I'm black and get persucuted by others blacks. Guess why.

[opendebate]

I don't know what in the heck they think because some of America's most influential blacks including the leader of the NAACP don't speak with a so-called black accent.

Okay, I went through the other posts and see that I was right. I'm guessing you have asked them why. What do they say?

 

[windowdressing]

You have to admit that what you received criticism for is one of the reasons you're among the few who would make it past the first cut for many jobs. While some will look only at the statistics and call it a racist hiring strategy, it's judging on character and not skin color as MLK mentioned in his dream speech.

hmmmm ... I see where this is heading :roll:, so I'll leave you all ... take care ...

 

[Smeagol]

And you write white too!!!!! only kidding Smeag ... I hope you don't let a handful of ignorant people get under your skin ...

Write white? My typos are notorious.

Nah, it doesn't bother me that much. I just heard a criticism recently from someone I admired and I just didn't understand it considering there are a lot of blacks who don't have a distinctive black accent and people, including blacks look up to them.

 

[Tucker Case]

QFT.

I've a good friend with whom I spent some time during a recent visit and he likes to joke with me "there you go, using words with all those syllables again." And in class, I recently used the word "ubiquitous" and you'd think I'd boxed everyone's ears. It is a little disconcerting though as you say that rather than ask what you mean (or take the time to figure it out themselves), people tend to ridicule you instead - even if they think they're doing it in a friendly way.

The thing that always cracks me up about it is the fact that 12 years ago or so, when I was just an "uneducated" carpenter, I had the same damned vocabulary and used it just as often as I do now. I got made fun of then, too, but in a good-natured sort of way because I was still "one of them". Now that I have multiple degrees, though, I'm supposedly "full of myself" and the criticisms have increased significantly and have lost their good nature.

It doesn't matter that I haven't actually changed my style of speech at all. What has changed is their perception of me now that I have become officially "educated".

 

[Smeagol]

Okay, I went through the other posts and see that I was right. I'm guessing you have asked them why. What do they say?

Typically, there seems to be some sort of jealousy and/or once I start to dig a little into the motive of what they'd hope would just be a quick off the cuff comment, they clam up.

 

[opendebate]

Typically, there seems to be some sort of jealousy and/or once I start to dig a little into the motive of what they'd hope would just be a quick off the cuff comment, they clam up.

I would guess that envy and feeling threatened maybe a little betrayed are all present and are pretty common human reactions to a situation where you feel like someone who "should" conform to the group for reasons of solidarity is not. It's not okay and hopefully some will reflect on what is motivating them but that kind of self examination is pretty rare. I can see how some would think that you are identifying with the enemy. Not that that is okay just an effort to understand why they give you a hard time. Being a little more successful than those in your group always comes with a price tag, unfortunately.

 

[windowdressing]

Write white? My typos are notorious.

Nah, it doesn't bother me that much. I just heard a criticism recently from someone I admired and I just didn't understand it considering there are a lot of blacks who don't have a distinctive black accent and people, including blacks look up to them.

as time passes, more and more distinctive accents, including regional accents, not just "black accents," will disappear, as education levels rise, as people move around and have more shared experiences with people from other groups and parts of the country ... my oldest son, for example, is Puerto Rican (both my wife and I are) and he went to high school principally with Asian-American kids in CA, and in college ends up meeting, falling in love with, and marrying a white woman from Alabama, from a conservative family (and we're very much on the left, as are our sons) ... you can barely detect her southern accent and if you talked to my son, or any of us on the phone, there's no way you'd even say, he/they sound Latino, let alone Puerto Rican ... the times they are a changin' ... people need to leave other people alone ...

but you also noted that you listen to Rush ... if you tend to be on the conservative side and you're black, that can cause you to get flack from other blacks who, as a group, tend to be more liberal ... Is that the case?

 

[Lutherf]

Interesting, i have never encountered this myself to any real extent, when i was younger (elementary to maybe 20) it came up a few times by a couple people but they were all idiots so i never thought anything of it.

Do you consider the people that bring this up idiots? uneducated, criminals, uncouth etc? or do educated people actually say it to you also?
Guess im just trying to get a feel for who these people are and how old you are, in my adult life this has never come up.

my other question would be what is black accent, i mean thats soooooo wide and so subjective. For example the way i speak around my friends would not be how i talk in the board room or to my grandmother.
But at the same time i wouldnt call many of the things i say "black", i mean some i definitely would consider them but in general i think its more slang/pop culture talk.

When I think "black accent" it's only partially tonal but more sentence structure (which, I suppose, would make it dialect instead of accent). "Where's the white wimmin at?" instead of "Where are the white women?" would be an example.

I don't necessarily consider it to be a "black thing" because we all do it to some extent. I always considered Ed Koch to be a little "off" because of his rich Bronx accent while Giuliani, who grew up in Brooklyn, didn't have much accent so he came across differently. I also look at Sarah Palin as a victim of this kind of bias. She's no fool but her colloquialisms have caused vast numbers of people to write her off.

Speaking in unaccented English and using proper sentence structure is a sign of intelligence and comes off as being far more authoritative thus the speaker is generally given more credibility. However, in casual situations a little loosening of the rules can make things more comfortable.

 

[Tucker Case]

Typically, there seems to be some sort of jealousy and/or once I start to dig a little into the motive of what they'd hope would just be a quick off the cuff comment, they clam up.

BTW, thank you for deciding to write a thread title which puts this song into my head every time I see it:

 

[OscarB63]

When I think "black accent" it's only partially tonal but more sentence structure (which, I suppose, would make it dialect instead of accent). "Where's the white wimmin at?" instead of "Where are the white women?" would be an example.

I don't necessarily consider it to be a "black thing" because we all do it to some extent. I always considered Ed Koch to be a little "off" because of his rich Bronx accent while Giuliani, who grew up in Brooklyn, didn't have much accent so he came across differently. I also look at Sarah Palin as a victim of this kind of bias. She's no fool but her colloquialisms have caused vast numbers of people to write her off.

Speaking in unaccented English and using proper sentence structure is a sign of intelligence and comes off as being far more authoritative thus the speaker is generally given more credibility. However, in casual situations a little loosening of the rules can make things more comfortable.

from my experience, many blacks seem to have problems with the letter "s" and its use in plural tense and possesive.

 

[Hard Truth]

BINGO! I don't sound distinctively "black" when I talk. This means I think I'm better than other blacks, "you've forgotten you're one of us," I'm not a true black person, I'm an embarrassment to my race, I'm pretending to be white, etc. etc. Its actually funny. Even though I'm in no way saying all or even most black people I know have expressed this criticism, it happens enough that I'm personally mildly put off by it.

But yeah, a lot of black people I know apparently have a problem with blacks who lack a distinctively black sounding accent and I'm in the club due to no fault of my own. I was raised by a school teacher who forbade me to speak in the dialect of the streets in what later became known as Ebonics and I moved around a little growing up, which tends to give some people a more general accent as opposed to having a tendency for a more regional accent such as a Southern Drawl, Mid Western or New England accent. In my case it seems to have also neutralized any distinctive ethnic sound as well.

I have known black people who consider themselves bilingual, they speak standard American English at work and with mixed groups and Black Neighborhood English (sorry, Ebonics sounds too silly) when with people who speak that way. One co-worker mentioned that he thought it was important that his kids know how and when to use Standard American English.

I have heard some quickly switch from one to another while on the phone at work, just like my Chinese co-worker switches from English to Cantonese. (although sometimes he mixes English words and phrases in with the Cantonese.) I can imagine that would be hard to do if you grew up in the suburbs and never learned Black Neighborhood English. Just tell the haters that you were disadvantaged and didn´t have the opportunity to learn that second language. (actually dialect)

Some of the people you mentioned still sound black to me, but in a style that is closer to Standard American English. There is a lot of middle ground between the two dialects.

Its interesting to also note the increase in whites speaking Black Neighborhood English these days (although many southerners were always pretty close) some because they lived in a largely black neighborhood or mixed family and some affect it after watching a bunch of rap videos.

I enjoy listening to different dialects, guessing people´s backgrounds and incorporating some of the cooler words, phrases and pronunciation into my speaking.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)When I think "black accent" it's only partially tonal but more sentence structure (which, I suppose, would make it dialect instead of accent). "Where's the white wimmin at?" instead of "Where are the white women?" would be an example.

2.)I don't necessarily consider it to be a "black thing" because we all do it to some extent. I always considered Ed Koch to be a little "off" because of his rich Bronx accent while Giuliani, who grew up in Brooklyn, didn't have much accent so he came across differently. I also look at Sarah Palin as a victim of this kind of bias. She's no fool but her colloquialisms have caused vast numbers of people to write her off.

3.) Speaking in unaccented English and using proper sentence structure is a sign of intelligence and comes off as being far more authoritative thus the speaker is generally given more credibility. However, in casual situations a little loosening of the rules can make things more comfortable.

1.) oh i agree with your general assessment i guess my issues is its rare i encounter people like that in real life, and thats including time in the so called "ghetto".

No dont get me wrong i have encountered people that talk in those stereotypical forms in every race im just wondering how the stereotype of black actually became black in some peoples minds.

2.) i get it but I think palin is a poor example, im sure there are some that wrote her off just based on accent/sayings but many more wrote her off because on the national stage she showed she was as dumb as a sack of bricks. But i also agree she isnt a dummy in general by any means.

3.) I agree with this in general in the right situations. (though the stereotype i found can be quickly broken by performance) Like i sad earlier how i talk to my friends would never be how i talk in an engineering evaluation meeting. Just like a work email vs personal email or text.

Hell just like something formal vs here, i break all type of rules here because its not critical to me.

 

[Hard Truth]

You have to admit that what you received criticism for is one of the reasons you're among the few who would make it past the first cut for many jobs. While some will look only at the statistics and call it a racist hiring strategy, it's judging on character and not skin color as MLK mentioned in his dream speech.

Judging by accent is judging on type and level of education and amount of exposure to American Standard English compared to exposure to the dialect. Not character. In many work situations the ability to speak Standard American English is important and an approprite criteria for hiring or promotion, but it is wrong to discriminate against someone with an accent if they use good grammar and proper pronunication (within a range). If someone speaks properly and can be easilly understood, but they have an accent, it is wrong to discriminate against them, and especially wrong if you discriminate against a black accent more than a Texas or British accent.

 

[lolabird]

I am a black dude and the most common form of racial hassle I get is from other blacks for what is in my opinion is the stupidest reason I can think of. Its mild and nothing that affects my life but I do find it both bizarre, troubling and somewhat offensive. Guess what's the reason. Hint, the following blacks also have this same exact "problem" although I've rarely to never heard them being criticized by blacks for this:

Jesse Jackson, Jr.
Alan Keyes
Lester Holt
Solodad O'Brien
Corey Booker
Oprah Winfrey
Barack Obama
Halle Berry
Bryant and Greg Gumbel
Don Lemon
Eric Holder
Ben Jealous
Deval Patrick
Fredricka Whitfield

Maybe I'm in good company. ??? :lol:

Are you a public figure?

 

[Dirt Racer]

BINGO! I don't sound distinctively "black" when I talk. This means I think I'm better than other blacks, "you've forgotten you're one of us," I'm not a true black person, I'm an embarrassment to my race, I'm pretending to be white, etc. etc. Its actually funny. Even though I'm in no way saying all or even most black people I know have expressed this criticism, it happens enough that I'm personally mildly put off by it.

But yeah, a lot of black people I know apparently have a problem with blacks who lack a distinctively black sounding accent and I'm in the club due to no fault of my own. I was raised by a school teacher who forbade me to speak in the dialect of the streets in what later became known as Ebonics and I moved around a little growing up, which tends to give some people a more general accent as opposed to having a tendency for a more regional accent such as a Southern Drawl, Mid Western or New England accent. In my case it seems to have also neutralized any distinctive ethnic sound as well.

I understand what you are saying. Living in the middle of a corn field isn't much better. Don't pay attention to people like that. They will always find something to complain about, no matter how small it is. It's not even worth the effort to try and figure out why this is such a hangup with some people.

If is a persons speech patterns are the worst they can come up with, you are doing just fine!

 

[iliveonramen]

I understand what you are saying. Living in the middle of a corn field isn't much better. Don't pay attention to people like that. They will always find something to complain about, no matter how small it is. It's not even worth the effort to try and figure out why this is such a hangup with some people.

If is a persons speech patterns are the worst they can come up with, you are doing just fine!

Yeah it's not much different to any group. Dialects are all about sub groups and identification with sub groups. It's dumb and archaic but it's still with us obviously.

 

[Smeagol]

I have known black people who consider themselves bilingual, they speak standard American English at work and with mixed groups and Black Neighborhood English (sorry, Ebonics sounds too silly) when with people who speak that way. One co-worker mentioned that he thought it was important that his kids know how and when to use Standard American English.

I have heard some quickly switch from one to another while on the phone at work, just like my Chinese co-worker switches from English to Cantonese. (although sometimes he mixes English words and phrases in with the Cantonese.) I can imagine that would be hard to do if you grew up in the suburbs and never learned Black Neighborhood English. Just tell the haters that you were disadvantaged and didn´t have the opportunity to learn that second language. (actually dialect)

Some of the people you mentioned still sound black to me, but in a style that is closer to Standard American English. There is a lot of middle ground between the two dialects.

Its interesting to also note the increase in whites speaking Black Neighborhood English these days (although many southerners were always pretty close) some because they lived in a largely black neighborhood or mixed family and some affect it after watching a bunch of rap videos.

I enjoy listening to different dialects, guessing people´s backgrounds and incorporating some of the cooler words, phrases and pronunciation into my speaking.

I my case most people would not just think I'm speaking in standard English but if they didn't see me or know me, would honestly think I'm white.

 

[Smeagol]

I would guess that envy and feeling threatened maybe a little betrayed are all present and are pretty common human reactions to a situation where you feel like someone who "should" conform to the group for reasons of solidarity is not. It's not okay and hopefully some will reflect on what is motivating them but that kind of self examination is pretty rare. I can see how some would think that you are identifying with the enemy. Not that that is okay just an effort to understand why they give you a hard time. Being a little more successful than those in your group always comes with a price tag, unfortunately.

I think tribalism is a big part of it. Apparently I've been assigned to the Black American tribe by them and I guess I'm not conforming to the mold to the degree they expect.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I have known black people who consider themselves bilingual, they speak standard American English at work and with mixed groups and Black Neighborhood English (sorry, Ebonics sounds too silly) when with people who speak that way. One co-worker mentioned that he thought it was important that his kids know how and when to use Standard American English.

I have heard some quickly switch from one to another while on the phone at work, just like my Chinese co-worker switches from English to Cantonese. (although sometimes he mixes English words and phrases in with the Cantonese.) I can imagine that would be hard to do if you grew up in the suburbs and never learned Black Neighborhood English. Just tell the haters that you were disadvantaged and didn´t have the opportunity to learn that second language. (actually dialect)

Some of the people you mentioned still sound black to me, but in a style that is closer to Standard American English. There is a lot of middle ground between the two dialects.

Its interesting to also note the increase in whites speaking Black Neighborhood English these days (although many southerners were always pretty close) some because they lived in a largely black neighborhood or mixed family and some affect it after watching a bunch of rap videos.

I enjoy listening to different dialects, guessing people´s backgrounds and incorporating some of the cooler words, phrases and pronunciation into my speaking.

There's actually some basis for this. I recall reading about a study done on black children who were found to be mentally "code switching" in school, between writing and speaking Standard American English and African Vernacular English (the official name of "Ebonics").

"Code switching" is normally associated with multilinguals. And that's the thing about AVE: it does actually have structure and grammar. It's not just SAE spoken badly. It's a different dialect all together. Some aspects of AVE actually draw from archaic English more than SAE does.

I do find it interesting, and unsurprising, that black people who don't use AVE get some flack for it. Language is such a fundamental part of being a human that we often draw our battle lines based on that. I've gotten some of the same flack that Tucker has about "big words," especially when I was a child.

My accent changed considerably in my years spent abroad, both from exposure to other types of English, and the demands of communicating with tons of people whose native language isn't the same as yours. Whether I was abroad or back home, people asked me where I was from. When I came back home for good, my friends where asking me why I was "talking like that" for the longest time. I actually remember one time where I sat down, and said the American "disoriented" to myself about 30 times, because I had switched to the British "disorientated" and could no longer say it the American way without tongue-tying myself. Even just now, I typed "disorientated" the first time I tried to spell it, and I've been back for over 3 years.

 

[opendebate]

I think tribalism is a big part of it. Apparently I've been assigned to the Black American tribe by them and I guess I'm not conforming to the mold to the degree they expect.

I am beginning to think it might be true that personal experience is really the only thing that will evolve an individual; that combined with a little genuine introspection. You could probably explain yourself to them until you pass out and without personal experience I imagine it would be almost impossible for most to understand. Can I ask you if it was a conscience choice to direct your life in this way or is it how you were raised?

 

[Mathematician]

Judging by accent is judging on type and level of education and amount of exposure to American Standard English compared to exposure to the dialect. Not character. In many work situations the ability to speak Standard American English is important and an approprite criteria for hiring or promotion, but it is wrong to discriminate against someone with an accent if they use good grammar and proper pronunication (within a range). If someone speaks properly and can be easilly understood, but they have an accent, it is wrong to discriminate against them, and especially wrong if you discriminate against a black accent more than a Texas or British accent.

Let me clarify that I was not talking about accent, but rather grammar and vocabulary. From Smeagol's mention of ebonics on post #20, I gather that the criticism and disrespect received for not sounding black has relatively little to do with accent and more to do with what is said. Smeagol can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Smeagol]

I am beginning to think it might be true that personal experience is really the only thing that will evolve an individual; that combined with a little genuine introspection. You could probably explain yourself to them until you pass out and without personal experience I imagine it would be almost impossible for most to understand. Can I ask you if it was a conscience choice to direct your life in this way or is it how you were raised?

I think the biggest factors on my lack of an ethnic accent were my mother being an educator who didn't allow me to use slang and being moving around as a kid. The main place I lived the locals had a very thick accent and there was no way I was going to let myself use that accent so I gravitated to just a general American accent. Maybe a little of both osmosis and choice.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

BINGO! I don't sound distinctively "black" when I talk. This means I think I'm better than other blacks, "you've forgotten you're one of us," I'm not a true black person, I'm an embarrassment to my race, I'm pretending to be white, etc. etc. Its actually funny. Even though I'm in no way saying all or even most black people I know have expressed this criticism, it happens enough that I'm personally mildly put off by it.

But yeah, a lot of black people I know apparently have a problem with blacks who lack a distinctively black sounding accent and I'm in the club due to no fault of my own. I was raised by a school teacher who forbade me to speak in the dialect of the streets in what later became known as Ebonics and I moved around a little growing up, which tends to give some people a more general accent as opposed to having a tendency for a more regional accent such as a Southern Drawl, Mid Western or New England accent. In my case it seems to have also neutralized any distinctive ethnic sound as well.

Next time any of these jokers tell you that, tell them "I talk like I have a job, and not like a thug in the ghetto".

There are no "black accents" or "white accents". There's modern American speech and then there's welfare recipient going nowhere.

 

[Smeagol]

Let me clarify that I was not talking about accent, but rather grammar and vocabulary. From Smeagol's mention of ebonics on post #20, I gather that the criticism and disrespect received for not sounding black has relatively little to do with accent and more to do with what is said. Smeagol can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not sure. TBO I think some judge me on grammar/vocabulary and possibly even cultural interests. I think with most its just not sounding like a typical black guy when I talk, which is to say pronunciation of words.

 

[Superfly]

Now Sméagol, you know I love ya'. I just have to say that when I read your post, this is the first thing I thought of. :lol: