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In God We Divide?

WMDLIAR

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Why are the words "In God We Trust" engraved over the backdrop of the Senate? Could this Constitutional violation be more blatant? And to think our Senator see this every session and do nothing?! Where are the ethics?
 

Korimyr the Rat

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This is a non-issue. As long as it is American law being enforced inside our courtrooms and not Judaic law, then the words "In God We Trust" on the outside are neither an establishment of religion nor a violation of our civil rights.

I don't favor my tax monies being used to build religious monuments, but I'm not so offended by them that I favor my tax money being used to destroy them, either.
 

Simon W. Moon

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I forget the exact term atm, but it's what amounts to a cultural vestige and is just for show and therefor is allowed
 

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Why are the words "In God We Trust" engraved over the backdrop of the Senate? Could this Constitutional violation be more blatant? And to think our Senator see this every session and do nothing?! Where are the ethics?

Similar to your subject, there are other religious practices that became intertwined into and approved by government even though they were illegal. The below link shows a brief commentary on the subject. One illegal practice is paid chaplains in the government and military. James Madison fought against this for Constitutional reasons, but the majority forced it through and to hell with the Constitution. After there was no going back, Madison relegated the practice to de minimus non curat, or 'too unimportant for the law to bother with.'

We saw the danger of the military chaplains a couple of years ago when some chaplains were trying illegally to prosyletize non-Christians. They were intimidating people, affecting their jobs. That's why the Constitution has two warnings against intermixing religion in government.

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Korimyr the Rat

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We saw the danger of the military chaplains a couple of years ago when some chaplains were trying illegally to prosyletize non-Christians.

It wasn't just chaplains, and this problem is fairly recent. It is a result of some of the political megachurches to subvert the military-- they were also paying officers (in other MOS) to proselytize in uniform on video.

I don't actually object to chaplains. They're of great comfort to our soldiers, in most cases regardless of religious faith or lack thereof.
 

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Steve
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It wasn't just chaplains, and this problem is fairly recent. It is a result of some of the political megachurches to subvert the military-- they were also paying officers (in other MOS) to proselytize in uniform on video..


Wasn't just Chaplains, but was also the officers the Chaplains persuaded to convert people. One Navy chaplain, Klingenschmitt, disobeyed direct orders not to pray in Jesus' name. I know about the video you mentioned, but the practices I'm talking about are separate.

Part of a transcript about the prosyletizing problem:


CALLEBS: One who is speaking out, Captain Melinda Morton. After serving as a missile launch officer, she became a chaplain late in her career.

MORTON: I had no less than three of my fellow chaplains come to me and ask me how in the world I thought I could -- I would consider myself to be a Christian if I didn't believe that we ought be hoping and praying that everyone at the Air Force Academy would be Christian.

CALLEBS: After two-and-a-half years at the academy, Morton, a Protestant chaplain, is making her concerns public.

(on camera): One of your colleagues told us, evangelicals can't check their religion at the door. Should the academy force them to check their religion at the door, to separate church and state?

MORTON: To associate your power and position with a religious agenda in the military is inappropriate. And it is against regulations.

CALLEBS: But it happens at the Air Force Academy.

MORTON: Yes, it does.

CNN.com - Transcripts



Korimyr the Rat said:
I don't actually object to chaplains. They're of great comfort to our soldiers, in most cases regardless of religious faith or lack thereof.

I'm sure they are comforting to the soldiers who are religious. But the legality of their existence in the military is my problem.
 

rathi

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I'd rather have the wording changed to " in the constitution we trust". But its such a minor issue that I don't really care much about it.

Chaplain should be kept as long as they continue to provide morale benefits to the soldiers. However, regulations should be enforced to prevent religion from interfering with their work. Putting your religion ahead of your military duties is moving down the path to treason. Soldiers are soldiers first and everything else second.
 

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I'd rather have the wording changed to " in the constitution we trust". But its such a minor issue that I don't really care much about it. .

Your wording is perfect. But I think its more important than you do.

Chaplain should be kept as long as they continue to provide morale benefits to the soldiers. However, regulations should be enforced to prevent religion from interfering with their work. Putting your religion ahead of your military duties is moving down the path to treason. Soldiers are soldiers first and everything else second.

There were and are regulations in place, but some of the Chaplains violated them because their way is the right way is the only way...

The violators are control freaks, and some will continue to break rules because they know better than everybody else on Earth.

That's why your wording should be used in this country instead of the phrase that a pandering, disloyal Congress chose in 1954. Or, go back to the proper, original motto, which is E Pluribus Unum. How could a McCarthy-imitating Congress hope to do better than the men who formed the country?
 

