In Honor of the Syrian Rebels.....[W:90]

[ecofarm]

How could they do that with only 15-25% of some Rebels. :lamo

Given UN support of the moderates, they can't. That's my point.

 

[ttwtt78640]

First a false-equivalence and now strawman/goal-shifting? That's very weak debate.

We're discussing Islamist extremists seizing control of the country. Islamist extremists are a problem everywhere in the world.

True, but what control do those governments have over the actions of Islamist extremists? I say basically none without relying on constant and massive outside assistance. Running a country cannot be simply "on paper", it must be in actual practice using local resources. The "good" Syrian rebel forces have ZERO chance of maintaining order should they be propped up and placed "in power" unless that is backed up by outside forces/resources.

 

[ecofarm]

The "good" Syrian rebel forces have ZERO chance of maintaining order should they be propped up and placed "in power" unless that is backed up by outside forces/resources.

The UN will not abandon the people after regime change. There is no reason to believe that such could occur. Additionally, internal resources will be used for development instead of buying bombs intended for civilians, sanctions will be removed and international foreign aid and development projects will pour in.

 

[MMC]

Given UN support of the moderates, they can't. That's my point.

To Bad the Moderates don't make up the Majority of Syrians. So its not much of a point.

 

[ecofarm]

To Bad the Moderates don't make up the Majority of Syrians. So its not much of a point.

Of course they do. Extremists are only 15-25%.

 

[MMC]

True, but what control do those governments have over the actions of Islamist extremists? I say basically none without relying on constant and massive outside assistance. Running a country cannot be simply "on paper", it must be in actual practice using local resources. The "good" Syrian rebel forces have ZERO chance of maintaining order should they be propped up and placed "in power" unless that is backed up by outside forces/resources.

Heya Ttwtt.....from Post 12. There is only really One group that is exercising any control in the Rebels/ Terrorists.

Islamist Rebels Create Dilemma on Syria Policy

In Syria’s largest city, Aleppo, rebels aligned with Al Qaeda control the power plant, run the bakeries and head a court that applies Islamic law. Elsewhere, they have seized government oil fields, put employees back to work and now profit from the crude they produce.

Across Syria, rebel-held areas are dotted with Islamic courts staffed by lawyers and clerics, and by fighting brigades led by extremists. Even the Supreme Military Council, the umbrella rebel organization whose formation the West had hoped would sideline radical groups, is stocked with commanders who want to infuse Islamic law into a future Syrian government.

Nowhere in rebel-controlled Syria is there a secular fighting force to speak of.

More than two years of violence have radicalized the armed opposition fighting the government of President Bashar al-Assad, leaving few groups that both share the political vision of the United States and have the military might to push it forward.

Among the most extreme groups is the notorious Al Nusra Front, the Qaeda-aligned force declared a terrorist organization by the United States, but other groups share aspects of its Islamist ideology in varying degrees.

The Islamist character of the opposition reflects the main constituency of the rebellion, which has been led since its start by Syria’s Sunni Muslim majority, mostly in conservative, marginalized areas. The descent into brutal civil war has hardened sectarian differences, and the failure of more mainstream rebel groups to secure regular arms supplies has allowed Islamists to fill the void and win supporters.

The religious agenda of the combatants sets them apart from many civilian activists, protesters and aid workers who had hoped the uprising would create a civil, democratic Syria.

When the armed rebellion began, defectors from the government’s staunchly secular army formed the vanguard. The rebel movement has since grown to include fighters with a wide range of views, including Qaeda-aligned jihadis seeking to establish an Islamic emirate, political Islamists inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood and others who want an Islamic-influenced legal code like that found in many Arab states.

Another prominent group, Ahrar al-Sham, shares much of Nusra’s extremist ideology but is made up mostly of Syrians.....snip~

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/w...eate-dilemma-for-us.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

 

[ttwtt78640]

The UN will not abandon the people after regime change. There is no reason to believe that such could occur. Additionally, internal resources will be used for development instead of buying bombs intended for civilians, sanctions will be removed and international foreign aid and development projects will pour in.

Is Obama Confused?

Goal not ‘regime change,’ White House insists as reports put Syria strike just ‘days away’ | National Post

 

[ecofarm]

Is Obama Confused?

Goal not ‘regime change,’ White House insists as reports put Syria strike just ‘days away’ | National Post

The goal is a democratic transition government. If the goal was regime change alone, the terrorists could conceivably be left to take power against an unfunded and social capital lacking populace.

 

[MMC]

Is Obama Confused?

Goal not ‘regime change,’ White House insists as reports put Syria strike just ‘days away’ | National Post

Here are those other Oppositions In the Rebels/Terrorists......since I already put up the FSA and SNC and their Groups. Do you think some of these Numbers gives us more of an insight as to what is really happening inside Syria?

