Impacts of Global Warming anthropogenic or natural.

[Rainman05]

There are plenty of other threads here to take on the CO2/AGW discussion. Count me as a skeptic. As for green energy, it's the wave of the future . . . and always will be. It's a complete bust and the USA will profit by staying out of it. (India is not a continent, btw.) Don't know much about South America, but I've lived a substantial part of my life in Africa. Green energy? Never.:lamo:lamo:mrgreen:

True, India is not a continent... my bad. But you get the idea.

And Africa was one of the fastest growing markets for cellphones in the early 2000s. And what makes you think they won't go for green energy?
Across africa, around 60-70 bil euros are being spent for the implementing of green energy production methods. that figure will continue to grow.

The world bank predicts that by 2030, there will be about 200mil homes in Africa powered by green energy. That's hundred of billions of dollars in that market right there.

You know who knows that that's the case?
China. That's why they're offering no-strings-attached credit to many african nations... to get friendly with them, mine their resources, make solar panels and sell them back to them (well, among other things).

And you know who else gets it?
Google. Google Makes First Renewable Energy Investment In Africa | CleanTechnica

And obama has managed to get the green energy production in america well on it's way too. That's maybe the sole good policy he had since he was in office. Now it would be nice if the US govt would invest more in R&D for solar power and other green energy to make sure that american companies will have a competitive edge on the global market and won't lose to chinesse companies.

 

[polgara]

I don't know what people like you should do here are 2 things.

There are areas that are more privileged for certain green energy sources than others. This goes without saying. But the regions where green energy is possible, all efforts must be made towards it.

As for solar panels... Germany for the most gets about as much sunlight as Ontario, Canada. And yet, it is investing like crazy in solar energy and the Bundenstag is the greenest government building in the world with over half of its energy needs being provided for all year round by solar panels. So there's something.

I understand they also experimented with wind power, and found it was not what they hoped, so they are doing away with the windmills now, and concentrating on solar. Whatever works best in the quest for alternatives to fossil fuels seems to be the goal worldwide. :idea:

 

[Jack Hays]

True, India is not a continent... my bad. But you get the idea.

And Africa was one of the fastest growing markets for cellphones in the early 2000s. And what makes you think they won't go for green energy?
Across africa, around 60-70 bil euros are being spent for the implementing of green energy production methods. that figure will continue to grow.

The world bank predicts that by 2030, there will be about 200mil homes in Africa powered by green energy. That's hundred of billions of dollars in that market right there.

You know who knows that that's the case?
China. That's why they're offering no-strings-attached credit to many african nations... to get friendly with them, mine their resources, make solar panels and sell them back to them (well, among other things).

And you know who else gets it?
Google. Google Makes First Renewable Energy Investment In Africa | CleanTechnica

And obama has managed to get the green energy production in america well on it's way too. That's maybe the sole good policy he had since he was in office.

There are plenty of Chinese strings attached, mainly to African resources. Green energy will never survive marketplace competition. Those investments you cite are PR window dressing.

 

[Rainman05]

There are plenty of Chinese strings attached, mainly to African resources. Green energy will never survive marketplace competition. Those investments you cite are PR window dressing.

No. The chinesse credit to african nations is an attempt to lure them away from EU and US foreign aid because said foreign aid is given on the basis of progress in many directions (anti-corruption, democratic reforms, free market engagement, small business grants, etc). And that's an inconvenience for the corrupt assholes who are in power there. So they'll take the chinesse credits and give them whatever they want in return.

The resources the chinesse are gobbling up are not part of the credit deals. They pay for them fair and square... because they already bribed the officials with the credit.

As for what those investments are... sure, you can call them PR material but once they start generating revenues for Google, they won't call it that at all. They'll call it cha-ching.

 

[longview]

There are plenty of Chinese strings attached, mainly to African resources. Green energy will never survive marketplace competition. Those investments you cite are PR window dressing.

I think Never is maybe too long of a time frame.
Photovoltaic s are still being developed, and energy costs are still rising.
Those two curves may one day cross.
The actual payback time is also fighting the home efficiency curve,
where as houses become more efficient, the direct monthly cost go down.
I think Germany may be on to something, where excess electricity is converted into natural gas
which can be stored for winter.
I could see a more elaborate system, where any extra power generated, buys you energy credits
that can be used for Gasoline, natural gas, or even get you electricity back.

 

[flogger]

Thanks, the greatest skill Humans possess, is our ability to adapt to our environment.
Perhaps all of the money spent, researching AGW, may yet yield a return, if we can
get a reasonable picture of what is ahead, and prepare properly.

Or perhaps it would be better spent still in assisting whatever adaptation might be necessary whatever happens . Its not like its pocket change being squandered on this exercise in guilt ridden anal gazing. Lets put this faux science aside and stop financing the accumulation of ever more expensive crystal balls ... sorry that should read climate models. Lets spend the money on the real problems we face today rather than the imagined ones 100 years down the road in some already failed climate construct

 

[Jack Hays]

No. The chinesse credit to african nations is an attempt to lure them away from EU and US foreign aid because said foreign aid is given on the basis of progress in many directions (anti-corruption, democratic reforms, free market engagement, small business grants, etc). And that's an inconvenience for the corrupt assholes who are in power there. So they'll take the chinesse credits and give them whatever they want in return.

The resources the chinesse are gobbling up are not part of the credit deals. They pay for them fair and square... because they already bribed the officials with the credit.

As for what those investments are... sure, you can call them PR material but once they start generating revenues for Google, they won't call it that at all. They'll call it cha-ching.

I don't believe Google (or anybody else) will ever make an unsubsidized dime off renewable energy. You have the Chinese right. Yes, they pay for what they take, but they get good terms and no quibbles about environmental damage because of their "generosity" with their negotiating partners.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

I think Never is maybe too long of a time frame.
Photovoltaic s are still being developed, and energy costs are still rising.
Those two curves may one day cross.
The actual payback time is also fighting the home efficiency curve,
where as houses become more efficient, the direct monthly cost go down.
I think Germany may be on to something, where excess electricity is converted into natural gas
which can be stored for winter.
I could see a more elaborate system, where any extra power generated, buys you energy credits
that can be used for Gasoline, natural gas, or even get you electricity back.

I'll stick with Never.:mrgreen:

 

[polgara]

I think Never is maybe too long of a time frame.
Photovoltaic s are still being developed, and energy costs are still rising.
Those two curves may one day cross.
The actual payback time is also fighting the home efficiency curve,
where as houses become more efficient, the direct monthly cost go down.
I think Germany may be on to something, where excess electricity is converted into natural gas
which can be stored for winter.
I could see a more elaborate system, where any extra power generated, buys you energy credits
that can be used for Gasoline, natural gas, or even get you electricity back.

Wow! Lots of excellent thought-provoking information you have posted here! :thumbs:

The thought occurs to me that maybe, just maybe, if we didn't waste time arguing about "fluff" issues, we might be tackling important things, like Germany is doing, to prepare for the future! We're falling behind here; and we see ourselves as leaders and innovators? We need to pick up the pace, then, or we'll be buying what we need from somewhere else! :wow:

Greetings, longview! :2wave:

 

[flogger]

Wow! Lots of excellent thought-provoking information you have posted here! :thumbs:

The thought occurs to me that maybe, just maybe, if we didn't waste time arguing about "fluff" issues, we might be tackling important things, like Germany is doing, to prepare for the future! We're falling behind here; and we see ourselves as leaders and innovators? We need to pick up the pace, then, or we'll be buying what we need from somewhere else! :wow:

Greetings, longview! :2wave:

Electricity prices per KwH are three times higher in Germany than those in the US due to massive taxpayer subsidy of renewables from central government . I dont think its a system anyone would consider emulating any time soon.



Its interesting too how much cheaper China and India are due to their non reliance on such costly alternatives

 

[polgara]

Electricity prices per KwH are three times higher in Germany than those in the US due to massive taxpayer subsidy of renewables from central government . I dont think its a system anyone would consider emulating any time soon.

View attachment 67154505

Its interesting too how much cheaper China and India are. I do know that China and India are due to their non reliance on such costly alternatives

Your first paragraph emphasizes my point about us being innovators, since we have apparently missed the call to be leaders...so far! We're certainly capable of being both, since this is still in its infancy

Your chart showing China and India was very interesting. I don't know what India is doing, but China spent lots of money and time getting the Three Gorges dam built! My mom and sister visited China, and they were awed by what they saw there! "Magnificent" was the word they used. Of course, China displaced millions of people building it, but that's China! I agree it probably wouldn't go over well here at all! :no:

Greetings, flogger. :2wave:

 

[flogger]

Your first paragraph emphasizes my point about us being innovators, since we have apparently missed the call to be leaders...so far! We're certainly capable of being both, since this is still in its infancy

:

Greetings Polgara eace

Its interesting too on that chart that the only country more costly than Germany is Denmark. A nation that has had an even more comprehensive and longer term commitment to such technologies yet they are certainly still not delivering the ecomomies claimed from these allegedly 'free' sources. indeed the opposite would appear to be the case

Your chart showing China and India was very interesting. I don't know what India is doing, but China spent lots of money and time getting the Three Gorges dam built! My mom and sister visited China, and they were awed by what they saw there! "Magnificent" was the word they used. Of course, China displaced millions of people building it, but that's China! I agree it probably wouldn't go over well here at all! :no

Yeah I just got back from touring China myself last month its incredible (and daunting) what is happening out there. Shanghai in particular is quite awesome. Doubtless their cheap energy prices are a major factor in their economic success and competitiveness because as we know such costs feed into absolutely everything within a modern society

 

[longview]

Wow! Lots of excellent thought-provoking information you have posted here! :thumbs:

The thought occurs to me that maybe, just maybe, if we didn't waste time arguing about "fluff" issues, we might be tackling important things, like Germany is doing, to prepare for the future! We're falling behind here; and we see ourselves as leaders and innovators? We need to pick up the pace, then, or we'll be buying what we need from somewhere else! :wow:

Greetings, longview! :2wave:

Hello Polgara!
It is not as bad as it sounds.
The Un-natural gas project in Germany was run at the University Of Stuttgart,
and there was some tie in to the Naval Research Labs, both yielded results.
Green Car Congress: Audi opens power-to-gas facility in Werlte/Emsland; e-gas from water, green electricity and CO2
Fueling the Fleet, Navy Looks to the Seas - U.S. Naval Research Laboratory
Because of the cost of man made hydrocarbons, it is still a niche market here in the US,
but the day may come when $6 a gallon Gasoline looks good.
What I see great about this type of research, is that there is now a sustainable path forward.
The Achilles heel of most of the alternative energy plans is storage, and how do you
run farming and transport equipment with electricity.
The mantra of many environmentalist that was a real concern was that oil was finite.
Now we can create hydrocarbons to store the alternative energy in a medium
that we already have the infrastructure to handle.
In addition once the energy is stored as a hydrocarbon, say natural Gas, it has an
unlimited shelve life.
Oh yea, and all of the fuel is Co2 neutral, because it is made from Co2 already in the atmosphere.

 

[polgara]

Greetings Polgara eace

Its interesting too on that chart that the only country more costly than Germany is Denmark. A nation that has had an even more comprehensive and longer term commitment to such technologies yet they are certainly still not delivering the ecomomies claimed from these allegedly 'free' sources. indeed the opposite would appear to be the case



Yeah I just got back from touring China myself last month its incredible (and daunting) what is happening out there. Shanghai in particular is quite awesome. Doubtless their cheap energy prices are a major factor in their economic success and competitiveness because as we know such costs feed into absolutely everything within a modern society

View attachment 67154510

The pictures were awesome! Is that Shanghai in the background from the bridge?

They were very closely chaperoned the entire trip... no seeing anything they didn't want you to see! Is it still that way?

My mom was also impressed with the Great Wall of China...and the fact that they rode camels to and from! Said she didn't know China had camels, and I think that tickled her more than anything else! :lamo: Show more pics when you have time! :thanks:

 

[flogger]

The pictures were awesome! Is that Shanghai in the background from the bridge?

The day picture is a view of the Pudong area . Believe or not there was NOTHING there but a boggy swamp area and a few fishermans huts as recently as 1991. The Night picture was taken of the Pudong from its tallest observation deck on the 101st floor of the IFC2 building

They were very closely chaperoned the entire trip... no seeing anything they didn't want you to see! Is it still that way?

No . In fact it was pretty much like Seoul or Tokyo in terms of freedom of movement. The 'C' in communism is getting smaller every day there. As a visitor its not important any more and I've been there three times now with no issues whatsoever. indeed I had a superb time

My mom was also impressed with the Great Wall of China...and the fact that they rode camels to and from! Said she didn't know China had camels, and I think that tickled her more than anything else! :lamo: Show more pics when you have time!

It is indeed an incredible sight. I believe camels come from the Mongolian desert not too far away from the western end of the wall. If you ever get the chance China is quite an experience !

Well you asked for them but I hope others wont be bored to death with them

The great wall at Badaling about 30 miles north of Beijing



The biggest Buddha in the world just completed a few years ago at Lingshan Da Fo in Wuxi province . Note the size of the people standing at its base for a sense of scale here



Beijing. The gate of heavenly peace looking out on Tiananmen square still sporting its huge portrait of Chairman Mao and where he made his speeches to the faithful red book wavers



Hong Kong. This is the massive clutter of advertising hoardings on the Fish Market street off Nathan Road



Sorry for the diversion folks we can get back on topic now ! :3oops:

 

[tech30528]

We'd be able to grow oranges and olives here in the Georgia mountains and I'd make even more money fixing AC systems. Oh, and avocados. Yummy.

 

[polgara]

The day picture is a view of the Pudong area . Believe or not there was NOTHING there but a boggy swamp area and a few fishermans huts as recently as 1991. The Night picture was taken of the Pudong from its tallest observation deck on the 101st floor of the IFC2 building



No . In fact it was pretty much like Seoul or Tokyo in terms of freedom of movement. The 'C' in communism is getting smaller every day there. As a visitor its not important any more and I've been there three times now with no issues whatsoever. indeed I had a superb time



It is indeed an incredible sight. I believe camels come from the Mongolian desert not too far away from the western end of the wall. If you ever get the chance China is quite an experience !

Well you asked for them but I hope others wont be bored to death with them

The great wall at Badaling about 30 miles north of Beijing

View attachment 67154516

The biggest Buddha in the world just completed a few years ago at Lingshan Da Fo in Wuxi province . Note the size of the people standing at its base for a sense of scale here

View attachment 67154517

Beijing. The gate of heavenly peace looking out on Tiananmen square still sporting its huge portrait of Chairman Mao and where he made his speeches to the faithful red book wavers

View attachment 67154518

Hong Kong. This is the massive clutter of advertising hoardings on the Fish Market street off Nathan Road

View attachment 67154519

Sorry for the diversion folks we can get back on topic now ! :3oops:

Excellent, just excellent! :thanks: flogger! :thumbs:

 

[clownboy]

If atmospheric CO2 is not a problem then there is absolutely no reason to move away from fossil fuels, reserves of which are enormous.eace

I disgaree with you there. Warming isn't the only issue on our plates. In fact this cultist AGW crap has taken people's sights off real problems just in time to give the big money polluters some relief. Air, water and soil pollution are a huge problem and fossil fuels sit at the center of that. We've got to learn, as much as possible, to make and power the stuff we need without poisoning the soil, the air, the water or ourselves.

 

[Jack Hays]

I disgaree with you there. Warming isn't the only issue on our plates. In fact this cultist AGW crap has taken people's sights off real problems just in time to give the big money polluters some relief. Air, water and soil pollution are a huge problem and fossil fuels sit at the center of that. We've got to learn, as much as possible, to make and power the stuff we need without poisoning the soil, the air, the water or ourselves.

If you think so then please go ahead. As for me, I don't think fossil fuels, handled properly, add to air, water and soil pollution at all.

 

[flogger]

I disgaree with you there. Warming isn't the only issue on our plates. In fact this cultist AGW crap has taken people's sights off real problems just in time to give the big money polluters some relief. Air, water and soil pollution are a huge problem and fossil fuels sit at the center of that. We've got to learn, as much as possible, to make and power the stuff we need without poisoning the soil, the air, the water or ourselves.

Thats why its so important the new gas fracking technologies get exploited . The pollution from such resources is considerably less than coal or oil firing and holds the prospect of much cleaner (though not entirely clean obviously) and cheaper energy for the best part of the next century or longer.

Why else do you think the environmentalists are so rabidly opposed to it ?