If you watched both sides let’s have a discussion

[MrShangles]

You very clearly do not have the open mind you request of others. Any comment would be rejected if it did not agree with you and Trump, so no thanks.

I just ask for a discussion, I gave my thoughts of what I saw and heard. I didn’t ask what you thought of my opinion, what did you take from their address. This is a civil discussion, no name calling please.


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[JasperL]

It is clear how stubborn and full of hate she is. Policies that were voted for just a few years ago by their party are now the wrong thing to do because Trump is trying to actually get it done. As Trump pointed out it is the hard working people of this country that are being forced into poverty thanks to the hate by the democrats.

Why don't you point that finger at the GOP who couldn't get off their incompetent asses in the House and pass immigration measures this summer, and who killed e-verify in committee because their GOP donors didn't want it, and the employers who are hiring these people, and the GOP House and Senate who for the past two years didn't get anything done, despite a couple of opportunities to ram funding through using reconciliation that wouldn't have required a single Democratic vote. Oddly, we reached the crisis point AFTER the GOP had their rear ends handed to them in the November elections....

It's a little tiring that on this issue like every other issue, the problem if there is one is always with guys in suits who fly around in private jets and control Congress, and instead we point our fingers at the pawns, the little people, in this case immigrants. If illegal immigration was costing the GOP and Democratic donor class money, we'd 'solve' this problem in about a week.

 

[MrShangles]

Ok I get it, y’all don’t care about dead Americans, this country is dead.


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[KLATTU]

Have you seen Trump produce any evidence that a wall is a cost effect strategy to limit illegal immigration and drug smuggling?

If you haven't seen such evidence, why do you think spending $5b on a small portion of such a wall is a good idea?

WEll first off , I didn't say I supported it. I said DEmocrats won't fund it, and you can't blame them . They just got voted in partly because of their opposition to it.To cave would be political suicide and lets face it, that's the #1
concern for any politician.

But it's not such a cut and dried issue. There is at least some evidence that it would be cost effective that it would be cost effective.


June 2017 Congressional testimony of Brandon Judd, president of the National Border Patrol Council — the labor union that represents U.S. Border Patrol.

. . . as an agent who worked in two of the busiest sectors in the history of the Border Patrol, I can personally tell you how effective border barriers are. When I got to the Tucson sector, we had next to nothing by way of infrastructure, and I can confidently say that for every illegal border crosser that I apprehended, three got away. The building of barriers and large fences, a bipartisan effort, allowed agents in part to dictate where illegal crossings took place and doubled how effective I was able to be in apprehending illegal border crossers. As an agent who has extensive experience working with and without border barriers and as the person elected to represent rank-and-file Border Patrol agents, I can personally attest to how effective a wall, in strategic locations, will be.

. . . With a barrier, it’s estimated that all we need is one agent per three, four linear miles. Without a barrier, I need one agent per linear mile. So the cost effectiveness of a barrier in manpower is—it’s extremely successful.

In addition to the 353 miles of primary fencing that we already have, we believe that we need an additional 300 miles of primary fencing. This fencing should be strategically placed in areas such as Del Rio and Laredo, Texas and the Tohono O’odham Indian Reservation in Arizona.

In other words, don’t take the president’s word for it. Listen to the men and women who get up every morning and patrol the border.



. . . as an agent who worked in two of the busiest sectors in the history of the Border Patrol, I can personally tell you how effective border barriers are. When I got to the Tucson sector, we had next to nothing by way of infrastructure, and I can confidently say that for every illegal border crosser that I apprehended, three got away. The building of barriers and large fences, a bipartisan effort, allowed agents in part to dictate where illegal crossings took place and doubled how effective I was able to be in apprehending illegal border crossers. As an agent who has extensive experience working with and without border barriers and as the person elected to represent rank-and-file Border Patrol agents, I can personally attest to how effective a wall, in strategic locations, will be.

. . . With a barrier, it’s estimated that all we need is one agent per three, four linear miles. Without a barrier, I need one agent per linear mile. So the cost effectiveness of a barrier in manpower is—it’s extremely successful.

In addition to the 353 miles of primary fencing that we already have, we believe that we need an additional 300 miles of primary fencing. This fencing should be strategically placed in areas such as Del Rio and Laredo, Texas and the Tohono O’odham Indian Reservation in Arizona.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/make-the-argument-for-the-wall-and-stick-to-the-facts/

 

[JasperL]

The wall won't cut off the supply of drugs considering the DEA said most drugs come into this country via legal ports of entry.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/08/will-trumps-wall-stop-drug-smuggling/

Of course. Just common sense tell us that the cartels simply aren't going to run a supply route with a bunch of poor immigrants carrying $millions in product on their backs trying to sneak across the border. We also know that the cartels are good at building tunnels under the walls in populated areas and use those tunnels to get drugs across the border. The vast majority of the time they're loading up trucks and cars and hiding them among the 10s of thousands of vehicle crossings at ports of entry per DAY, or flying planes, or using boats, because that's how efficient supply chains work, and the cartels might traffic in illegal products but they're not stupid business people.

