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Ignorance Of The Law

Ignorance of the law shouldn't be an excuse....

But we have long since passed the point where no one can legitimately claim to KNOW the full law, so....

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So some state passes a law that says that spitting gets you 2 days in jail... you have no idea about it, spit and get locked up?

That should be OK?
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

What kind of idiot gets a state carry permit and thinks that it is a national, any state, permit?
 
What kind of idiot gets a state carry permit and thinks that it is a national, any state, permit?

The same kinds of idiots that get driver's licenses and think that it enables them to drive in all 50 states, not just the state they got it in.
 
Why no response here? Can I clarify something for you?





If nothing else, I hope I at least offered you advice on keeping yourself and family safe in an instance where you are being followed.
The martial arts student might've not made the smartest choice when he pulled over and got out of his vehicle to confront the driver of the pickup truck, you don't know what he might be carrying, the pickup truck driver might've pulled a gun on the martial arts student and shot him so in that regard the martial arts student is fortunate to be alive. I wouldn't've done what the martial arts student did in such a situation, I would've driven somewhere such as a police station as you mention, if I was being followed. That being said, although the martial arts student was not smart in the choice he made he should not get in trouble with the law.

Even if the martial arts student cut off the pickup truck on purpose, that does not justify the driver following him and charging at him. Lets say somebody cuts you off and you follow them and when they pull over and get out of their car you pull up behind them and charge at them and beat them up, even if they cut you off on purpose that would not justify you beating them up. In court, try saying you beat them up because they cut you off and see how that works out. It just so happens that in this case it was the other way around where it was the driver of the pickup truck who lost the fight. So it seems that if you pick a fight and lose that you won't get in trouble, you only get in trouble if you win a fight even if you didn't start it. That's not what I call justice.
 
The same kinds of idiots that get driver's licenses and think that it enables them to drive in all 50 states, not just the state they got it in.

You can drive in any state, and many other countries (for up to one year), with just you state drivers licence. So I have no idea what you are talking about. If you move to another state, or country, you have to get a new licence from that state or country within a certain amount of time, but at not point are you denied driving privileges in that other state or country if you follow the law and get a new licence.
 
You can drive in any state, and many other countries (for up to one year), with just you state drivers licence. So I have no idea what you are talking about. If you move to another state, or country, you have to get a new licence from that state or country within a certain amount of time, but at not point are you denied driving privileges in that other state or country if you follow the law and get a new licence.

So by that same token a person should be able to carry a firearm in any state, not just their home state, with a carry permit. If they were to move to another state than it would make sense that they would have to get a carry permit from that state within a certain amount of time, but somebody who has a carry permit from their home state who is visiting another state, if a driver's license from their home state allows them to drive in that state a carry permit from their home state should allow them to carry in that state.

As for other countries and whether or not and under what conditions they would even let you bring guns across their borders let alone carry them, that would depend on the country and what policies they have in place and is a topic for a different discussion. The point is, if a driver's license from your home state allows you to drive in all 50 states a carry permit from your home state should allow you to carry in all 50 states.
 
So by that same token a person should be able to carry a firearm in any state, not just their home state, with a carry permit. If they were to move to another state than it would make sense that they would have to get a carry permit from that state within a certain amount of time, but somebody who has a carry permit from their home state who is visiting another state, if a driver's license from their home state allows them to drive in that state a carry permit from their home state should allow them to carry in that state.

As for other countries and whether or not and under what conditions they would even let you bring guns across their borders let alone carry them, that would depend on the country and what policies they have in place and is a topic for a different discussion. The point is, if a driver's license from your home state allows you to drive in all 50 states a carry permit from your home state should allow you to carry in all 50 states.

I don't even own a gun and I know that you have to have a different gun carry permit for each state.

...and your drivers licence analogy was just horrible. Just admit it.
 
The martial arts student might've not made the smartest choice when he pulled over and got out of his vehicle to confront the driver of the pickup truck, you don't know what he might be carrying, the pickup truck driver might've pulled a gun on the martial arts student and shot him so in that regard the martial arts student is fortunate to be alive. I wouldn't've done what the martial arts student did in such a situation, I would've driven somewhere such as a police station as you mention, if I was being followed. That being said, although the martial arts student was not smart in the choice he made he should not get in trouble with the law.

Even if the martial arts student cut off the pickup truck on purpose, that does not justify the driver following him and charging at him. Lets say somebody cuts you off and you follow them and when they pull over and get out of their car you pull up behind them and charge at them and beat them up, even if they cut you off on purpose that would not justify you beating them up. In court, try saying you beat them up because they cut you off and see how that works out. It just so happens that in this case it was the other way around where it was the driver of the pickup truck who lost the fight. So it seems that if you pick a fight and lose that you won't get in trouble, you only get in trouble if you win a fight even if you didn't start it. That's not what I call justice.

