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I'm a little less concerned about US global power

Craig234

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There are a lot of truths about US wrongdoing, US pursuit of hegemony and global power, US support of tyranny and corruption and so on; about the corruption of our massive military spending.

However.

If the alternative were a world of countries who were independent and free all getting a voice and cooperating for world peace, it'd be one thing.

But that's not the case. Instead, the alternative is a power vacuum, and there are powerful interests, including the soon to be #1 economy in the world, ready to fill that power vacuum with a far worse tyranny than US global power.

It would be a series of posts to even start to cover a lot about this, but to simplify:

I'm more in favor of the US preventing that vacuum, recognizing that US global power is the 'least evil'. That leaving a vacuum can not only cause tyranny for others, but ultimately threaten it for ourselves.

I'm all for admitting the wrongdoing of the US previously and opposing repeating that. Of fighting the corruption side of the issue.

But I'm feeling a lot more favorable toward the US - with those values - attempting to have more global power rather than seeing the rise of actually tyrannical powers.

It'd be nice if these issues were simple. They're not. The US has badly screw this up over and over. Perhaps the biggest example being Vietnam, when we wrongly claimed to be opposing communist aggression against the world.

IIRC, you know who really hates China, with a 10% approval rating? Their neighbor, Vietnam. You know what nation has the highest approval of the US, at 84%? Vietnam. There are reasons for this.

It's a hell of a challenge to pursue a powerful role for a world power without it being a corrupt role leading to tyranny. Rome were bastards. Britain were bastards. Alexander was a bastard. Need I say Genghis Khan was a bastard.

But the current Chinese government in many ways is Hitler and Stalin and Mao-level tyranny - short only the 'mass killing' events of the Holocaust and mass starvation. Many less powerful governments are tyrannical. Dictators are on the rise.

Democracy is in a global fight like it arguably hasn't been since WWII. And so it's important that democracy - loosely defined to mean more individual freedom over tyranny - defeats tyranny. And as much as that means things like military bases and arms sales and economic warfare, so be it. While doing the best we can to not allow that power to corrupt.

It's an open question how plausible a world of many independent countries is; an admirable goal. But if it's not plausible, better the more free alternative than tyranny, which likely can never be reversed again. The accident of US colonies against King George III with the help of France isn't going to be repeated.

China is using its power to marginalize other countries as much as possible - including putting pressure on the US in many ways. So you see US companies often catering to China's whims. While they are oppressing millions in China, with the world powerless to help them, pressuring countries to cut ties with Taiwan in preparation for overwhelming them, as they just did to Hong Kong, and so on. And that's just a little taste.

It's not so simple as isolationism being the solution because our history is flawed. We squandered the post-cold war period. But that doesn't change the threats the world is facing.
 
There are a lot of truths about US wrongdoing, US pursuit of hegemony and global power, US support of tyranny and corruption and so on; about the corruption of our massive military spending.

However.

If the alternative were a world of countries who were independent and free all getting a voice and cooperating for world peace, it'd be one thing.

But that's not the case. Instead, the alternative is a power vacuum, and there are powerful interests, including the soon to be #1 economy in the world, ready to fill that power vacuum with a far worse tyranny than US global power.

It would be a series of posts to even start to cover a lot about this, but to simplify:

I'm more in favor of the US preventing that vacuum, recognizing that US global power is the 'least evil'. That leaving a vacuum can not only cause tyranny for others, but ultimately threaten it for ourselves.

I'm all for admitting the wrongdoing of the US previously and opposing repeating that. Of fighting the corruption side of the issue.

But I'm feeling a lot more favorable toward the US - with those values - attempting to have more global power rather than seeing the rise of actually tyrannical powers.

It'd be nice if these issues were simple. They're not. The US has badly screw this up over and over. Perhaps the biggest example being Vietnam, when we wrongly claimed to be opposing communist aggression against the world.

IIRC, you know who really hates China, with a 10% approval rating? Their neighbor, Vietnam. You know what nation has the highest approval of the US, at 84%? Vietnam. There are reasons for this.

It's a hell of a challenge to pursue a powerful role for a world power without it being a corrupt role leading to tyranny. Rome were bastards. Britain were bastards. Alexander was a bastard. Need I say Genghis Khan was a bastard.

But the current Chinese government in many ways is Hitler and Stalin and Mao-level tyranny - short only the 'mass killing' events of the Holocaust and mass starvation. Many less powerful governments are tyrannical. Dictators are on the rise.

Democracy is in a global fight like it arguably hasn't been since WWII. And so it's important that democracy - loosely defined to mean more individual freedom over tyranny - defeats tyranny. And as much as that means things like military bases and arms sales and economic warfare, so be it. While doing the best we can to not allow that power to corrupt.