 

[MrShangles]

Since such a large part of the Trump case is based on illegal drugs coming into our country, it is deceitful to pretend the wall will solve that problem. All that I have seen says drugs are NOT being smuggled by souther border crossers that a wall is designed stop. They largely come in at legal ports of entry and the wall does nothing about that.

Schumer made that point last night.

Trump said add technology to catch drugs at border crossings last night.


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[MrShangles]

This. A thousand times. I keep posting something similar. A border wall with Mexico will not stop the influx of fentanyl and heroin and so forth. Those drugs are not coming into this country in the pockets of some Honduran jumping the border.

It doesn't help Trump's case when he tells what is an obvious lie.

What about that question he ask, about Americans being killed by illegals, he asked, what if it was your loved one? Nobody seams to want to talk about that, he didn’t blame everything on drugs. I was hoping democrats would have some ideas to fix that problem, but they didn’t even mention it.


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[ThoughtEx.]

He put out the facts.... He put out the facts... He put out the facts....

That's all I'm hearing. He put out the facts.

Facts like, the new trade deal will pay for the wall...

No it won't, that was a lie.

Facts like, this is what the people at the border say they want.

Who are these people? Border Patrol agents, oh boy, they aren't biased opinions. Hmm. If I say this, I get more money and power. If I play to the man baby he gives me attention.

We can move from 1 agent per mile to 1 agent per three miles, super efficient to catch the very few people that cross. Derp. God it's pathetic.

The fact is, Trump supporters keep repeating "He put out the facts" to get everyone to acknowledge that premise, that Trump used facts. That what he said is facts. Without any actual evidence, just Trump's word.

Trump's word is meaningless. There is no trust here, at all.

That was a televised campaign event. Nothing more.

As for the other two guys, who the **** cares, I make my own decisions about what Trump is or isn't. Nothing they say will ever change that.

In short, **** Trump supporters and their latest gambit. It's obvious to anyone. So please don't acknowledge anything they say as facts, ever. Without proof. Yes, I said Trump supporters you need to back your **** up. Now go ahead and cry fowl over being held to the same standards as anyone else.

****ing insane how disconnected from reality you people (and I mean you people in the most disrespectful way) are.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Finally, we see that "compromise" to you means simply saying no to Trump.

This isn’t about me. I’m stating facts about what has already happened and the positions each side is currently taking. You’re the one throwing around uninformed (you had to be educated on how much has already been allotted for border security) opinions.

 

[MrShangles]

Democrats, along with the majority of Americans, are not interested in Trump’s wall. Only Trump and his minority base are pushing for it on the grounds of it being a “national emergency”. It is not and the facts prove it. Schumer’s argument for opening the government was right. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are now suffering for no valid reason. If Trump actually gave a s**t about Americans he’d open the government and negotiate for appropriate border protection measures. And don’t say the Dem run Congress isn’t willing to provide funds for border security because facts don’t support that argument either.


Make an appointment with your local audiologist. You apparently have a hearing problem. The Dems have been willing and ready from day 1 to support smart border security measures. Just not Trump’s dumbazz wall.

But they never said .what those smart security measures are. They’ve been for border security for years, they’ve all voted for it and campaigned for it, so why can’t they just lay it out for us? Like, we are gonna us this then do this. I didn’t hear none of that last night.


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[tres borrachos]

What about that question he ask, about Americans being killed by illegals, he asked, what if it was your loved one? Nobody seams to want to talk about that, he didn’t blame everything on drugs. I was hoping democrats would have some ideas to fix that problem, but they didn’t even mention it.


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So you and presumably Trump fully sympathize with the people whose loved ones were killed by guns? And we should all want gun control out of respect for those people? That's a serious question.

You hope the Democrats had some ideas to fix which problem - the influx of drugs through legal ports of entry, which is where the DEA said most drugs come from in this country?

 

[MrShangles]

And this reality is key to the issue.

Trump used the wall as a huge applause getter during the campaign. We know that he was advised to use it as shorthand for immigration concerns with the right wing. So now he want to go back to his base and say he delivered on the promise.

The problem he has is simple one: his solution does not solve the problems that he maintains require his solution. And I know of no study which says they would. So Trump is screwed on this issue and its his own fault.

The dems would be foolish to let him off the hook. In fact, I think the Dems should double down and demand full hearings before both houses of Congress on the issue of illegal drugs coming into the country and border security problems and bring in a whole raft of experts and put Trumps wall solution to the test. Lets do that.

I’m totally for that, lay it all out and let’s fix the problem and stop talking about it.
And investigate how illegals are allowed to come here and take American lives.


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[MrShangles]

Because the entire wall issue is built on lies and because giving Trump the ability to leverage Federal workers for everything he wants can never be allowed to be a successful strategy.

Democrats used the same strategy of closing the government, let’s stay on topic of this discussion.


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[MrShangles]

That is not the impression I get of the Democratic position. They are against the Trump wall as the solution. I know of no position they have taken which says they are not against considering strategic fencing is locations that would benefit from it and have been carefully selected after the problem was studied.

