's a lot like people voting to have someone lead the country. Inevitably, there are citizens who didn't vote for that leader, maybe some who despise that leader, and yet, he is the leader of the entire country, including the dissenters. Those dissenters still have to pay taxes and support the government.
Maybe, in fact almost certainly, that government does things that the individual disagrees with. Still, that individual has to pay taxes to support that with which they disagree.

No man is an island entire of itself.

Unions are not democratic governmental entities. Only a democratic governmental entity should have these governmental characteristics. For example, governments can tax. That is a compulsory payment to itself that it can simply assign to people. Only governments should be able to do that. Not private non-governmental entities.

If a corporation were engaging in these types of things, like compelling people to pay the corporation, and patting them on the head and reassuring them they benefit from the corporation's business and lobbying, it would be illegal, because it would violate our antitrust laws. Non-governmental entities are not supposed to function in the manner that governments do, where representation and payment are compulsory on dissenters.
 
Unions set that vote up because they are avidly seeking the exclusive representation designation. Union organizers do an enormous amount of work organizing votes to create exclusively represented bargaining units. Unions want that designation, desperately. But that's the union's choice. That vote typically takes place once and then there is never another vote to re-certify as exclusive representatives, hence why less than 10% of union workers have ever participated in any such vote (they inherit their exclusive representation from a former era in which the vote took place).

If unions did not want to be exclusive representatives, they wouldn't be. Unions do want to be exclusive representatives, but that's their choice. This designation that they seek ends up compelling representation on people who did not ask for it and do not particularly want it. So attempting to shame these people for non-payment for something that was compelled on them is psychopathic.



Unions are not democratic governmental entities. Only a democratic governmental entity should have these governmental characteristics. For example, governments can tax. That is a compulsory payment to itself that it can simply assign to people. Only governments should be able to do that. Not private non-governmental entities.

If a corporation were engaging in these types of things, like compelling people to pay the corporation, and patting them on the head and reassuring them they benefit from the corporation's business and lobbying, it would be illegal, because it would violate our antitrust laws. Non-governmental entities are not supposed to function in the manner that governments do, where representation and payment are compulsory on dissenters.

Unions are chosen by a direct vote of the people involved. What could be more democratic than that?
 
Unions are chosen by a direct vote of the people involved. What could be more democratic than that?

Routine re-certification elections, for one thing. But you're side-stepping the point about how sick it is to harass and insult people for not paying for something they were given no choice to accept or not.

I'm not arguing that unions lack any democratic aspects or features. What I'm saying is that non-governmental entities are generally not supposed to have governmental-like powers, whereby representation and payment can be compelled on people.
 
Routine re-certification elections, for one thing. But you're side-stepping the point about how sick it is to harass and insult people for not paying for something they were given no choice to accept or not.

I'm not arguing that unions lack any democratic aspects or features. What I'm saying is that non-governmental entities are generally not supposed to have governmental-like powers, whereby representation and payment can be compelled on people.

OK, I get that. Well, now the people who don't want to support the union don't have to. The union still benefits them, but they don't have to pay. I can also see where the paying members might not like people who choose not to pay.
 
OK, I get that. Well, now the people who don't want to support the union don't have to. The union still benefits them, but they don't have to pay. I can also see where the paying members might not like people who choose not to pay.

People believe what their union leaders tell them, and what their union leaders tell them are nothing but misleading and rhetoric and lies. Union leaders have been fomenting this agitating, hostile rhetoric toward "freeloaders" or "scabs" for generations upon generations.

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This stuff is embarrassingly shameful in light of the fact that unions voluntarily take it upon themselves to be required to provide services to non-members and those who don't pay. They insist, and then turn around and chastise and harass.

Because of union leaders fomenting this adolescent, hostile attitude based on misinformation, union members therefore believe, very very widely, that unions are powerless against the requirement to serve non-members equally. This is a lie that union leaders perpetuate constantly.
 
People believe what their union leaders tell them, and what their union leaders tell them are nothing but misleading and rhetoric and lies. Union leaders have been fomenting this agitating, hostile rhetoric toward "freeloaders" or "scabs" for generations upon generations.

20150617-UW_Scabs-3.jpg


34fcd3657a31f8b30523c6944dea0fab.jpg


8517014810_739c2abf69_b.jpg


free%2Brider%2527s%2Bcard.jpg


This stuff is embarrassingly shameful in light of the fact that unions voluntarily take it upon themselves to be required to provide services to non-members and those who don't pay. They insist, and then turn around and chastise and harass.

Because of union leaders fomenting this adolescent, hostile attitude based on misinformation, union members therefore believe, very very widely, that unions are powerless against the requirement to serve non-members equally. This is a lie that union leaders perpetuate constantly.

Nothing misleading about any of those ads.
 
Easy to see that soon more and more government workers will be privatized so that they can unionize. Will stick it to those who want government to be smaller while protecting the union rolls.

Sinister...
 
The employee, by definition, has accepted the terms of their hire. The job market dictates the bottom of the proffered salary. After hire, it is up to the individual to further prove their value to the company. I have never had a problem with that system. All around me could make more or less than I, but it is my responsibility to do what is right for me. I can't imagine anything more fair than an individual with the right and responsibility for themselves. In an earlier post, I conceded there may be a time for the return of collective bargaining, but I don't see it short term.
Regards,
CP


And in a company with thousands of employees just how do the mechanics of that work beyond the theory? Does each employee negotiate their own contract and it ends up like 150 people on an airplane where half of them each paid a different fare? And does each have their own separate benefit package and retirement conditions? What about working conditions?
 
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