It's an open question how plausible a world of many independent countries is; an admirable goal. But if it's not plausible, better the more free alternative than tyranny, which likely can never be reversed again. The accident of US colonies against King George III with the help of France isn't going to be repeated.

China is using its power to marginalize other countries as much as possible - including putting pressure on the US in many ways. So you see US companies often catering to China's whims. While they are oppressing millions in China, with the world powerless to help them, pressuring countries to cut ties with Taiwan in preparation for overwhelming them, as they just did to Hong Kong, and so on. And that's just a little taste.

It's not so simple as isolationism being the solution because our history is flawed. We squandered the post-cold war period. But that doesn't change the threats the world is facing.
The democracies are too consumed with goofy pointless fighting over transgender and other crxp to fight tyranny. It's probably coming here eventually.
 
There are a lot of truths about US wrongdoing, US pursuit of hegemony and global power, US support of tyranny and corruption and so on; about the corruption of our massive military spending.

However.

If the alternative were a world of countries who were independent and free all getting a voice and cooperating for world peace, it'd be one thing.

But that's not the case. Instead, the alternative is a power vacuum, and there are powerful interests, including the soon to be #1 economy in the world, ready to fill that power vacuum with a far worse tyranny than US global power.

It would be a series of posts to even start to cover a lot about this, but to simplify:

I'm more in favor of the US preventing that vacuum, recognizing that US global power is the 'least evil'. That leaving a vacuum can not only cause tyranny for others, but ultimately threaten it for ourselves.

I'm all for admitting the wrongdoing of the US previously and opposing repeating that. Of fighting the corruption side of the issue.

But I'm feeling a lot more favorable toward the US - with those values - attempting to have more global power rather than seeing the rise of actually tyrannical powers.

It'd be nice if these issues were simple. They're not. The US has badly screw this up over and over. Perhaps the biggest example being Vietnam, when we wrongly claimed to be opposing communist aggression against the world.

IIRC, you know who really hates China, with a 10% approval rating? Their neighbor, Vietnam. You know what nation has the highest approval of the US, at 84%? Vietnam. There are reasons for this.

It's a hell of a challenge to pursue a powerful role for a world power without it being a corrupt role leading to tyranny. Rome were bastards. Britain were bastards. Alexander was a bastard. Need I say Genghis Khan was a bastard.

But the current Chinese government in many ways is Hitler and Stalin and Mao-level tyranny - short only the 'mass killing' events of the Holocaust and mass starvation. Many less powerful governments are tyrannical. Dictators are on the rise.

Democracy is in a global fight like it arguably hasn't been since WWII. And so it's important that democracy - loosely defined to mean more individual freedom over tyranny - defeats tyranny. And as much as that means things like military bases and arms sales and economic warfare, so be it. While doing the best we can to not allow that power to corrupt.

It's an open question how plausible a world of many independent countries is; an admirable goal. But if it's not plausible, better the more free alternative than tyranny, which likely can never be reversed again. The accident of US colonies against King George III with the help of France isn't going to be repeated.

China is using its power to marginalize other countries as much as possible - including putting pressure on the US in many ways. So you see US companies often catering to China's whims. While they are oppressing millions in China, with the world powerless to help them, pressuring countries to cut ties with Taiwan in preparation for overwhelming them, as they just did to Hong Kong, and so on. And that's just a little taste.

It's not so simple as isolationism being the solution because our history is flawed. We squandered the post-cold war period. But that doesn't change the threats the world is facing.
RE: "We squandered the post-cold war period".

You really said it all. When you recognize your enemies, have the potential to destroy them and do nothing rarely do you get rewarded. It would not surprise me one bit to see a new Russia / China defense agreement within the next couple of years.
 
RE: "We squandered the post-cold war period".

You really said it all. When you recognize your enemies, have the potential to destroy them and do nothing rarely do you get rewarded. It would not surprise me one bit to see a new Russia / China defense agreement within the next couple of years.
A lot of what I mean by that, is that after decades of promoting the alternative to communism as freedom and democracy, instead we didn't give a crap and even participated in the corruption of Russia when communism fell, leading to state assets being seized by corrupt figures and the development of a totally corrupt system leading to the kleptocracy of Putin, instead of any 'good government'.

So as I was just hearing about Russian public opinion, and why they support Putin, they look to that period when the USSR fell and say they've seen what the west offers and it's terrible. We blew how we didn't use that opportunity to help Russia do better, and we're paying the price as are Russians and their neighbors.
 
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