Al-Nusra Front (ANF), an Al-Qaeda associate operating in Syria. It has been described as "the most aggressive and successful arm of the rebel force". This group has been designated as a terrorist organisation by the United Nations, the United States, Australia, and the United Kingdom. Abu Mohammad al-Golani, the current leader of ANF, has confirmed the ANF's allegiance to Al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri. By May 2013, a faction of ANF declared its loyalty to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

National Coordination Committee for the Forces of Democratic Change (NCC or NCB, for National Coordination Bureau): Syrian opposition bloc chaired by Hassan Abdel Azim consisting of about 13 mostly left-leaning political parties and independent political activists, including three Kurdish political parties, and youth activists, operating within Syria and abroad. The NCC gathers a large proportion of the secular political parties in the pre-revolutionary Syrian dissident movement, mainly leftists and Arab nationalists. Many of its leaders are veteran dissidents, some of them famous former prisoners of conscience. Many of the parties were splinter groups from the parties of the ruling National Progressive Front. It was the first major coalition formed during the revolution, in summer 2011. It was originally considered a chief rival of the SNC, and portrayed itself as Syria's "internal opposition" (in contrast to the exile-backed SNC), but it has lost influence as the conflict has become more militarized. While it has rejected military intervention and favoured dialogue with the regime, it took an increasingly hardline stance towards the regime since 2012 in favour of regime change.

National Democratic Rally: Banned opposition alliance formed in 1980 comprising five political parties of a secularist, pan-Arabist, Arab nationalist and socialist bent;

Democratic Arab Socialist Union, Syrian Democratic People's Party, Arab Revolutionary Workers Party, Movement of Arab Socialists, Democratic Socialist Arab Ba'ath Party.

In 2006, Communist Labour Party joined the coalition. The Rally originally signed the Damascus Declaration, but most members later split from the group. Among the Rally parties, only the SDPP is now active in the SNC, while most others have joined the NCC, a rival opposition alliance.

National Salvation Front in Syria: Founded in 2005 by former vice president Abdul Halim Khaddam who was exiled to Belgium, not a member of the SNC but supportive of its goals.

Syriac Union Party: A party representing the interests of Syriac Christians and affiliated with the Syriac Union Party in Lebanon (itself part of the anti-Assad March 14 Alliance). It has taken part in numerous opposition demonstrations, including storming the Syrian embassy in Stockholm in August 2012.

Syrian Islamic Front: Formed in Syria on 21 December 2012, the Front brings together 11 armed Islamist rebel groups including Ahrar al-Sham, with the aim of overthrowing the Syrian Government and establishing an Islamic state. Many of the Islamist groups are more radical than those that make up the Front to Liberate Syria.

Syria Martyrs' Brigade: an armed insurgent group fighting against the Syrian government in the Idlib province of Syria. It is a loose coalition of localized forces, mostly composed of armed Syrian civilians who have joined the uprising.

Syrian Islamic Liberation Front: Formed in Syria in September–October 2012, the Front brings together numerous armed Islamist Brigades active in the Syrian civil war, under the command of Suquor al-Sham commander Ahmed Abu Issa. The Front aims to establish a state with an Islamic reference.

Syrian National Democratic Council: formed in Paris on 13 November 2011 during the Syrian civil war by Rifaat al-Assad, uncle of Bashar al-Assad. Rifaat al-Assad has expressed wishes to replace Bashar al-Assad with the authoritarian state apparatus intact, and guarantee the safety of regime members, while also making vague allusions to a "transition". Rifaat has his own political organisation, the United National Democratic Rally.

Syrian Revolution General Commission: Syrian coalition of 40 Syrian opposition groups to unite their efforts during the Syrian civil war that was announced on 19 August 2011 in Istanbul.....snip~

Syrian opposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Al Nusra has 29 groups backing them up all to their lonesome selves.....then as you can see throw in some of theses others. With just the main two that's another 23. Throw in the 40 from the SRGC onto the others. That's over 90 as opposed to the FSA and SNC's 70. Which this doesn't even count those smaller groups.

Nor does it count the Turks and Kurds.

 

[Coin]

Google: John Kerry Syria

Well, there were lot of lies from John Kerry and Obama. I'm sure they are still on .....

I remember General Wesley Clark has said in numerous interviews that the neocons put Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Lebanon, and Iran in their sights before 9/11 happened. So none of this is about supporting democracy and overthrowing a dictator who is killing his own people.


However, the Syrian “rebels” are the foreign-backed Jihadist terrorists.
There are al-Qaeda elements active in Syria, although they weren't there at the beginning.
In rebel-held Aleppo, the BBC reported that a 14-year-old boy was executed in public by Islamists for insulting Islam.
Extremist groups have released videos over the past few months in which they kill locals in towns where they say people have violated Islamic law.
There are lot of videos on youtube showing pretty well if rebels are terrorists or not.

