Immigration: No more Amnesty we need a Wall!

[Paratrooper]

Is the cost to pay an American worker more, more than the drain on our economy to support illegals with benefits?

 

[274ina]

Our tax dollars don't really pay for them as it is. Illegals qualify for very few federal programs besides a few targeting childhood nutrition. They also generally pay sales taxes, property taxes, and user fees, all while being disqualified from most benefits. I have said this numerous times: if immigrants withdrawing from welfare is the problem, then why don't we restrict welfare payments to them instead of restricting them?

They "qualify" for welfare because they take illegal, under the table wages. they also qualify by lying and running scams.

 

[Kal'Stang]

It is not a hard concept if you are not just being stubborn. If people pay someone $10K to get into the US, they are not going to leave when their job is done because they do not have $10K to pay someone to smuggle them back in next year. The easier you make it for people to enter to work, the more likely they will go home when their work is done because they know they can get back in again when they find work again next year. Americans are not lining up to pick lettuce in California. Without immigrants the work will not get done. Strong back-Weak mind-Willing to Work Long Hours is not the profile of an entitled American worker.

This is a common meme of pro-illegal folks. A vastly incorrect saying. There are roughly 7 million illegal aliens of legal age to work. If every single one of them worked in the agriculture business you still would not cover half of the agriculture business in the US. Which is roughly 22 million. Careers in Agriculture Who do you think does the rest? And to pounce the meme even further into the ground....Those 7 million illegals? They do far more jobs than agriculture. They do landscaping, construction, fast food, maintenance, janitorial, clean rooms in hotels and many many other jobs. Which means you'll be lucky to have even half of those 7 million illegals working in agriculture jobs. Again, who do you think is doing the rest of those 22 million agriculture jobs?

pfft....americans won't work in the fields my ass. :roll:

 

[Fisher]

This is a common meme of pro-illegal folks. A vastly incorrect saying. There are roughly 7 million illegal aliens of legal age to work. If every single one of them worked in the agriculture business you still would not cover half of the agriculture business in the US. Which is roughly 22 million. Careers in Agriculture Who do you think does the rest? And to pounce the meme even further into the ground....Those 7 million illegals? They do far more jobs than agriculture. They do landscaping, construction, fast food, maintenance, janitorial, clean rooms in hotels and many many other jobs. Which means you'll be lucky to have even half of those 7 million illegals working in agriculture jobs. Again, who do you think is doing the rest of those 22 million agriculture jobs?

pfft....americans won't work in the fields my ass. :roll:

it is not a "meme"--it is reality. The people who do the rest don't do the back-breaking manual labor. They are the family members who work on the family dairy farm, people who manage the workers, and the rest. I live in an area where people hate "damn Mexicans" but nobody else will do the work they need them to do. Legal immigrants have to be paid the prevailing wage, not just minimum wage, and that is what scares people more than "oh we will be flooded with them" crowd.

 

[Kal'Stang]

it is not a "meme"--it is reality. The people who do the rest don't do the back-breaking manual labor. They are the family members who work on the family dairy farm, people who manage the workers, and the rest. I live in an area where people hate "damn Mexicans" but nobody else will do the work they need them to do. Legal immigrants have to be paid the prevailing wage, not just minimum wage, and that is what scares people more than "oh we will be flooded with them" crowd.

Oh want to pass along personal ancedotes huh? 99% of the work done in the area that I live in is done by americans. (and we don't hate Mexicans) We have tree farms, potato farms (imagine that in Idaho! ), hay and straw farms, and hops farms for the most part. The only Mexicans we have up here doing that type of work live and work on a tree farm. Whether those particular Mexicans are illegal or not I have no idea. Could care less. But I do know that that farm still hires Americans. I worked there and they love hiring highschoolers. I've also worked in other states picking strawberries and raspberries.

Face it, you have at most 3 million illegal aliens doing farm work. That is not near enough to do the actual work for the amount of farms there are in the entire US. And thats not even counting the owners and managers and supervisors.

 

[Bodi]

Do you think that the people who toil in the sun all day picking your bagged salad are pasty-white faced do you? People aren't going to pick crops for corporations for very long. Field workers have a very short shelf-life. It destroys their bodies.

Doesn't really address the issue at hand nor does it explain a need to make racist comments...

 

[clownboy]

Do you think that the people who toil in the sun all day picking your bagged salad are pasty-white faced do you? People aren't going to pick crops for corporations for very long. Field workers have a very short shelf-life. It destroys their bodies.

That says more about how California has dealt with the issues of migrant workers and illegals than anything else. I've worked the berry and seed fields of Oregon and I am so pale at times I glow in the dark.

 

[Fisher]

Doesn't really address the issue at hand nor does it explain a need to make racist comments...

I didn't make a racist comment. I stated a fact. Just like the fact that if these were white people folks would not be so upset.

Almost half of illegal immigrants enter the US legally and then failed to stay in status, and as a practical matter, the INS is so horrible with processing paper that it is very difficult to adjust status in a timely fashion; the percentage of all immigrants in the US is lower than it was at its peak around 1900 when there were also a greater number of children being born to immigrants per capita; the supply of people willing to do low wage unskilled labor in the United States is declining every year because the boomers have aged out and those coming behind have higher education and higher job expectancies and won't do the jobs--when was the last time you applied to pluck chickens in a 100° building for any wage whatsoever?; foreign born immigrants have lower incarceration rates than native born populations; illegal immigrants pay in billions of dollars in taxes and emergency room care and an education are about all they get in exchange; and despite the myth, most of our prior first generation immigrants, legal or otherwise, did not speak a lick of english, including a great many of them from European places like Germany and Poland. There is zero factual basis to allege that immigration from Mexico or Asia is somehow draining anything from the US, and whether you like it or not, no freaking body is going to stand in line for 10-11 years to enter legally due to the quotas and the ability of other people to jump in line ahead of them already.

 

[clownboy]

The answer is - if it's too hard to come here legally, then don't come here because we'll take your stuff and send you back when we find you out. We shouldn't be educating their children either.

If we need more people than we have to work an industry, I guarantee you there will be plenty of visas, and those who take them, for just that purpose.

 

[Phil_Osophy]

If Obama and Reid found out that the immigrants would be voting republican, they would be pushing to build a wall.

 

[Bodi]

I didn't make a racist comment. I stated a fact. Just like the fact that if these were white people folks would not be so upset.

You are basically wrong across the entire board.

By commenting on the brown skin of the immigrants, that is indeed racist. There is no need to make any such comment. It is irrelevant and only adds to divide.

the supply of people willing to do low wage unskilled labor in the United States is declining every year because the boomers have aged out and those coming behind have higher education and higher job expectancies and won't do the jobs--when was the last time you applied to pluck chickens in a 100° building for any wage whatsoever?

My first job was a box boy at a toy store. I then was washing dishes in a restaurant in the 90's. By the late 90's, and after 15 years of experience in the industry, there are no white dishwashers anymore. The Mexicans both legal and illegal have flooded the industry. They have always been the pickers in the wine industry. Other than that they do have a negative impact on salaries.

; foreign born immigrants have lower incarceration rates than native born populations;

Texas county jails spent more than $156.6 million housing more than 131,000 illegal immigrants with federal detainers between October 2011 and September 2013, according to state jail commission data.

Read more here: Texas spending millions to jail illegal immigrants | State | News from Fort Worth, Dall...

FRANKLIN COUNTY -- KEPR learned illegal immigrants are draining money out of the Franklin County Jail. It's a shocking number. Last year, taxpayers forked over $750,000 to house illegal immigrants at the Franklin County Jail;$750,000 the jail can't afford to lose.

Illegal immigrants drain jail budget | Local & Regional | KEPR CBS 19 - News, Weather and Sports - Pasco, WA

illegal immigrants pay in billions of dollars in taxes and emergency room care and an education are about all they get in exchange; and despite the myth, most of our prior first generation immigrants, legal or otherwise, did not speak a lick of english, including a great many of them from European places like Germany and Poland.

What are you talking about? They get driving privilege cards, in-state college tuition, low interest home loans and all sorts of entitlements. I knew some illegals that qualified for a home loan when I didn't. A hard working teacher with a family that didn't but the illegal guys did. A crock of **** is what that was.

an increasing number of banks are seeing an untapped resource for growing their own revenue stream and contend that providing undocumented residents with mortgages will help revitalize local communities.

Banks help illegal immigrants own their own home - Aug. 8, 2005

There is zero factual basis to allege that immigration from Mexico or Asia is somehow draining anything from the US, and whether you like it or not, no freaking body is going to stand in line for 10-11 years to enter legally due to the quotas and the ability of other people to jump in line ahead of them already

• By increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent.

• Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent.

• The 10 million native-born workers without a high school degree face the most competition from immigrants, as do the eight million younger natives with only a high school education and 12 million younger college graduates.

• The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

Increasing the Supply of Labor Through Immigration: Measuring the Impact on Native-born Workers | Center for Immigration Studies

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

They "qualify" for welfare because they take illegal, under the table wages. they also qualify by lying and running scams.

Which iis precisely why we need to fix this problem!

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Again you can't add 12-20 million people to the legal workforce and not expect a significant negative impact on Americans. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is either a liar or a brain dead retard.

So I guess people with PhD's and far far more knowledge on the subject than you are "braindead retards"? Well, if you are so much more intelligent than me, show me the actual evidence that changes to the supply curve aren't largely compensated of by the increase in demand. You do realize that there's this thing called demand? The vast majority of economists put the impact of immigrants on wages as being well under 5%, and many even say that there is a positive effect.

http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/rethinking-the-effect-of-immigration-on-wages

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Except that through out all of this you keep forgetting one simple fact. You give amnesty to one group and more will come thinking they will get the same treatment. This was proven when Regan gave amnesty to 3 million illegals and today we have anywhere between 11-20 million today depending on your source. They think that they can get away with it. And largely they have due to pro-illegal folks. Do you think that illegal immigration will stop after we give this current batch of illegals amnesty? Because it won't. All that you are doing by giving these folks amnesty is perpetuating a system that is unsustainable for the simple fact that we are just one country with limited resources. The only way to stop illegal immigration and still achieve what you hope/want achieved is to open our borders wide open and give the entire world citizneship. And then where is that going to leave us? Until such time as the world is ready for a one world government we are just going to have to have immigration laws and actually ENFORCE those laws and stop pandering to bleeding hearts.

You are right that things like identity theft when it comes to illegals would go away if given amnesty. But it would only temporarily go away. Along with all the other troubles that are linked to illegal aliens. And that is the problem. You are just suggesting a temporary repreive. A bandaid. It does not solve the actual problem. We can't control how other countries treat their citizens. We cannot control other countries economies directly. The only thing that we can do is secure our own country to the best of our ability. The only way is to permanently stem the tide of illegal aliens.

We've had nearly open immigration for the first 150 years of our country's existence. Right now there simply isn't a way for most unskilled workers without family here to immigrate.

How do we do that? You actually suggested part of it in your post...at least in a round about way. In 2009 the rate of illegals coming into this country did drop quite drasticly, indeed many started going back. Why? Because they couldn't get a job. Not being able to get a job means that they also couldn't get a place to live. So we need to start focusing our attention on those things. Start punishing the people that help them. (And not with just slap on the wrists either.) Make it to where they cannot get jobs or housing here. They will go back. Those two things alone would get rid of, or at least drastically stem, your "shadow society". It would also be a permanent solution.


Now I know, people will counter "yeah but...why don't we give amnesty AND implement those!" Because Regan already tried it that way. The reason he accepted the amnesty bill was because there were also laws put into effect that was suppose to do some of the very things I suggest. Only problem is that once pro-illegal folks got what they wanted they ignored any other law implemented in that Amnesty bill. Or at least tried to half heartedly enforce it. As the old saying goes..."fool me once shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me". Sorry but I will not buy such clap trap again. No amensty. Period. Make laws that increase the penalty for anyone that rents or sells a home to any illegal and require e-verify to ensure it. Same with businesses hiring them. We don't need to build a fence along the border. We don't even need immigration agents patroling the border with the sole purpose of catching illegals. (maybe for other stuff...but not for illegals wanting to live here) We just need to make life unliveable here for them.

Getting rid of a giant shadow economy is a lot more difficult than you'd think, and cracking down would probably only worsen identity theft. Even with all of these restrictions, the difference in standard of living will still bring tons of people across the border. I think that anything that would be effective could be solved much ore cheaply by opening up immigration.

 

[Kal'Stang]

We've had nearly open immigration for the first 150 years of our country's existence.

Irrelevent to the here and now. People were a lot more self sufficient for those first 150 years than they are today. Now you can suck off the governments teet and get paid more than what you can at minimum wage.

Right now there simply isn't a way for most unskilled workers without family here to immigrate.

And yet we have over 1 million people legally coming to this country every year. Whether they have family here or not is irrelevent.

Getting rid of a giant shadow economy is a lot more difficult than you'd think, and cracking down would probably only worsen identity theft. Even with all of these restrictions, the difference in standard of living will still bring tons of people across the border. I think that anything that would be effective could be solved much ore cheaply by opening up immigration.

1: Nothing worth doing correctly is ever easy.

2: Kind of hard to have a good standard of living when they are refused places to live and work and education.

3: I have no problem with streamlining our immigration process. But not to opening it up. As I said before, it should be based on our unemployment vs need of immigrant workers. No one has a right to come to this country and as citizens (both born and naturalized) we should have the right to tell others to stay the hell out of our house and expect others to not break into it and if they do treat them just like any other burglarer.

4: Identity theft can be prevented and detected. In fact the IRS can tell every single time an SS number is used. If it is being used in more than one city then chances are one of those numbers is being used because someone stole it. Particularly if its being used in more than one state. And since SS numbers are linked to being born it is a simple matter to find out if a 2 year old childs SSN is being used.

 

[Kal'Stang]

So I guess people with PhD's and far far more knowledge on the subject than you are "braindead retards"? Well, if you are so much more intelligent than me, show me the actual evidence that changes to the supply curve aren't largely compensated of by the increase in demand. You do realize that there's this thing called demand? The vast majority of economists put the impact of immigrants on wages as being well under 5%, and many even say that there is a positive effect.

http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/rethinking-the-effect-of-immigration-on-wages

Your link just talks about "immigrants". It does not make a distinction between legal, or illegal. That in itself shows that it is biased reporting as each group has its own pro's and con's. It is well understood by most people that those that come here legally often have a net benefit effect. Also It also does not talk about what would happen with suddenly dumping 11 million people into the legal pool catagory. Their estimates are based off of what has happened over an extended time period. As such it does nothing to disprove jamesrage's assertion.

It should also be noted that it does not take into account things that we have recently learned about just what services illegal aliens are actually getting. Indeed none of the studies have...even the CBO. Two things that we have recently learned is that illegals have been getting medicare assistance...despite us having been told numerous times that they don't. We have also recently learned that many illegals have been getting tax returns for children who not only are not their own children but are not even living in the country...much less in the same household. And often times they get more back in refunds than citizens do. And supposedly (before we actually found out the truth), according to our government, illegals DO NOT get tax returns.

 

[jamesrage]

So I guess people with PhD's and far far more knowledge on the subject than you are "braindead retards"? Well, if you are so much more intelligent than me, show me the actual evidence that changes to the supply curve aren't largely compensated of by the increase in demand. You do realize that there's this thing called demand? The vast majority of economists put the impact of immigrants on wages as being well under 5%, and many even say that there is a positive effect.

http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/rethinking-the-effect-of-immigration-on-wages

A PHD doesn't make one unbiased.I am pretty sure those "economists"who are saying that flooding the labor market with 12-20 million plus extra workers will have little to no effect are pro-illegal immigration". The fact is if you flood the legal labor market with 12-20 million low skilled workers the those people are going to increase the number of people available to do those jobs.The more people avaliable to those jobs the less you have to pay them.This is a fact.