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Ill treatment may be as traumatic as torture

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Ill treatment may be as traumatic as torture
Broader definition of torture needed in light of study’s findings, experts say


Associated Press
March 5, 2007

Prisoners who endure poor or degrading treatment suffer much of the same long-term psychological distress as do captives who are tortured, suggests a study published Monday.

The study was based on interviews with victims of ill treatment and torture while imprisoned in the former Yugoslavia, and experts said the findings underscored the need for a broader definition of torture.

“What is the basis for the distinction between torture and other cruel and degrading treatment? Science should inform this debate,” the study’s lead author, Metin Basoglu of the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College in London, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. The study was published in the Archives of General Psychiatry.

Steve H. Miles of the University of Minnesota’s Center for Bioethics, who was not involved in the study, said the findings “show that the severity of long-lasting adverse mental effects is unrelated to whether the torture or degrading treatment is physical or psychological.”

“The wrongness of these inflicted harms is compounded by the fact that most abused prisoners, including those in the present war on terror, are innocent or ignorant of terrorist activities,” Miles said.

Defining torture
The Bush administration has said the U.S. uses legal interrogation techniques — not torture — to gain information that could head off terror attacks. It insists that the U.S. complies with the U.N. Convention Against Torture.

Yet Washington’s definition of torture, as interpreted by the U.S. Justice Department after reports of American abuses at Guantanamo Bay and in Iraq and Afghanistan surfaced, is fairly narrow.

It excludes mental pain and suffering created by acts that do not cause severe physical pain, such as blindfolding, hooding, forced nudity, isolation and deprivation of sleep or light, the researchers said, citing a Dec. 30, 2004, Justice Department memo. The document also contends that for an act to be considered torture, there must be proof that it inflicts “prolonged mental harm.”

“The implications of such a narrow definition of torture have raised serious concerns in the human rights community,” said the study. “These findings suggest that physical pain per se is not the most important determinant of traumatic stress in survivors of torture.”

Effects of mental trauma
The study involved interviews with 279 victims who suffered ill treatment and torture while imprisoned in the 1990s in the former Yugoslavia.

The researchers said they found that aggressive interrogation techniques, humiliating treatment, verbal abuse, threats against a captive’s family and being forced to watch an acquaintance being tortured produced much of the same long-term mental trauma as physical torture.

“Sham executions, witnessing torture of close ones, threats of rape, fondling of genitals and isolation were associated with at least as much if not more distress than some of the physical torture stressors,” they wrote.

Such experiences were just as likely as physical torture to lead to depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, the study said.

“Ill treatment during captivity ... does not seem to be substantially different from physical torture in terms of the severity of mental suffering they cause,” it concluded. “These procedures do amount to torture, thereby lending support to their prohibition by international law.”

>snip<

link


Your thoughts on this?

Here's another interesting article on the study, from the New York Times:
link
 
Ill treatment may be as traumatic as torture
Broader definition of torture needed in light of study’s findings, experts say

Associated Press
March 5, 2007

Prisoners who endure poor or degrading treatment suffer much of the same long-term psychological distress as do captives who are tortured, suggests a study published Monday.

The study was based on interviews with victims of ill treatment and torture while imprisoned in the former Yugoslavia, and experts said the findings underscored the need for a broader definition of torture.

“What is the basis for the distinction between torture and other cruel and degrading treatment? Science should inform this debate,” the study’s lead author, Metin Basoglu of the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College in London, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. The study was published in the Archives of General Psychiatry.

Steve H. Miles of the University of Minnesota’s Center for Bioethics, who was not involved in the study, said the findings “show that the severity of long-lasting adverse mental effects is unrelated to whether the torture or degrading treatment is physical or psychological.”

“The wrongness of these inflicted harms is compounded by the fact that most abused prisoners, including those in the present war on terror, are innocent or ignorant of terrorist activities,” Miles said.

Defining torture
The Bush administration has said the U.S. uses legal interrogation techniques — not torture — to gain information that could head off terror attacks. It insists that the U.S. complies with the U.N. Convention Against Torture.