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i don't support "in god we trust" on any gov. building, money, or anywhere in which it violates the separation of church and state.

i would prefer, "In the people we trust"
 

hypgnostic

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Why are the words "In God We Trust" engraved over the backdrop of the Senate? Could this Constitutional violation be more blatant? And to think our Senator see this every session and do nothing?! Where are the ethics?


I agree. Wasn't this obvious religious slogan added only at the beginning of the 1900's?
 

Just Me 2

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Why do people have such a problem with this? You live in a country where the majority believe in God of some sort, you have to expect that there is going to be God in it. This is IMO part of why this country has gone to ****. People have nothing to believe in and don't accept personal responsibility anymore. Years ago when faith was important people took care of each other, they took care of their children and raised them to respect not only themselves but others. This has changed to the point of scaring the heck outta me. Kids have no respect, they take no personal responsibility and have nothing to believe in. Men not taking care of their children, woman having children they won't or can't take care of, it is sad. Kids are beating each other up so they can post it on the internet. Everyone has become selfish and only care about what they want and they don't care who they hurt to get it.

No matter how much you some might not like it faith brings hope, love and caring to those that have it. All of which has begun to disappear from this country.


Let the slamming begin.
 

Felicity

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Luke 12
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Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
52
From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three;
53
a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."


He seperates the sheep from the goats.
 

hypgnostic

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Why do people have such a problem with this? You live in a country where the majority believe in God of some sort, you have to expect that there is going to be God in it. This is IMO part of why this country has gone to ****. People have nothing to believe in and don't accept personal responsibility anymore. Years ago when faith was important people took care of each other, they took care of their children and raised them to respect not only themselves but others. This has changed to the point of scaring the heck outta me. Kids have no respect, they take no personal responsibility and have nothing to believe in. Men not taking care of their children, woman having children they won't or can't take care of, it is sad. Kids are beating each other up so they can post it on the internet. Everyone has become selfish and only care about what they want and they don't care who they hurt to get it.

No matter how much you some might not like it faith brings hope, love and caring to those that have it. All of which has begun to disappear from this country.


Let the slamming begin.

Or could it be that you just didn't hear about the violence as much in those days, or that it's because of the population explosion? More people = more violence. And if we look carefully we see that this is mostly a national problem rather than worldwide. Murder rates even in the middle east are much less than in the US.

I don't think 'god' has anything to do with it. It is just easier to blame stuff on 'the devil' rather than a thinking about a rational explanation.
 

Just Me 2

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Or could it be that you just didn't hear about the violence as much in those days, or that it's because of the population explosion? More people = more violence. And if we look carefully we see that this is mostly a national problem rather than worldwide. Murder rates even in the middle east are much less than in the US.

I don't think 'god' has anything to do with it. It is just easier to blame stuff on 'the devil' rather than a thinking about a rational explanation.


EXACTLY, we are one of the few countries that are removing faith from everything.
 

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Why do people have such a problem with this? You live in a country where the majority believe in God of some sort, you have to expect that there is going to be God in it. This is IMO part of why this country has gone to ****. People have nothing to believe in and don't accept personal responsibility anymore. Years ago when faith was important people took care of each other, they took care of their children and raised them to respect not only themselves but others. This has changed to the point of scaring the heck outta me. Kids have no respect, they take no personal responsibility and have nothing to believe in. Men not taking care of their children, woman having children they won't or can't take care of, it is sad. Kids are beating each other up so they can post it on the internet. Everyone has become selfish and only care about what they want and they don't care who they hurt to get it.

No matter how much you some might not like it faith brings hope, love and caring to those that have it. All of which has begun to disappear from this country.


Let the slamming begin.

The problem is Congress acted illegally and enacted a law which changed our national motto from the very appropriate E Pluribus Unum to something that amounts to a prayer.

I am not religious but am very responsible. The two don't necessarily exist together.

Hate to tell you, but current statistics show that 89% of Americans believe in a God, and 67% are Christian. So the problems you describe are surely in major part due to the actions of religious people.

You say the majority in this country believe in God, then you say faith, hope, caring, and love are disappearing. Then wouldn't the loss of those things be due in large part to the behavior of the religious among us?

Anyway, the cynical pandering of politicians who use God to get reelected by posting a motto supposedly dedicated to Him won't ever bring back the high qualities you talked about.
 

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I agree. Wasn't this obvious religious slogan added only at the beginning of the 1900's?

I pulled out one of my 1879 Morgan Dollars, and on one side it says E. Plusbus Unum, the other, in very small print, "In God We Trust"
 
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I reserve the right to be stupid and irrational in matters beyond empirical confirmation, and I should try to not be hypocrite enough begrudge you yours.

If we can mutually respect the fact that we are, in fact, being emotional and irrational about this, and we’ll all get along much better.

Acknowledge the fact that the Constitution was designed specifically to mitigate religious tensions by mandating the government stay neutral.



From my point of view (agnostic), having the government publicly state that we put our trust in God is not in keeping with the spirit of staying neutral on religious matters.
 

Jerry

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Why are the words "In God We Trust" engraved over the backdrop of the Senate? Could this Constitutional violation be more blatant? And to think our Senator see this every session and do nothing?! Where are the ethics?

:prof The words do not establish a national religion nor give any church or temple, etc., judicial power. Therefore there is no violation of the Wall of Separation.

In addition, the Senate may pray whenever they choose because that is free religious expression which does not establish a national religion nor grant any church, temple, etc., judicial power.

In other threads I see arguments posed from Atheists and Agnostics supporting abortion or gay marriage under the reasoning that such things are doing no one any harm.

Why is that reasoning not present on this topic by folks who oppose “In God We Trust”?
 
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I pulled out one of my 1879 Morgan Dollars, and on one side it says E. Plusbus Unum, the other, in very small print, "In God We Trust"

You prove the point that this was a relatively recent addition.

In the 1860s Congress made a law saying 'In God We Trust' could be printed on money. (Course, wasn't until the 1950s Congress made another law mandating the phrase be printed on money).

If you look back further, you'll see that money had pagan symbols, Roman and Greek Gods, and even pagan rulers depicted on it.
 

PoliticalActivist

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This is a non-issue. As long as it is American law being enforced inside our courtrooms and not Judaic law, then the words "In God We Trust" on the outside are neither an establishment of religion nor a violation of our civil rights.

I don't favor my tax monies being used to build religious monuments, but I'm not so offended by them that I favor my tax money being used to destroy them, either.

Justice is not served in all courtrooms, and who is there to enforce the Judge
to make the corrected ruling? Yet in the court system one must swear on the
bible. The courtroom is tied with the In GOD we trust theme, and the same
goes for being sworn in as President,etc,etc,etc. If they trust in GOD tell me
why is there Police Brutility. Inocent people getting locked up, and Judges is
being paid by the Lawyers? In closing that's using GOD's name in vain.
 

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:prof The words do not establish a national religion nor give any church or temple, etc., judicial power. Therefore there is no violation of the Wall of Separation.

The words, supposedly put there with the approval of Congress, DO RESPECT an establishment of religion.


In other threads I see arguments posed from Atheists and Agnostics supporting abortion or gay marriage under the reasoning that such things are doing no one any harm.

:doh You also see arguments posed by Christians and adherents to other religions supporting abortion CHOICE or gay marriage.
 

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Justice is not served in all courtrooms, and who is there to enforce the Judge
to make the corrected ruling? Yet in the court system one must swear on the
bible. The courtroom is tied with the In GOD we trust theme, and the same
goes for being sworn in as President,etc,etc,etc. If they trust in GOD tell me
why is there Police Brutility. Inocent people getting locked up, and Judges is
being paid by the Lawyers? In closing that's using GOD's name in vain.

You're wrong. No one has to swear on the Bible before testifying in court. Yor're wrong on the Presidential oath, too. A bible is not required. All that is required is the President swear to uphold the Constitution.
 

Jerry

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The words, supposedly put there with the approval of Congress, DO RESPECT an establishment of religion.

Those words established nothing.

They've been there for what, 5 decades, and we still have no official religion.

We don't even have an official language.

:doh You also see arguments posed by Christians and adherents to other religions supporting abortion CHOICE or gay marriage.

You didn't answer the question.

You have not shown how "In God We Trust" established a national religion, gave a religious institution judicial authority, nor illustrate how it violates your rights or do you any damage of any kind.
 

OKgrannie

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Those words established nothing.
They've been there for what, 5 decades, and we still have no official religion.
We don't even have an official language.
You didn't answer the question.
You have not shown how "In God We Trust" established a national religion, gave a religious institution judicial authority, nor illustrate how it violates your rights or do you any damage of any kind.

The words don't have to "establish" something to be in violation. The Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law RESPECTING an establishment of religion.." If Congress voted for funding the building with that inscription, they are RESPECTING an establishment of religion.


Befuddled Stoner got it right:
From my point of view (agnostic), having the government publicly state that we put our trust in God is not in keeping with the spirit of staying neutral on religious matters.
 
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