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Imagine No Religion

EdwinWillers

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devildavid:

Most of the art I have encountered from pre-history to the 19th Century has been religiously inspired. If there was no religion, such art would not exist. You claim there would still be plenty of great architecture and art without religion, but that is conjecture and thus not provable fact. There are other sources of inspiration, yes, but an awful lot of traditional art and culture has been shaped, flavoured and inspired by religion as my list in an earlier post describes. The rest of your post is conjecture and thus cannot be argued with fact-based debate.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
Good point.

Even science is beholden to "religion." Alfred North Whitehead said: "“Men became scientific because they expected law in nature, and they expected law in nature because they believed in a Lawgiver.”
 

devildavid

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Good point.

Even science is beholden to "religion." Alfred North Whitehead said: "“Men became scientific because they expected law in nature, and they expected law in nature because they believed in a Lawgiver.”

Doesn't matter what Alfred North Whitehead said. There is no logical connection between religion and science and one does not require the other to exist.
 

EdwinWillers

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Doesn't matter what Alfred North Whitehead said. There is no logical connection between religion and science and one does not require the other to exist.
By that logic then neither does it matter what you or I say. All is, as Solomon [ironically] stated - "vanity."
 

Evilroddy

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This whole thread is about conjecture. What if there was no religion? So my conjecture is valid. There are no factual reasons that suggest that human creativity depends upon religion.
devildavid:

It's time to read some art history books. Religion has inspired and touched the great preponderance of art and cultural expression since before history began. That is a fact. In a world without religion all that heritage evaporates and is lost. We would all be the poorer for it, even if your seeming distaste for religion means that you personally would not care about that loss.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

devildavid

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By that logic then neither does it matter what you or I say. All is, as Solomon [ironically] stated - "vanity."

One man's quote does not make what he said an objective fact. Men became scientific for much more than what Whitehead's opinion is the reason. Our natural curiosity is another very obvious reason. We like to figure out how things work.
 

devildavid

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devildavid:

It's time to read some art history books. Religion has inspired and touched the great preponderance of art and cultural expression since before history began. That is a fact. In a world without religion all that heritage evaporates and is lost. We would all be the poorer for it, even if your seeming distaste for religion means that you personally would not care about that loss.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

I know what happened in history. I am stating that art does not factually rely on religion alone. If you removed religious art from the world it would do no harm to humanity and would not make the world any worse, except for those who like religious art. Art has many sources of inspiration and manifests itself in many different ways. The world without religion is different, for sure, but what can be gained may be better than what is lost. There would still be human creativity.
 

Elora

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Jonathan Swift wrote...“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one-another”...even the choice of neutrality is hated...thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been imprisoned for choosing the course of neutrality...I prefer to imagine no politics but alas, man will always find something to divide him, whether it be religion, politics, nationality, or race...peace on earth will only come, not by human efforts, but by means of God’s Kingdom, a heavenly government ruled by Christ Jesus...
 

AGENT J

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Seriously, just for the sake of conversation and discussion, try to imagine that religion, any/all religions, had never been introduced into the world. What would be the pros and cons in this hypothetical non-religious world when compared and contrasted to the world with religion(s) in it, like the world we live in? How would the world be different in a non-religious world as compared to a world with religion(s) in it?


Wow, I have no cluew how the history of the world would be different. .hard to even imagine . . . .

I mean soooooo much death and so many massive wars were fought over religion but at the same time there was tons of good and imo the right side won some of those wars . . not based on religion but on what i might think is just/better for society

I couldn't even begin to figure out what might or might not be . . .

but I will say if we were in the exact point we are right now (structure, society morals etc) and i could snap my fingers and religion disappeared from history/memory etc, in 2022 id confidently guess this country would be much better
 

OrphanSlug

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Seriously, just for the sake of conversation and discussion, try to imagine that religion, any/all religions, had never been introduced into the world. What would be the pros and cons in this hypothetical non-religious world when compared and contrasted to the world with religion(s) in it, like the world we live in? How would the world be different in a non-religious world as compared to a world with religion(s) in it?

Unfortunately, these conversations only allow for wild speculation and often at the fault of assuming all other factors remain constant.

If you agree that religion is the biggest underlying reason for all conflict it would be presumptuous to assume humanity would not find or has not already found other reasons for conflict.

We often suggest that religion is the source of bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and sheer ignorance but the fact of the matter is men came up with the text that ended up codifying social constructs handed down generation to generation up to society to society as "religion." It does not matter which religion we are talking about, be it polytheistic to monotheistic or be it bronze age originating or far eastern philosophy originating, once you strip away all the theology and mysticism you end up with a book of social influences.

Without it being, codified or organized, sponsored or promoted, or simply the prevailing ideology for some other reason all of those underlying traits for humanity at the time were still there.

All the ills of society. Slavery, women as second to men, "marriage" being more about about property and lineage, aristocratic intentions, widespread cruelty and public scorn, the list goes on.

It is reasonable that social evolutions without religion moved humanity past some of these things even though we still struggle in some regard with them today.

I would argue religion is what holds us back from more social and human evolutions but what we are evolving from still existed and would have as humanity had to (and still has to) figure out a way to deal with the sins of our past.
 

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Laws, art, societies would have evolved without religion. Perhaps we would be a more nature-based species more in tune with our symbiotic relationship with nature rather than our dominion over it. We have yet to master the activity of our vertebrate hypothalamus to alter our behaviors of fight, flight, feed, and sexual functioning in order to live in a less discordant world.

In order to speculate about a world without religion, I think we have to ponder the differences between those who are religious and those who aren't. Psychosocial research is still ongoing but early indications are that it is the certainty of belief and not the content of belief that differentiates the mental health and overall life satisfaction of religious and non religious people. If that is true, then life without religion would function the same as it now functions and the artifacts we produce would look different but I have no idea how, perhaps nature and human focused sans religious iconography and literature.

 

Logician Man

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Aren't you really asking what life would be like if we, as humans, or as societies and cultures simply ignored the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, supernatural being altogether?>>>
No. That is what "you" are asking. No where in my OP is there any mention in the OP hypothetical of "ignoring the existence" of anything.. The OP clearly states "in a hypothetical world in which religion was never introduced." One can't 'ignore' the "existence" of what has never "existed" in the hypothetical presented in the OP.
 

devildavid

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No. That is what "you" are asking. No where in my OP is there any mention in the OP hypothetical of "ignoring the existence" of anything.. The OP clearly states "in a hypothetical world in which religion was never introduced." One can't 'ignore' the "existence" of what has never "existed" in the hypothetical presented in the OP.

Believers often like to say that non-believers are denying something. It is called begging the question.
 

EdwinWillers

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One man's quote does not make what he said an objective fact. Men became scientific for much more than what Whitehead's opinion is the reason. Our natural curiosity is another very obvious reason. We like to figure out how things work.
One man's quote doesn't make what he said subjectively false either. But you're right - Whitehead's opinion is certainly not an absolute.

I wonder what trait it is that gives rise to our innate curiosity, let alone the presumption that we could figure things out in the first place?
 

tosca1

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Absence of religion ≠ absence of laws.


Did you read post #13 at all?
Let's do the large font - maybe it'll help.


Sure, society will make up their own laws - but, what kind of laws would they be?


How did you ever equate my statement with....................................... "absence of laws."
 

tosca1

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There's a false cause fallacy if I ever saw one. It renders the rest of your post meaningless.



You don't think you have any baser instinct?

Anyway - I gave the Nazi regime as an example of what could happen without fear of God, didn't I?
I gave Communist regimes, too.....didn't I?


What do you have to support the contrary?
Do you have any example to support what you seem to suggest that without religion - meaning, without fear of God - everything will be as you seem to imagine it will be?

Don't tell me you bought John Lenon's stupid song IMAGINE, which must've been written while he was high? Swallowed it - without any thought - hook, line, and sinker?




The brutalities in Africa fail to conjure a different level of terror? What they do in some places aren't just simple "killings."
They're still happening!

The movie "Tears of The Sun" apparently was inspired by real events, especially that very graphic scene. Hacking off breasts of nursing mothers was not uncommon!














That's what man is capable of doing.
At least, an animal savages another animal for food.....although, there are animals who toy with their prey before they kill them.



You don't have to imagine it!
We know indeed what the world will be like, without any fear of GOD.
Literally - life will be hell on earth.
 
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tosca1

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The same things that limit so-called "lower" animal behavior also limit human behavior. Has to do with natural things, not made up supernatural things.
:rolleyes:


Read post #40.
 

Colin Norris

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Seriously, just for the sake of conversation and discussion, try to imagine that religion, any/all religions, had never been introduced into the world. What would be the pros and cons in this hypothetical non-religious world when compared and contrasted to the world with religion(s) in it, like the world we live in? How would the world be different in a non-religious world as compared to a world with religion(s) in it?
I'm a firm atheist but I must admit, that question has me stumped. Although I do believe the mental freedoms and constant garbage from religions would make it easier to survive.
Maybe it's not a bridge too far. I already live without that rubbish. Its the godbotherers Who won't give it up.
 

Argent

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@tosca1 You forgot to include examples of religious pogroms that have tortured and killed in the name of god and due to fear of god.
 

TypicalRussian

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Seriously, just for the sake of conversation and discussion, try to imagine that religion, any/all religions, had never been introduced into the world. What would be the pros and cons in this hypothetical non-religious world when compared and contrasted to the world with religion(s) in it, like the world we live in? How would the world be different in a non-religious world as compared to a world with religion(s) in it?
hell
 

TypicalRussian

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If there is no religion - and, we're no higher than animals - what would stop people from pursuing and letting loose their baser instincts?

base instinct

A subconscious urge, behavior, or intuition directed by primeval, animalistic, self-serving, or ignoble motivations.




Sure, society will make up their own laws - but, what kind of laws would they be?
Surely, we're not so naive as to imagine it will be for the "common" good?



We see how politicians now are all mostly doing things that are self-serving...............................does it take any stretch of the imagination how it's gonna be?
To have a blueprint of an idea...........................think of the Nazi regime.
Look at communist countries!
Very important concept to understand! The core message of the Bible is rejecting animalistic vices and ascending to a higher purpose and better life in God. Monogamy, which literally built civilization, is an example of ascending animalistic tendencies and rejecting the natural polygamy state of humanity. It's why sin is the City of Man and virtue is the City of God. No other religion has done this. Islam promises 72 virgins upon death, an animalistic sexual desire. Judaism has a series of animalistic and violent rituals. Christianity is the most successful religion because of this concept.
 

Logician Man

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Very important concept to understand! The core message of the Bible is rejecting animalistic vices and ascending to a higher purpose and better life in God. Monogamy, which literally built civilization, is an example of ascending animalistic tendencies and rejecting the natural polygamy state of humanity. It's why sin is the City of Man and virtue is the City of God. No other religion has done this. Islam promises 72 virgins upon death, an animalistic sexual desire. Judaism has a series of animalistic and violent rituals. Christianity is the most successful religion because of this concept.
Rejecting animal vices is a difficult task for most, considering human beings are animals as designed by God(s). ( assuming any God(s) actually exist )
 

TypicalRussian

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Rejecting animal vices is a difficult task for most, considering human beings are animals as designed by God(s). ( assuming any God(s) actually exist )
yes but they are meant to be with God
 

tosca1

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@tosca1 You forgot to include examples of religious pogroms that have tortured and killed in the name of god and due to fear of god.

You guys like bringing that kind of rationale up, but it's faulty!
Religion can be evil.....but that doesn't mean, all religions are evil.

If people do evil things in contrast to what their doctrine teaches - then, don't blame it on that religion!
I suppose you never heard of.........................fraud? Hypocrisy? Which are not exclusive to religious people! :)

Look around you. If we have so many evil things going at this time - imagine what your society will be like without any fear of God (at all), holding back so many people from following their baser instinct!


We haven't experienced the full scope of what depravity can be. I suppose, imagination and creativity would be the limit. It's usually what we call............................."sick."
What comes to mind as an example is the gang-rape and torture of a young woman in a public bus in India. That kind of rape (by gang) seems to be happening a lot in India.
A collective mindset towards that particular type of depravity, seems to be present in that society.

We've heard of sick dictators - like Idi Amin cannibalising his victims!

Anyone could be on the receiving end of brutality (being the victim) instead of the perpetrator. Think about that.
 
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tosca1

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Rejecting animal vices is a difficult task for most, considering human beings are animals as designed by God(s). ( assuming any God(s) actually exist )

God has made man in His image.


Having God’s image means we are fashioned to resemble and represent God on the earth.
Some Christians like to say we are “imagers of God.” Our likeness with God is not a physical resemblance.

Instead, God’s likeness denotes our capacity to rule over creation and be in relationship with God and other humans and to exercise reason, intelligence, speech, moral consciousness, creativity, rationality, and choice.
Since the beginning of time, God has desired to bless us and enjoy close fellowship with us, and for this reason He made us like Himself.





We have proof of that!
 

tosca1

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Rejecting animal vices is a difficult task for most, considering human beings are animals as designed by God(s). ( assuming any God(s) actually exist )

We are created.
We didn't evolve from any animals.



Our vast difference and SUPERIORITY over ALL animals in exercising reason, intelligence, speech, moral consciousness, creativity, rationality, and choice, is proof of that.


Unless...............you can show me an animal whom you consider to be your equal.
 
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