Yet Washington’s definition of torture, as interpreted by the U.S. Justice Department after reports of American abuses at Guantanamo Bay and in Iraq and Afghanistan surfaced, is fairly narrow.

It excludes mental pain and suffering created by acts that do not cause severe physical pain, such as blindfolding, hooding, forced nudity, isolation and deprivation of sleep or light, the researchers said, citing a Dec. 30, 2004, Justice Department memo. The document also contends that for an act to be considered torture, there must be proof that it inflicts “prolonged mental harm.”

“The implications of such a narrow definition of torture have raised serious concerns in the human rights community,” said the study. “These findings suggest that physical pain per se is not the most important determinant of traumatic stress in survivors of torture.”

Effects of mental trauma
The study involved interviews with 279 victims who suffered ill treatment and torture while imprisoned in the 1990s in the former Yugoslavia.

The researchers said they found that aggressive interrogation techniques, humiliating treatment, verbal abuse, threats against a captive’s family and being forced to watch an acquaintance being tortured produced much of the same long-term mental trauma as physical torture.

“Sham executions, witnessing torture of close ones, threats of rape, fondling of genitals and isolation were associated with at least as much if not more distress than some of the physical torture stressors,” they wrote.

Such experiences were just as likely as physical torture to lead to depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, the study said.

“Ill treatment during captivity ... does not seem to be substantially different from physical torture in terms of the severity of mental suffering they cause,” it concluded. “These procedures do amount to torture, thereby lending support to their prohibition by international law.”

>snip<

link


Your thoughts on this?

Here's another interesting article on the study, from the New York Times:
link


So are we supposed to lavish the poor terrorists with hugs and kisses, change their diapers, wipe the dribble away from their bubblin' lips, and rub Vaseline all over their heinie's and tell them that they're special and different from everyone else's?
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
So are we supposed to lavish the poor terrorists with hugs and kisses, change their diapers, wipe the dribble away from their bubblin' lips, and rub Vaseline all over their heinie's and tell them that they're special and different from everyone else's?
Yeah, because if we don't torture them then the only other option is to hand out teddy bears to everyone. Must be nice to live in your fantacy world where everything is black and white.
 
Yeah, because if we don't torture them then the only other option is to hand out teddy bears to everyone. Must be nice to live in your fantacy world where everything is black and white.

And how else will you get information out of them? You know... information crucial to stop terrorist attacks and whatnot.
 
I tire of this subject. The Global Left continues to reach lower levels of depravity in their quest to create a nonesense politically correct world. We could close down Gitmo and put all the prisoners at the Hilton and we would be accused of abuse and torture because they smelled bacon at breakfast.
 
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BudLizard101 said:
And how else will you get information out of them? You know... information crucial to stop terrorist attacks and whatnot.
I'm open to anything that works, but torture doesn't.
 
GySgt said:
I tire of this subject. The Global Left continues to reach lower levels of depravity in their quest to create a nonesense politically correct world. We could close down Gitmo and put all the prisoners at the Hilton and we would be accused of abuse and torture because they smelled bacon at breakfast.
I tire of this subject too. The neocons could be amputating the limbs of suspected terrorists, but as soon as someone stands up against it they're labeled as a bleeding liberal and asked "how else should we get intelligence from them?" as if dismembering people is the only known way to gather intel.
 
I tire of this subject too. The neocons could be amputating the limbs of suspected terrorists, but as soon as someone stands up against it they're labeled as a bleeding liberal and asked "how else should we get intelligence from them?" as if dismembering people is the only known way to gather intel.

Who was dismembered?
 
Yeah, because if we don't torture them then the only other option is to hand out teddy bears to everyone.

Well according to this article that's the only alternative did you even read the article it's trying to say that treating people harshly is as bad as torture.

Must be nice to live in your fantacy world where everything is black and white.

Must be nice to live in your world where you don't ****ing have a clue what you're talking about, because you don't understand the premise of this thread.
 