Did they say that last night? They have all been for border security for years, how many studies do they need before they fix the problem?


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[tres borrachos]

Of course. Just common sense tell us that the cartels simply aren't going to run a supply route with a bunch of poor immigrants carrying $millions in product on their backs trying to sneak across the border. We also know that the cartels are good at building tunnels under the walls in populated areas and use those tunnels to get drugs across the border. The vast majority of the time they're loading up trucks and cars and hiding them among the 10s of thousands of vehicle crossings at ports of entry per DAY, or flying planes, or using boats, because that's how efficient supply chains work, and the cartels might traffic in illegal products but they're not stupid business people.

That's exactly what the DEA said.

Trump wants people to believe that Honduran refugees are carrying heroin in their pockets as they try to jump the border fence. FFS that is just patently ignorant.

I live in NH, which Trump called a "drug infested den" in 2017. The fentanyl and heroin is coming from China and the poppy fields run by Mexican cartels. Now how exactly is the big beautiful wall going to change that considering China isn't on the other side of the wall, and the Mexican cartels are smart (and rich) enough to ship their wares into this country via legal ports of entry?

 

[MrShangles]

I do not know what their criteria was. I do know what the criteria should be and it is
1- careful study to determine the problems
2- examination of solutions which would solve those problems

They’ve been for border security for years, how many studies do we need?


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[Cardinal]

Democrats used the same strategy of closing the government, let’s stay on topic of this discussion.


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If Democrats give him his wall they'll be rewarding policy based entirely on anti-truth. If they give in, they'll also relegate themselves to an inferior branch of government because Trump will know he can shut down government for literally anything because he'll know they'll cave to pressure every time. He conceivably get them to back off oversight and investigations as a price to pay for not shutting down government. If you think bringing up childish comments like "they did the same thing back in X year" is a legitimate response, then you simply don't understand the stakes involved from the Democratic perspective.

 

[ttwtt78640]

This isn’t about me. I’m stating facts about what has already happened and the positions each side is currently taking. You’re the one throwing around uninformed (you had to be educated on how much has already been allotted for border security) opinions.

It isn't about me either. Zero has been allocated for more physical barriers on the border. The 'budget' debate is now over how much, over zero, will be allocated for physical barrier border security.

 

[MrShangles]

The existence of a few far left loons, like the existence of a few far right loons, makes little difference since no significant immigration law enforcement policy changes are being proposed or accepted by the majority. The demorat leadership is making (offering?) the completely false argument that the debate is between adding "smart" border security measures and Trumps "dumb" physical barrier when, in fact, the debate is between adding some of the Great Wall Of Trump and doing nothing different at all.

I agree fully, but walls do work, if it saves one life wouldn’t it be worth it?


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[tecoyah]

I just ask for a discussion, I gave my thoughts of what I saw and heard. I didn’t ask what you thought of my opinion, what did you take from their address. This is a civil discussion, no name calling please.


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I called no names and feel what I heard from Trump was a repeat of what he has said for many months and what his opposition stated is also much the same. Stop paying congress and this will be resolved quickly....would also serve them right.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I agree fully, but walls do work, if it saves one life wouldn’t it be worth it?


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Not if more lives could be saved (or vastly improved) by taking other measures - specifically, increased interior enforcement of immigration law. I am less concerned with the hundreds that may slip through our lax border security than the millions that have already done so.

 

[haymarket]

That's what's so incredibly incompetent about Trump's approach. He's trying (or we can assume this) to win over people, and him insulting us with using drugs as a reason, or anecdotes about horrible crimes by 'illegals', isn't going to convince anyone. What might convince me are credible people presenting a case for 'the wall' starting with what the wall is, where it will go, why it's needed. Let them explain how the wall proposed can overcome the property rights issues that dogged Bush's efforts, and the water issues, and environmental issues. I can't find that anywhere. All I can find is Trump demanding his money to do....something!!!.... build a big f'ing WALL!!!... 1,000 MILES!!!! or else. My response to that is f you.

Agreed. But one cannot point to information that one does not have. And Trump only brought up this issue to use to placate a right wing base and had no real plan to do anything about it....... let alone the wise and responsible use of money for fencing or a wall.

 

[haymarket]

Trump said add technology to catch drugs at border crossings last night.


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And I support good solid technological efforts in this area.

But again, everything I hear and read says that most drugs are NOT coming in from people sneaking across the border that would be stopped by a wall.

 

[haymarket]

I’m totally for that, lay it all out and let’s fix the problem and stop talking about it.
And investigate how illegals are allowed to come here and take American lives.


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Let us do that. Glad we agree.

 

[haymarket]

They’ve been for border security for years, how many studies do we need?


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How about one which identifies exactly what the problem is and what exactly we can do about it?

In this case I think we cannot even agree on what the main problem specifically is. And I do NOT mean the vague and nebulous "border security issues" which means all things to all people while meaning nothing specifically.

Do you know what it is?