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Ignorance Of The Law

DebateChallenge

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Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?
 
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

Many laws require criminal intent, which should include knowing that an act was illegal. If one does not know that a particular species (or size, age or gender of that species) is not legal to fish/hunt for they can still be charged with that offense since it is simply possessing that animal which is illegal.

I was stopped by a game warden and asked for a "trout stamp" fishing license when I was dip netting for crawfish and minnows in a small stream (for use as bait in a nearby river). That stream was posted (a sign was over 400 feet away) in the opposite direction of my approach to it, but since I had no trout (or hooks/fishing poles) in my possession he did not ticket me. My fishing equipment consisted of an 18" X 24" piece of 1/4" mesh hardware cloth and a coffee can for bait storage - I did have a valid fishing license but it lacked a "trout stamp" certification.
 
Ignorance of the law shouldn't be an excuse....

But we have long since passed the point where no one can legitimately claim to KNOW the full law, so....

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There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.
 
Ignorance of the law shouldn't be an excuse....

But we have long since passed the point where no one can legitimately claim to KNOW the full law, so....

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Exactly. So its not fair for ignorance of the law to not be a justification.
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

I have had a similar experience while carrying on a motorcycle - the law states that the gun and/or ammo must be stored in a place within that vehicle which is inaccessible to the operator (typically the trunk). No such compartment existed on my motorcycle since the saddle bag containing the loaded magazines was accessible to the rider and/or passenger and the (unloaded handgun) was in my jacket pocket.
 
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

The dicta that ignorance of the law is no excuse prevents someone from claiming they were unaware something they did was patently harmful. "I didn't know killing someone I didn't like, or taking someone else's stuff because I wanted it was wrong."

For example, in post #2 above, a member was challenged about a valid fishing license. Arguably it would be well known to hunters and fishers that laws requiring licensing and regulations restricting what can and can't be hunted/fished exist. That there would be a possibility one can face heavy fines, and even imprisonment in some cases, if they violate them. That even common citizens should be aware the possibility exists, so caution and pro-active steps should be considered.

However, when talking about something that would not be common knowledge, and may in fact have only recently been determined illegal, could raise a valid "ignorance" question.

The problem lies in things someone might not think a problem at all. A good example is restrictions on what can and cannot be brought into the country when returning from a trip. There are entire books on such restrictions that even the experts have to consult, much less expect a common citizen to know. That is where I think a reasonable gray area exists. I am sure others in the Forum might have their own examples.
 
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Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

Yes.

Back in the olden days there weren’t so many laws, today, everyone of us breaks some obscure law or another. But the system of enforcement won’t work if law enforcement has to prove a person knew the deed was illegal.

So, you just assume you are guilty and hope the prosecutor has better things to do with his time.

There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.


That is a well known New Jersey scam and the downside to a permit: the cops know you have an out of state permit and see you as revenue, or a nice new shiny gun to confiscate to sell on the street.
 
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Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

Really
This is always a good excuse for people to do stupid things. I didn’t know my stupid actions were against the law.

What type of laws are you talking about?
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

The guy is stupid.
Not only are the laws different from state to state, they are different from county to county.
If you are going to own a gun, you have to be responsible enough to know the laws.
 
Really
This is always a good excuse for people to do stupid things. I didn’t know my stupid actions were against the law.

What type of laws are you talking about?
The kind of laws that a person honestly doesn't know they're breaking, such as the example I post about in post #4.
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.



A person who takes on the responsibility of possessing a loaded gun in a car takes on the accountability to know better than to think the other 51 states have CCW reciprocation law.
 
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

This is why people have their day in court, and you left way to much of the story out.

What did happen with this case, and how was it disposed of?

Ultimately it is up to the person to know what they can do, and when it comes to handguns (concealed carry, where it has to be stored, whatever else) we are talking about a subject that states continue to alter with no real uniformity across the union. It is not wise to take risks along these lines traveling state to state without knowing what they allow for.

The "ignorance of the law" in this case seems more like complacency.

Regardless we have a remedy for this argument, making it in front of a judge and let the chips fall where they may. To have some sort of an automatic out for "ignorance of the law" would cause all sorts of criminal justice system complications and fallout. It would be a criminal defense lawyers pipe dream, as the burden would fall on the state to prove someone knew something was against the law which further clouds criminal court process and proceedings.

And speaking of North Carolina, the application process for a concealed carry permit tells the applicant two things. That North Carolina does recognize permits issued in other states, and they have "reciprocity agreements with 36 other states." New Jersey is *not* one of those states, and the permit process makes it clear that it is up to the permit carrier to verify other states *before* carrying a weapon in a state outside of that reciprocity agreement.

In complete opposite of your opinion, in this case he should have gotten in trouble as the burden was on him to know where he could take his weapon. North Carolina even tried to warn him.

Your argument is a complete failure, even by North Carolina permit issuance conditions and warnings.
 
There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

Yes
A responsible gun owner knows his permit is not good in other states.
A gun owner should know that there is no national reciprocity for gun permits.
No excuse.

Just like the gun owner that forgot his handgun is in his carry on bag going through airport security. Really? You own a gun and you don’t know the location of your gun? No excuse, he should not be allowed to own a gun.
 
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?
I think there is another layer to your question that should be addressed which i will call complexity of the law.

What has happened over time is that we have added many laws to the books but they seldom delete arcane ones. Most people unknowingly break the law multiple times a day.

If we are going to expect people to know the law then there also needs to be a reasonable standard set that the law is simple enough for people to understand it. That currently does not exist.



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There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.
I seem to recall leftists being VERY certain that the Constitution required States to recognize each other's marriage licenses. Not sure why CCW doesn't count any more than a driver's license or marriage license

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There was a case of a man from North Carolina who was on a business trip to Maine. While on the trip he had a loaded handgun in a briefcase since he had a North Carolina carry permit. He was pulled over for speeding in New Jersey and got in big trouble for having a loaded handgun in the state of New Jersey. He honestly thought he was within the law since he did have a carry permit, he just didn't know his carry permit wasn't valid in NJ. So he shouldn't've gotten in trouble.

Wrong. Gun owners are supposed to know that every state has different gun laws and it's our responsibility to find them out first.

OTOH, I do believe your example is bull**** and shouldnt be law. But...it is.
 
A person who takes on the responsibility of possessing a loaded gun in a car takes on the accountability to know better than to think the other 51 states have CCW reciprocation law.

The other 49 states, we don't have 51 states.

And since states have reciprocity for driver's licenses there is no reason somebody wouldn't also assume they have them for CCW permits.
 
The other 49 states, we don't have 51 states.

And since states have reciprocity for driver's licenses there is no reason somebody wouldn't also assume they have them for CCW permits.



What was I thinking? I get hung up on that 52 now and then for who knows.
 
What was I thinking? I get hung up on that 52 now and then for who knows.

51 is often a consideration, because DC is often separate.
 
Honestly, with all of the silly laws being passed to make people feel better about themselves ignorance of the law will have to be a legal defense.

"Your honor, I didn't realize it was a crime to call an illegal alien and illegal alien."

"Did you say this out of hate?"

"Well, I hated the fact he was peeing on my lawn."
 
Yes, it is fair.

Largely due to a lot of stuff being common sense. And if you aren't a jerk or one of those sovereign citizen morons, depending on the infraction and you don't have any priors, the police will likely tell you the law and send you on your way without doing anything to you.

Say though, that you are traveling with a firearm or MJ with prescrip in the state you reside, it IS on YOU to know the laws of the areas you will be traveling through and to. You already know these items are hot-topics already and each state has different laws. SO, to claim ignorance to me is just plain stupid...or again, you happen to be a jerk or sovereign citizen moron looking to cause a problem for local law enforcement.
 
Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?
One premise rewards those who want to stay ignorant of the laws, regulations and ordinances that may inconveniently impact on his life. The other premise rewards those who learn about the laws, regulations and ordinances that may inconveniently impact on his life. Which do you think benefits an orderly and civil society?

I think the time to consider whether the conduct represents a knowing disregard of the law, the willful disobedience of the law, or a misunderstanding of the language or ignorance of the law, is either
1. Whether to bother to make a charge or cite the misdemeanor ( law enforcement)
1. in the decision to prosecute at all ( low level misdomeanors etc) by the DA's office
2. in the plea bargain process by the DA's office
3. As an element in the statutory definition of the charge ( petty larceny or grand larceny, Theft 1,2, or 3 etc) this one is a legislative call
4. During the sentencing recommendation( prosecutor) or the sentence itself (Judge or magistrate) . You can sentence one defendant to a fine, or a class, or some community service hours, the other to 30 days in jail, a hefty fine etc.
 
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Should a person get in trouble for breaking the law if they don't know better? Ignorance of the law will not get you off the hook, so we're told, but is that fair? What if a person honestly doesn't know better?

The questions you pose are meant to be dealt with by the jury in any criminal proceedings. Jury Nullification allows the conscience of the community to work properly.
 
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