GySgt said:
Who was dismembered?
Nobody, it was hypothetical. "The neocons could be..." You mentioned an extreme hypothetical scenario (even if we put all terrorist suspects up at the Hilton, it still wouldn't be good enough for the Global Left) and I countered with an extreme hypothetical scenario of my own (even if we were amputating terrorist suspects, it still would be ok to the neocons). See?

TOT said:
Well according to this article that's the only alternative
There isn't a single mention of teddy bears in the article. Are you seeing things?
 
Nobody, it was hypothetical. "The neocons could be..." You mentioned an extreme hypothetical scenario (even if we put all terrorist suspects up at the Hilton, it still wouldn't be good enough for the Global Left) and I countered with an extreme hypothetical scenario of my own (even if we were amputating terrorist suspects, it still would be ok to the neocons). See?

I do see. But actually, mine wasn't a hypothetical. The evolution of everything that has happened with Gitmo has been based on Global Left exaggerations. Now we are entertained by voices that wish "ill treatment" to count as torture as well.

Your exaggeration helped my post by clarifying the type of nonesense that has been going on.
 
I'm open to anything that works, but torture doesn't.

And how does torture not work exactly? Terrorist A knows when terrorist B will strike. Terrorist A gets nabbed and tortured for the information handing over terrorist B's plot. Crisis solved.

And tell me what you'd rather do to get info out of terrorists then torture them?
 
And how does torture not work exactly? Terrorist A knows when terrorist B will strike. Terrorist A gets nabbed and tortured for the information handing over terrorist B's plot. Crisis solve.

Thats not always true. Terrorists sometimes work in cells and might not know who is doing what and when so all torturing does is waste time in these cases at least. The only people who know real details are usually those men that send them out to kill people and those men are almost never caught. I gotta find an article on this brb.

How Do Terrorist "Cells" Work? - Dahlia Lithwick - Slate Magazine

Terrorism - Islamic Terrorist Network
 
BudLizard101 said:
And how does torture not work exactly? Terrorist A knows when terrorist B will strike. Terrorist A gets nabbed and tortured for the information handing over terrorist B's plot. Crisis solved.
That's well and good, assuming terrorist A will tell the truth. But the fact is terrorist A is more likely to lie just so the torture will stop. Just what we need too, more shady intelligence.

"Does torture really work? Most intelligence experts say no."

Does Torture Really Work? - Newsweek National News - MSNBC.com

"Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

"Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.
"

The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

BudLizard101 said:
And tell me what you'd rather do to get info out of terrorists then torture them?
Like I said, whatever works. This worked:

"In 1943, Budiansky explained, Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran had published a report, now considered a classic among military interrogators. Based on a study of efforts to get Japanese POWs to talk during World War II, it reached a surprising conclusion: “successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.” Despite dealing with hostile subjects and alien cultures, the interrogators Moran studied had been able to successfully extract information without torturing their prisoners."

Budiansky extracted an excerpt from the report, in which Moran outlined the type of rapport an interrogator should maintain with a prisoner:
Begin by asking him things about himself. Make him and his troubles the center of the stage, not you and your questions of war problems. If he is not wounded or tired out, you can ask him if he has been getting enough to eat… You can ask if he has had cigarettes, if he is being treated all right, etc. If he is wounded you have a rare chance. Begin to talk about his wounds. Ask if the doctor or corpsman has attended to him. Have him show you his wounds or burns. (They will like to do this!)


Torture and Terror
 
Sure, if you have months to create an intimate relationship with the terrorist, be nice and become friendly with him. I don't think a simple 'hey, are you okay?' will get him to tell you anything.

Read this: Does torture work? - By Fred Kaplan - Slate Magazine Gives several major examples of when torture worked and paid off big time.

Also: Does Torture Work? - The Debate A palestinian detainee said this: 'Three days without food and without sleep and you're eager to tell them anything.' I believe that goes along with torture. That was said by someone who was actually tortured, rather than these 'experts' that probably don't even have first hand experience at all.
 
Wow, I clicked on this thinking it was an article on Walter Reid...
 
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