Nobody ever said the other driver was justified in following him. We were examining the rationality and legal consequences of pulling over if you have identified the person driving behind you as a threat. If you do...you have made a decision to confront that person. It's an escalation and thus, you may now held legally accountable for some or all the consequences that follow. He did have choices. He was capable of making them...and he made his choice. He now has some accountability for what transpired.

Does that rise to the level of legal charges? Depends. On circumstance, on state, etc.

But he did have a safer choice...and he didnt choose it.
 
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I don't even own a gun and I know that you have to have a different gun carry permit for each state.

...and your drivers licence analogy was just horrible. Just admit it.
I also know that a permit from your home state does not mean you can carry in all 50 states, some states have reciprocity, some don't, it depends on the state where you got the permit and the state you're in.

The point is, some people might mistakingly assume that their permit allows them to carry in a certain state which it doesn't as in the example I mentioned in this thread. People make honest mistakes. They're not trying to break any laws, they're not trying to commit crimes, its not fair for them to get in trouble for making honest mistakes.
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

Sorry, don't buy it.

Every single CCW class I have taken (and many forums I participate in) all say the same thing over and over again.

Your CCW is only valid in the state you get it in. Only a few states recognize one from another state, so always behave when traveling that the state you are in prohibits it unless you know for a fact it is allowed.

I gave up my CCW when I left Texas and moved back to California. I knew it would not be accepted here, and I travel through so few states anymore that it was no longer applicable.
 
The point is, if a driver's license from your home state allows you to drive in all 50 states a carry permit from your home state should allow you to carry in all 50 states.

Ahhh, this comes up all to often in these debates.

Truth is, until 1960 this was not the case. Each state had their own rules and requirements over driving licenses, and would often prohibit a driver from one state to operate in another. But that was the year the Driver License Compact was formed. Which in 2001 was replaced by the Driver License Agreement.

We see this in everything. My wife is a nurse in California, but no other state will recognize this. That is because although a great many states belong to the Nursing Compact to recognize the licenses from other states, California refuses to join. So unless she wants to do everything all over again she can never practice in another state.

Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, all these and more professional fields require state licenses that other states may not recognize. Either by the state an individual goes to, or in response to their home state refusing to recognize the licenses of others.

I feel no more sorry for a CCW holder from Idaho caught in California than I do a Doctor from Florida caught practicing medicine in Oregon. They should be more than well aware that their license is only good in their home state and nowhere else.
 
Sorry, don't buy it.

Every single CCW class I have taken (and many forums I participate in) all say the same thing over and over again.

Your CCW is only valid in the state you get it in. Only a few states recognize one from another state, so always behave when traveling that the state you are in prohibits it unless you know for a fact it is allowed.

I gave up my CCW when I left Texas and moved back to California. I knew it would not be accepted here, and I travel through so few states anymore that it was no longer applicable.
The guy made an honest mistake, he wasn't trying to break any laws or commit any crimes. As I said in an earlier post he was able to get his original felony charge pled down to a misdemeanor since he had such a clean record to begin with but had the felony charge stuck he would've no doubt done prison time since usually a felony charge results in at least a year in prison if not longer. Running prisons is expensive, it costs roughly 60K a year per inmate to run a prison. Even without doing prison time the legal costs to charge somebody are expensive, costs that are paid for by you and me with our tax dollars. Prison and expensive legal procedures should be saved for those who really deserve it, people that rob, rape, murder, and so forth, not people who make honest mistakes such as this fellow who erroneously thought he could carry a loaded handgun in NJ with a NC carry permit.
 
Ahhh, this comes up all to often in these debates.

Truth is, until 1960 this was not the case. Each state had their own rules and requirements over driving licenses, and would often prohibit a driver from one state to operate in another. But that was the year the Driver License Compact was formed. Which in 2001 was replaced by the Driver License Agreement.

We see this in everything. My wife is a nurse in California, but no other state will recognize this. That is because although a great many states belong to the Nursing Compact to recognize the licenses from other states, California refuses to join. So unless she wants to do everything all over again she can never practice in another state.

Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, all these and more professional fields require state licenses that other states may not recognize. Either by the state an individual goes to, or in response to their home state refusing to recognize the licenses of others.

I feel no more sorry for a CCW holder from Idaho caught in California than I do a Doctor from Florida caught practicing medicine in Oregon. They should be more than well aware that their license is only good in their home state and nowhere else.
Just like the Driver's License Compact and Driver's License Agreement we should have the same thing for carry permits, National Reciprocity is what it would be called. Driving is a privilege, as is being a nurse, doctor, lawyer, or engineer. Bearing arms is not a privilege its a right as defined by the Constitution.
 
Just like the Driver's License Compact and Driver's License Agreement we should have the same thing for carry permits, National Reciprocity is what it would be called. Driving is a privilege, as is being a nurse, doctor, lawyer, or engineer. Bearing arms is not a privilege its a right as defined by the Constitution.

Yes, it is a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

Now show me where in the Constitution where it gives the right to CCW anywhere you want.

Limits on Constitutional Rights are well established and recognized. You have the right to Free Speech, you do not have the right to us libel, slander, or to yell "Fire" in a crowded place. You also can not use hateful or inciteful language, that is also an acceptable restriction on your rights.

Now I agree, there should be a National CCW Compact, you will never hear me say otherwise. But there is not one, so we can not simply go around pretending like there is.

And there never will be one. Because of states like California and New York, which will never allow that to happen.

I held a CCW from 2008-2012. And as I said, the thing they pounded into us constantly in the classes as well as on the official state paperwork we filled out is that it was ONLY valid in the state of Texas. And that other states may recognize it, but most do not. If you travel with your gun, check the laws of every state you will travel through.

This is why when in 2010 I went to visit my son in California, I packed away my gun before I left (even though I was driving through New Mexico and Arizona which recognized Texas CCW). The last thing I wanted to do was forget to put it away before I left Arizona and get pulled over for something. However, on the return trip the first time I got gas in Arizona I put it back on. Because I knew all the way home it was smooth sailing.

Do not do that, and you are an idiot.
 
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

YES of course

now with that said many crimes involve intent etc etc and reduced charges or fines can happen during investigation and that works for me
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.
you mean a dummy from North Carolina, how does one do that in this day and age

LEGALLY Yes he should have, what type of moron doesnt know the laws very per state, hell when i got my permit it was one of the first things they make sure they beat into you head. Anyway should they take it into consideration if his record is good and everything checks out, give him something minor . . especially if say it used to be legal in main and it no longer is etc yes . . . . . but that doesnt mean he doesnt get in trouble at all. Where does he live under a rock?


now with that saide i think the law is WRONG, all states should be open carry and my permit to carry should be valid nation wide like a drivers licences . .but I know its not
 
LEGALLY Yes he should have, what type of moron doesnt know the laws very per state, hell when i got my permit it was one of the first things they make sure they beat into you head.

The same here.

I can only imagine those who think otherwise have never actually gotten a CCW. Because they cover this over and over and over again. And in my opinion, anybody that can not pay attention to such a restriction should probably not even have a CCW.

No more than in Texas I think somebody who carries a CCW into a church, bar, government installation, or Carl's Junior should have that right revoked. Because over and over in that class they pounded us on where you could not carry your weapon. And that included Government facilities, churches, places that served alcohol, or where a sign was posted saying you could not have a gun on the premises.

If you can not follow the rules, you should not have a gun. No more than if you can not follow the rules of the road, you should not have a driver's license.
 
The same here.

I can only imagine those who think otherwise have never actually gotten a CCW. Because they cover this over and over and over again. And in my opinion, anybody that can not pay attention to such a restriction should probably not even have a CCW.

No more than in Texas I think somebody who carries a CCW into a church, bar, government installation, or Carl's Junior should have that right revoked. Because over and over in that class they pounded us on where you could not carry your weapon. And that included Government facilities, churches, places that served alcohol, or where a sign was posted saying you could not have a gun on the premises.

If you can not follow the rules, you should not have a gun. No more than if you can not follow the rules of the road, you should not have a driver's license.

Yep . . it was the most talked about thing when i got mine too. And like you said they also went over were not to cry and gave handouts and lists of websites where to get info if you were confused and didnt know.
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

Why were the police in his briefcase?
 
Why were the police in his briefcase?

He was pulled over for speeding. The officer asked him if he had any weapons. He told the officer about the handgun in the briefcase.
 
I also know that a permit from your home state does not mean you can carry in all 50 states, some states have reciprocity, some don't, it depends on the state where you got the permit and the state you're in.

The point is, some people might mistakingly assume that their permit allows them to carry in a certain state which it doesn't as in the example I mentioned in this thread. People make honest mistakes. They're not trying to break any laws, they're not trying to commit crimes, its not fair for them to get in trouble for making honest mistakes.

I understand that people might make an "honest" mistake... but in the case of carrying a gun... or pretty much any other thing that has a licence... and you don't understand you can't do it in another state makes you (plural) a moron.
 
I will give another example. This was also in NJ. A martial arts student was driving home and he accidentally cut off a pickup truck. The pickup truck started following him and when he was a couple blocks from his house its still following him. He decides he doesn't want the driver to know where he lives so he pulls over. The pickup truck pulls up behind him, this big guy gets out and comes running at him. The martial arts student sidesteps him, knees him in the stomach and hits him in the mouth with a ridge hand and knocks some of his teeth out.

As it turns out, the martial arts student gets in big trouble. He is slapped with a felony, he has to make two court appearances, he gets fined, sued, has to pay for the guy's teeth and would've been looking at prison time had he not had a lawyer in his second court appearance. Since he had a lawyer in his second court appearance he was able to avoid prison time but still has to pay a fine, he's still sued, and he still has to pay for the guy's teeth. He also still has a felony record which means that he loses some of his rights as an American citizen and he might never be able to hold down a job. He thought he was in the right. It was the driver of the pickup truck that came running at him first after all so he had every reason to believe he was justified in doing what he did. He wasn't trying to commit any crime, he was only defending himself, so he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

The biggest mistake was going to court with no lawyer in the first place. It sounds like he pleaded guilty in his arraignment and brought in a lawyer for sentencing.

On the other hand my experience with the law tells me that only two court appearances is highly unusual. This sounds like a made up hypothetical. So what exactly is the point that you are trying to make?
 
I understand that people might make an "honest" mistake... but in the case of carrying a gun... or pretty much any other thing that has a licence... and you don't understand you can't do it in another state makes you (plural) a moron.
Just because somebody is a moron doesn't mean they were deliberately trying to be a criminal or break the law.
 
Truth is, until 1960 this was not the case. Each state had their own rules and requirements over driving licenses, and would often prohibit a driver from one state to operate in another. But that was the year the Driver License Compact was formed.
I had never heard of this agreement. So I researched it. I found no citations of instances where an out-of-state driver was prohibited from operating a motor vehicle because they held no in-state license. Further, your characterization of the Driver License Compact appears somewhat flawed. The Compact is, so far as I've been able to find, an information-sharing agreement between the states to more effectively enforce traffic laws and to set standards for road markings and signage. There is a provision that mentions license reciprocity (at least in my state's statute enacting the Compact), but it is only in the context of issuance licenses in another state or reissuance in the original state.

There are states (Georgia, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Michigan, and Tennessee) that are not party to this Compact. Yet their licenses appear to be just as valid in other states, and other states' licenses appear to be just as valid in these states, as any other.

You'll need to provide some evidence to support your assertion that licenses were not honored out of state, and this Compact was the legislation that changed that practice.

Which in 2001 was replaced by the Driver License Agreement.
This Agreement has been ratified by exactly three states. Not much of a replacement.

My wife is a nurse in California, but no other state will recognize this. That is because although a great many states belong to the Nursing Compact to recognize the licenses from other states, California refuses to join. So unless she wants to do everything all over again she can never practice in another state.

Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, all these and more professional fields require state licenses that other states may not recognize. Either by the state an individual goes to, or in response to their home state refusing to recognize the licenses of others.

I feel no more sorry for a CCW holder from Idaho caught in California than I do a Doctor from Florida caught practicing medicine in Oregon. They should be more than well aware that their license is only good in their home state and nowhere else.
One cannot seriously make a comparison between the education and training required to be a certified engineer or nurse practitioner and that required to carry and properly use an implement of defense. Of course, in my opinion, unless a state can demonstrate that another state's licensing standards are so lax compared to other states, or so corrupted, that it cannot be trusted, any license issued by one state should be honored by another if that second state issues such a license. This is the fundamental purpose of the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution, and why same-sex marriage is effectively a nationwide right as opposed to a state-by-state patchwork quilt. Unless, of course, you can show me the Marriage License Compact to which all states are a party...
 
LEGALLY Yes he should have, what type of moron doesnt know the laws very per state, hell when i got my permit it was one of the first things they make sure they beat into you head.
That depends on where you got the permit and what you had to do to get it. In Nevada for instance to get a carry permit you do have to take a class and they do cover all the different places and ways in which you can carry legally including whether or not you can carry in other states with your Nevada permit, some states have reciprocity with Nevada and some don't and that's covered in the class. In Pennsylvania on the other hand you don't even need to take a class to get a permit. All you have to do to get a CCW in Pennsylvania is have two references, fill out a form, and pay a fee, and you get your permit provided you meet the requirements for getting a permit(you don't have a criminal history, you don't use illegal drugs, etc.) So, when you get a CCW in Pennsylvania you're not going to take a class that will talk about stuff such as reciprocity, or at least its not required.

In West Virginia they've got constitutional carry so you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed handgun in West Virginia. So, a West Virginia driver's license in essence is a carry permit. Obviously its not required in West Virginia to take any class that would cover issues such as reciprocity in other states since you don't even need to take any classes or get any permits, period, to be able to carry there. Somebody from West Virginia is not going to be knowledgeable about reciprocity in other states unless they decide to learn about it and as I pointed out they don't require you to learn about it in order to carry.

So whether or not reciprocity is pounded into your head, it really depends on where you got the permit and what you had to do to get it.
 
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