Assad said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Figaro that his fight is against terrorists.
"We are fighting terrorists. Eighty to 90% of those we are fighting belong to al-Qaeda. They are not interested in reform or in politics. The only way to deal with them is to annihilate them," he said.
It's quite ironic that the Assad government said that everyone opposed to them is a foreign-backed terrorist and over time, more foreign-backed terrorists have become involved.

Among the foreign fighters in Syria are groups such as Jabhat al-Nusra, which swears allegiance to al-Qaeda and is designated as a terrorist group by the United States. Also in Syria is the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and jihadists from Chechnya, Pakistan and other countries have answered the call of al-Qaeda to fight Assad.

Syrians are not fighting their government, and Assad is not killing his own people.


Find some videos here. No need for Kerry or Assad to prove the sources.
https://sites.google.com/site/kitkirja/syrian-rebels-are-terrorists

 

[gunner]

Only 15-25% of the rebels are Islamic extremists.

I see you didn't mention Iraq

Bombings kill at least 58 across Iraq

And I don't blame you...

Paul

 

[MMC]

Here are the Kurds that are in the Opposition.....

The Kurdish Supreme Committee is a governing body of Kurdish-held regions in Syria founded by the Kurdish Democratic Union Party and Kurdish National Council following cooperation agreement between the two sides, signed on 12 July, in Erbil under auspice of the Iraqi Kurdistan president Massoud Barzani. Its member board consist of equal number of PYD and KNC members.

Kurdish Democratic Union Party: Kurdish Syrian political party established in 2003 by Arab and Kurdish nationalists in northern Syria. The party is linked with the Kurdistan Workers' Party, which is listed as a terrorist organisation by Turkey, the United States, the European Union and NATO. The PYD does admit that the two parties have a close relationship, with the PKK not interfering with PYD management of Syrian Kurdish affairs. It is currently not officially registered as a political party in Syria because the Constitution of Syria before 2012 did not allow political parties to be formed without permission.

Kurdish National Council: The Kurdish National Council was founded in Erbil, Iraq on 26 October 2011, under the sponsorship of President Massoud Barzani, following the earlier creation of the SNC. The organisation was originally composed of 11 Syrian Kurdish parties, however by May 2012 this had grown to 15. The key difference between the KNC and the SNC is over their approach to the issue of decentralization, with the KNC pressing for Kurdish autonomy, whereas the SNC has rejected anything more than administrative decentralization. Kurdistan Democratic Party of Syria led by Dr. Abdel Hakim Bashar/ Nasreddin Ibrahim

Kurdish Democratic National Party in Syria led by Tahir Sfook
Kurdish Democratic Equality Party in Syria led by Aziz Dawe
Kurdish Democratic Progressive Party in Syria led by Hamid Darwish
Kurdish Democratic Unity Party in Syria led by Sheikh Ali

Kurdish Yekiti Party in Syria led by Ismail Hamo
Azadi Kurdish Party in Syria led by Mustafa Oso/ Mustafa Jumaa
Syrian Democratic Kurdish Party led by Sheikh Jamal
Kurdish Left Party in Syria led by Muhammad Musa
Yekiti Kurdistani led by Abdul Basit Hamo
Kurdish Democratic Party in Syria led by Abdul Rahman Aluji/ Yusuf Faisal
Kurdish Democratic Wifaq Party led by Nash’at Muhammad

Popular Protection Units: Paramilitary fighting against the Syrian government in Syrian Kurdistan. The group was founded by the Kurdish Democratic Union Party and Kurdish National Council and is responsible for maintaining order and protecting the lives of residents in Kurdish neighbourhoods.....snip~

Syrian opposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ecofarm]

Well, there were lot of lies from John Kerry and Obama. I'm sure they are still on .....

Rank conspiracy theory. "All evidence is fake".

 

[ecofarm]

I see you didn't mention Iraq

Bombings kill at least 58 across Iraq

And I don't blame you...

Paul

That does not compare to 500k Iraqis killed invading Iran, 250k Iraqis killed in genocide of the Kurds, 50k Iraqis killed in genocide of the Marsh Arabs and 400k children starved procuring funds for cronies and institutional rape?

Saddam killed 50k Iraqis per year during his 20 years. And that's only counting the big stuff.

Have some perspective.

 

[gunner]

That does not compare to 500k Iraqis killed invading Iran, 250k Iraqis killed in genocide of the Kurds, 50k Iraqis killed in genocide of the Marsh Arabs and 400k children starved procuring funds for cronies and institutional rape?

Saddam killed 50k Iraqis per year during his 20 years. And that's only counting the big stuff.

Have some perspective.

Perspective? If you had any, you would not be 'peppering unsubstantiated facts' out rather then concentrating on specifics.

 

[ecofarm]

Perspective? If you had any, you would not be 'peppering unsubstantiated facts' out rather then concentrating on specifics.

I've considerable perspective, I think we know my experience.

Knowledge + perspective = understanding

 

[Coin]

Rank conspiracy theory. "All evidence is fake".

I haven't seen any real evidence, nor official ones about Syria.

If we keep holding on what Kerry or Putin say, than none of us is in right direction.

If there would be a real evidence the US wouldn't fall back to Russian proposal. That's sure.

 

[reinoe]

First a false-equivalence and now strawman/goal-shifting? That's very weak debate.

We're discussing Islamist extremists seizing control of the country. Islamist extremists are a problem everywhere in the world.

Actually, no. Islamist extremists are a problem everywhere in the world where they are allowed to fester like an Open wound. India doesn't tolerate islamist extremists, the Phillipines don't tolerate Islamist extremists, Indonesia doesn't tolerate Islamist extremists.

But you do raise a good point: why does the religion of peace have so many extremists?

 

[gunner]

I've considerable perspective, I think we know my experience.

Knowledge + perspective = understanding

I know your experience, yes, but it does not follow that it makes you anything other than a neo-con, over issues such as this. For me, if there was a weaker case for intervention i'm sure I could not find it. I've long since moved from a position of 'hope for the best' type senario in any post conflict intervention. There really needs to be a credible alternative or we simply change one monster for another.

Paul

 

[ecofarm]

I know your experience, yes, but it does not follow that it makes you anything other than a neo-con, over issues such as this.

How do you define a neocon, are all hawks neocons?

 

[ecofarm]

Actually, no. Islamist extremists are a problem everywhere in the world where they are allowed to fester like an Open wound. India doesn't tolerate islamist extremists, the Phillipines don't tolerate Islamist extremists, Indonesia doesn't tolerate Islamist extremists.

We shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields...

List of terrorist incidents in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But you do raise a good point: why does the religion of peace have so many extremists?

There are crazies in every arbitrary population. They exist in about the same proportions everywhere and by whatever flag. People are people. Totalitarian governments are the problem.

 

[reinoe]

We shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields...

List of terrorist incidents in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are crazies in every arbitrary population. They exist in about the same proportions everywhere and by whatever flag. People are people. Totalitarian governments are the problem.

Tell me about the Christian or Jewish organizations trying to Overthrow Russia and Spain.

 

[Red_Dave]

Tell me about the Christian or Jewish organizations trying to Overthrow Russia and Spain.

Not since the 1930s any how

 

[MMC]

I've considerable perspective, I think we know my experience.

Knowledge + perspective = understanding

Not on Syria you don't! :roll: Although you do try to paint out only one Rosy side of the whole issue.

 

[MMC]

I haven't seen any real evidence, nor official ones about Syria.

If we keep holding on what Kerry or Putin say, than none of us is in right direction.

If there would be a real evidence the US wouldn't fall back to Russian proposal. That's sure.

You got that Right Coin.....going by what Kerry says out of his mouth can't be always taken as credible. Nor the Rebels.

U.N. investigators say most Syria rebels not seeking democracy


Most Syrian rebel fighters do not want democracy and the country's civil war is producing ever worse atrocities and increasing radicalization, independent U.N. investigators said on Tuesday.

Speaking to reporters in Paris, Brazilian expert Paulo Pinheiro said his team of investigators had documented horrific crimes on both sides, although the scale of those committed by President Bashar al-Assad's forces was greater.

"It was said the rebels were angels, but there is only a minority of fighters with a democratic history who believe in the Syrian mosaic and want a state for all," he said.

"The majority of rebels are very far from having democratic thoughts and have other aspirations."

The Islamist element of the Syrian conflict poses a quandary for Western powers and their Arab allies, which favor Assad's overthrow, but are alarmed at the growing power of militant Sunni Muslim fighters whose anti-Shi'ite ideology has fuelled sectarian tensions in the Middle East.

While Assad has repeatedly labeled opposition forces as "terrorists", Western powers have backed non-Islamist rebel fighters by providing aid and non-lethal assistance.

Pinheiro leads an independent team of some two dozen experts mandated by the United Nations that documents crimes committed during the conflict, in which at least 80,000 people have been killed.

Its next report is due out on June 4 and will be based on interviews since February conducted abroad with victims and witnesses, as they have not been allowed into Syria.

"The report is dreadful in terms of a combination of secularization, radicalization and an escalation in violations of human rights and laws of war," he said.

Both government forces and armed rebels are committing war crimes, including killings and torture, spreading terror among civilians in the more than two-year conflict.....snip~


U.N. investigators say most Syria rebels not seeking democracy | Reuters

The FSA and Idris stated that weapons wouldn't fall into the hands of AQ types and that any weapons they got would be returned. We were suppose to believe him. :roll: