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Imagining God

jmotivator

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I've been involved in a lot of debates on this forum and others, and in person, about the subject of God.

Back when I was an atheist, I was quick to make the argument of the impossibility of God, the Trinity, seeming contradictions, and so on, that all really boiled down to the inconceivability of God. It wasn't until really my late 20s that I started to realize that if I were to be able to look myself in the mirror as an atheist I would need to start challenging my own arguments rather than just playing gatekeeper to other arguments. I challenged myself back then to read counter arguments, and settled on CS Lewis and my first step since I found in my search that CS Lewis was a convert.

I've long believed that your best source of cogent arguments for an against any subject are from those people who converted to their current opinions in adulthood. Those who hold their beliefs their whole life tend to maintain the beliefs of a child, I find.

Anyway, my first book by CS Lewis was actually the book that was published posthumously, "Letters to Malcom, Chiefly on Prayer". In that book, Lewis explores the relationship between man and God in ways that, as an Atheist, I felt at home with, but he carried the argument beyond my stopping point into follow-on questions and answers that I found uncomfortable because I found them so compelling. I have reread the book recently, and wanted to address one point.

That brings me to the topic: Imagining God.

In Lewis' book "Mere Christianity", he makes an interesting argument on how to properly think about some of the more puzzling aspects of Biblical teaching, and chiefly on the mystery of the Trinity. As Lewis' points out, this isn't a definitive argument, but merely a supposition that places the seemingly impossible into a logical framework.

The preliminary proposition is this: For the sake of argument, God is omnipotent.

As an omnipotent being, God persists and moves in all dimensions. So, before we go further, consider this short film describing the 10 dimensions:



Lewis, in Mere Christianity, argues the Trinity in much the same fashion as this film describes the encounter between 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional beings. In Lewis' example he uses a group of 2 dimensional square beings in a 2 dimensional world who encounter a 3 dimensional cube being. While the Cube Being can present any of their 6 sides to the 2 dimensional beings, a 2 dimensional being, using the reasoning of a 2 dimensional universe, would view the new being as 6 separate beings.

In this same way Lewis' proposes the simple theory that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same being but their unity is in dimensions beyond our ability to easily comprehend. To us they are presented as three separate entities.

It's an interesting hypothesis, and in fact, if God is omnipotent, then it likely to be true since God couldn't truly reveal his whole self to us without presenting as many separate beings.
 
I've been involved in a lot of debates on this forum and others, and in person, about the subject of God.

Back when I was an atheist, I was quick to make the argument of the impossibility of God, the Trinity, seeming contradictions, and so on, that all really boiled down to the inconceivability of God. It wasn't until really my late 20s that I started to realize that if I were to be able to look myself in the mirror as an atheist I would need to start challenging my own arguments rather than just playing gatekeeper to other arguments. I challenged myself back then to read counter arguments, and settled on CS Lewis and my first step since I found in my search that CS Lewis was a convert.

I've long believed that your best source of cogent arguments for an against any subject are from those people who converted to their current opinions in adulthood. Those who hold their beliefs their whole life tend to maintain the beliefs of a child, I find.

Anyway, my first book by CS Lewis was actually the book that was published posthumously, "Letters to Malcom, Chiefly on Prayer". In that book, Lewis explores the relationship between man and God in ways that, as an Atheist, I felt at home with, but he carried the argument beyond my stopping point into follow-on questions and answers that I found uncomfortable because I found them so compelling. I have reread the book recently, and wanted to address one point.

That brings me to the topic: Imagining God.

In Lewis' book "Mere Christianity", he makes an interesting argument on how to properly think about some of the more puzzling aspects of Biblical teaching, and chiefly on the mystery of the Trinity. As Lewis' points out, this isn't a definitive argument, but merely a supposition that places the seemingly impossible into a logical framework.

The preliminary proposition is this: For the sake of argument, God is omnipotent.

As an omnipotent being, God persists and moves in all dimensions. So, before we go further, consider this short film describing the 10 dimensions:



Lewis, in Mere Christianity, argues the Trinity in much the same fashion as this film describes the encounter between 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional beings. In Lewis' example he uses a group of 2 dimensional square beings in a 2 dimensional world who encounter a 3 dimensional cube being. While the Cube Being can present any of their 6 sides to the 2 dimensional beings, a 2 dimensional being, using the reasoning of a 2 dimensional universe, would view the new being as 6 separate beings.

In this same way Lewis' proposes the simple theory that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same being but their unity is in dimensions beyond our ability to easily comprehend. To us they are presented as three separate entities.

It's an interesting hypothesis, and in fact, if God is omnipotent, then it likely to be true since God couldn't truly reveal his whole self to us without presenting as many separate beings.

. . . . . the foundation of which still seems to proceed from the unsupportable assumption that the bible has any relationship whatsoever to god. Where does that idea come from? Or for that matter, the trinity?? Stacking masonry won't build a case if your first brick has no foundation.
 
I've long believed that your best source of cogent arguments for an against any subject are from those people who converted to their current opinions in adulthood. Those who hold their beliefs their whole life tend to maintain the beliefs of a child, I find.

The great bulk of atheists in this forum and elsewhere seem to be those who were raised in religion and gained their atheism only after releasing from their childhood beliefs when they came into their own as regards their understanding of what they had been taught. So you are then saying that they are the best source of cogent arguments against a “belief in God”? Is that correct?
 
The great bulk of atheists in this forum and elsewhere seem to be those who were raised in religion and gained their atheism only after releasing from their childhood beliefs when they came into their own as regards their understanding of what they had been taught. So you are then saying that they are the best source of cogent arguments against a “belief in God”? Is that correct?

Of course. Anyone who has changed their position through their life has shown that they at least have the capacity to question their own beliefs.
 
...if God is omnipotent, then it likely to be true since God couldn't truly reveal his whole self to us without presenting as many separate beings.
I've always imagined god to be a mysterious thing doing mysterious things for reasons that will forever remain mysterious. It gets me through the day.
 
. . . . . the foundation of which still seems to proceed from the unsupportable assumption that the bible has any relationship whatsoever to god. Where does that idea come from? Or for that matter, the trinity?? Stacking masonry won't build a case if your first brick has no foundation.

I have made the argument already. An omnipotent God who presides over the entirety of the universe would present to lesser beings like us as multiple entities since our perception of higher dimensions is limited, and we cannot perceive different facets of the same being as one being when those facets are derived from higher dimensions.

As for the existence of God, that is another argument entirely, I clearly stated that the argument for a rational explanation of the Trinity relies first, for the sake of argument, on the presumption of the claim of an omnipotent God as true, and the sub-argument that a poly-deity universe could not contain more than one omnipotent deity.
 
I have made the argument already. An omnipotent God who presides over the entirety of the universe would present to lesser beings like us as multiple entities since our perception of higher dimensions is limited, and we cannot perceive different facets of the same being as one being when those facets are derived from higher dimensions.

As for the existence of God, that is another argument entirely, I clearly stated that the argument for a rational explanation of the Trinity relies first, for the sake of argument, on the presumption of the claim of an omnipotent God as true, and the sub-argument that a poly-deity universe could not contain more than one omnipotent deity.
So, in short, the entire construct is based on 1) Omnipotence, and 2) the existence of a trinity. Got it.
Is there a reason why the construct needs either? Could there be a god who is not omnipotent - and not part of a trinity? What does belief in god unto itself have to do with the bible? (trinity)
And what do those two postulates have to do with your transformation from atheist to deist? I'm not following the premise of your post.
 
So, in short, the entire construct is based on 1) Omnipotence, and 2) the existence of a trinity. Got it.
Is there a reason why the construct needs either? Could there be a god who is not omnipotent - and not part of a trinity? What does belief in god unto itself have to do with the bible? (trinity)
And what do those two postulates have to do with your transformation from atheist to deist? I'm not following the premise of your post.

Well, sure there could be, but that isn't the point of the thread. This thread is to present a rational argument for the God of the Bible using the current understanding of a universe with more than 4 dimensions. An Omnipotent God would move in all 10 dimensions freely, and would likely present to our limited dimensional sense as the God of the Bible does.
 
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