If you truly believed a Presidential Election was stolen, would Revolution/Insurrection be Justified?

[Eriech]

It was stolen. There is no doubt.

Insurection/revolution justified if and when it is the only recourse. It is incumbent on those conducting elections to ensure another theft is not POSSIBLE or revolution will be inevitable (a revolution predicted by our founders)

 

[swing_voter]

If the election was fraudulent, sure, you can stage an insurrection.

What kind of idiot thinks dozens of judges, from all over the country and all kinds of political persuasions, can be conned into saying the election was fair when it wasn't.

 

[JasperL]

The events of January 6, 2021 are what have spurred me to ask this question, what would be justified if a political party managed to do the seemingly-impossible? If you believed* that a political party of either persuasion connived to undermine our state and national electoral processes to the point where they were able to steal a Presidential election for their candidate, with the apparent collusion of the Courts, would a revolution against the illegitimately-elected (or indeed, unelected) government be justified? Especially if you believed that this political party might have the ability to cheat again in the future, and never be able to legitimately lose an election at the local, state and federal level. But this of course would be done with the understanding that such a revolution might lead to the irreversible breakdown of the country and a civil war that could cost the lives of untold thousands of fellow citizens. Would you nevertheless be driven to revolt?

WHAT I AM NOT ASKING: I am not asking to relitigate the 2020 Presidential Election. This is purely a philosophical discussion of what you think would be justified if you believed a Presidential election was stolen.

*When I say "belief," I mean that you have proof necessary to cause you to believe that the election was stolen.

I've said on several threads that if the crowd really believed in a vast conspiracy involving Democrats, Republicans, Iran, China, Venezuela, and the FBI, CIA and DOJ and the courts including SCOTUS, among others all conspired against Trump, then revolution is in fact justifiable. That's what was so reckless about what Trump did, with a huge assist from virtually the entire GOP, such as the 18 STATES that signed onto a lawsuit that would have thrown out the entire Presidential election.

So, yeah, to your question, it seems pretty obviously justified at some level, because if that kind of widespread conspiracy exists then the country is lost. Revolution - shooting war? Maybe not that but MASSIVE demonstrations including civil disobedience, such as occupying the Capitol, would be IMO.

 

[Antiwar]

It was stolen. There is no doubt.

Insurection/revolution justified if and when it is the only recourse. It is incumbent on those conducting elections to ensure another theft is not POSSIBLE or revolution will be inevitable (a revolution predicted by our founders)

Chuckle.

 

[bearpoker]

The events of January 6, 2021 are what have spurred me to ask this question, what would be justified if a political party managed to do the seemingly-impossible? If you believed* that a political party of either persuasion connived to undermine our state and national electoral processes to the point where they were able to steal a Presidential election for their candidate, with the apparent collusion of the Courts, would a revolution against the illegitimately-elected (or indeed, unelected) government be justified? Especially if you believed that this political party might have the ability to cheat again in the future, and never be able to legitimately lose an election at the local, state and federal level. But this of course would be done with the understanding that such a revolution might lead to the irreversible breakdown of the country and a civil war that could cost the lives of untold thousands of fellow citizens. Would you nevertheless be driven to revolt?

WHAT I AM NOT ASKING: I am not asking to relitigate the 2020 Presidential Election. This is purely a philosophical discussion of what you think would be justified if you believed a Presidential election was stolen.

*When I say "belief," I mean that you have proof necessary to cause you to believe that the election was stolen.

If you really truly believe that the election was stolen without overwhelming evidence and with the collusion of a hopelessly corrupt judiciary, then you need more help than I can give you. You are mentally ill and suffering a major psychotic break. You have my best wishes for your recovery. And no. Revolution is not justified

 

[Felis Leo]

If you really truly believe that the election was stolen without overwhelming evidence and with the collusion of a hopelessly corrupt judiciary, then you need more help than I can give you. You are mentally ill and suffering a major psychotic break. You have my best wishes for your recovery. And no. Revolution is not justified

Even if such evidence could be obtained that would convince you that the election was stolen with the collusion of a hopelessly corrupt judiciary?

 

[Antiwar]

2016 was stolen by Interstate Crosscheck. 2000 was stolen by the Supreme Court.

The Confederate College steals and weakens all kinds of votes.

Let me know when you're serious about fair elections and good representation.

 

[Decypher]

It was stolen. There is no doubt.

Insurection/revolution justified if and when it is the only recourse. It is incumbent on those conducting elections to ensure another theft is not POSSIBLE or revolution will be inevitable (a revolution predicted by our founders)

Is it March 3rd or 5th when Trump and the Quanan army are going to take back his rightful presidency?

 

[JMR]

I believe the election of 2000 was stolen, in the state of Florida, aided by the then governor and secretary of state, and finally the Supreme Court. Even so, I did not support a revolution. I believe Al Gore demonstrated the characteristics of a true Patriot, who stepped down from a fight rather than destroy a nation. Our now Former President 45 does not have that kind of character.
So therefore, I answered no.

 

[bearpoker]

OTHER

If there were actual proof I think the courts would step in and make things right. That didn't happen in 2020 because there wasn't any proof. Violent overthrow our government can never be the solution and I don't think it could ever happen

The OP posits the collusion of the courts.

 

[bearpoker]

If the election was fraudulent, sure, you can stage an insurrection.

What kind of idiot thinks dozens of judges, from all over the country and all kinds of political persuasions, can be conned into saying the election was fair when it wasn't.

See post #26

 

[phoenix2020]

I believe the election of 2000 was stolen, in the state of Florida, aided by the then governor and secretary of state, and finally the Supreme Court. Even so, I did not support a revolution. I believe Al Gore demonstrated the characteristics of a true Patriot, who stepped down from a fight rather than destroy a nation. Our now Former President 45 does not have that kind of character.
So therefore, I answered no.

Well said.

 

[JMR]

Well said.

Thank you. It amazes me what some Americans consider "patriotic" these days.

 

[vegas giants]

Even if such evidence could be obtained that would convince you that the election was stolen with the collusion of a hopelessly corrupt judiciary?

Independent countries that are our allies that could present evidence that would be believable

 

[Captain Adverse]

I am asking this question with the presumption that you have the proof you would need to truly believe it was stolen.

Sorry, but mere "belief" would not be sufficient.

I would have to have the PROOF that it was, in fact, "stolen" in order for me to consider "revolution/rebellion." Proof so incontrovertible that only someone who supported the "theft" would refuse to see it as true.

Then I would have to find that the system was not only unwilling to correct by proper channels, but that it would demand I accept the results without complaint.

In that case I would look to the Declaration of Independence as my guide and be willing to cooperate in "rebellion/revolution." (Note the difference in how it is viewed by the "winners" depends on if we win or lose.)

 

[Geoist]

The events of January 6, 2021 are what have spurred me to ask this question, what would be justified if a political party managed to do the seemingly-impossible? If you believed* that a political party of either persuasion connived to undermine our state and national electoral processes to the point where they were able to steal a Presidential election for their candidate, with the apparent collusion of the Courts, would a revolution against the illegitimately-elected (or indeed, unelected) government be justified? Especially if you believed that this political party might have the ability to cheat again in the future, and never be able to legitimately lose an election at the local, state and federal level. But this of course would be done with the understanding that such a revolution might lead to the irreversible breakdown of the country and a civil war that could cost the lives of untold thousands of fellow citizens. Would you nevertheless be driven to revolt?

WHAT I AM NOT ASKING: I am not asking to relitigate the 2020 Presidential Election. This is purely a philosophical discussion of what you think would be justified if you believed a Presidential election was stolen.

*When I say "belief," I mean that you have proof necessary to cause you to believe that the election was stolen.

I said 'other.' In that scenario I'd advocate for the (as peaceful as possible) secession and the dissolution of the USA.

 

[Cardinal]

The events of January 6, 2021 are what have spurred me to ask this question, what would be justified if a political party managed to do the seemingly-impossible? If you believed* that a political party of either persuasion connived to undermine our state and national electoral processes to the point where they were able to steal a Presidential election for their candidate, with the apparent collusion of the Courts, would a revolution against the illegitimately-elected (or indeed, unelected) government be justified? Especially if you believed that this political party might have the ability to cheat again in the future, and never be able to legitimately lose an election at the local, state and federal level. But this of course would be done with the understanding that such a revolution might lead to the irreversible breakdown of the country and a civil war that could cost the lives of untold thousands of fellow citizens. Would you nevertheless be driven to revolt?

WHAT I AM NOT ASKING: I am not asking to relitigate the 2020 Presidential Election. This is purely a philosophical discussion of what you think would be justified if you believed a Presidential election was stolen.

*When I say "belief," I mean that you have proof necessary to cause you to believe that the election was stolen.

Yes, of course.

 

[Helix]

i'm too busy and old to revolution. plus, i don't really like being in close proximity to that many people. i'll tell you what i will do, though. i'll sit around on message boards in my spare minutes and make fun of the whole thing in ways that make me laugh.

 

[phoenix2020]

Thank you. It amazes me what some Americans consider "patriotic" these days.

Somewhere along the way, "be the better man" evolved into "be the angriest man with the loudest bullhorn" - I suspect the confluence of growing partisanship, reality TV and social media, and reduced attention spans got us here.

That said, patriotism is alive and well--people are patriotic about their party and their ideology, not their country. Most Americans don't particularly care a great deal about America I suspect... they care about their preferred subset of it. That's why "America First" advocated by either party will immediately lose traction with the other one. It's a sad state of affairs when compared to say China, the vast majority of whose population is on the same page when it comes to what "China First" means.

Al Gore did the right thing for the benefit of the country. As did John McCain and Mitt Romney after him, and Hillary Clinton after them. It was only with Donald Trump did we finally arrive at a Presidential candidate unwilling to put the good of the overall country over the interests of his preferred subset of it.

 

[bearpoker]

Even if such evidence could be obtained that would convince you that the election was stolen with the collusion of a hopelessly corrupt judiciary?

Leo that's several bridges too far into hypothetical la la land for me. It's like the question about would it be okay to steal a loaf of bread because your family is starving and you live in a village populated exclusively by sociopaths who don't care if your family starves to death and won't help you. If an election was really stolen, there would be real evidence of it. It would be obvious to most people. Not just to some perceptive few. The country as a whole would cease to function. There wouldn't be a need for a violent revolution. The country would just stop. We simply wouldn't accept a president under those circumstances. It would be anarchy, pure and simple.

 

[ecofarm]

Who needs an excuse for an insurrection. If you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it. Of course you'll imagine something but that's kind of irrelevant. This isn't something that happens at the spur of the moment. No somewhat well adjusted person decides one day to break into the capitol. These nutbags had been stewing for years and decades.

Trying to compare them to an oppressed person fighting for freedom in some third world shithole is kind of offensive.

 

[Cardinal]

A lot of people in this thread having a tough time with how hypothetical scenarios work.

 

[Cardinal]

Who needs an excuse for an insurrection. If you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it. Of course you'll imagine something but that's kind of irrelevant. This isn't something that happens at the spur of the moment. No somewhat well adjusted person decides one day to break into the capitol. These nutbags had been stewing for years and decades.

Trying to compare them to an oppressed person fighting for freedom in some third world shithole is kind of offensive.

I'm reading the OP in a different way than perhaps other people are. I voted yes, which is not at all to say that what the insurrectionists did is forgivable since their standard of evidence is "Whatever trump told me" or "whatever the last thing that popped into my head was."

The way I read it is in how trump's incitement to violence was so meaningful, since the lie he, republican leaders and right wing media told their audience was so fantastically incendiary. And that's why it's such a miscarriage of justice that the insurrectionists are arrested while their leader gets off scott free.

 

[JMR]

Who needs an excuse for an insurrection. If you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it. Of course you'll imagine something but that's kind of irrelevant. This isn't something that happens at the spur of the moment. No somewhat well adjusted person decides one day to break into the capitol. These nutbags had been stewing for years and decades.

Trying to compare them to an oppressed person fighting for freedom in some third world shithole is kind of offensive.

I agree. The underlying motive is immaterial. The Jan 6th uprising was presaged by the event in Michigan, where "patriots" looked to execute the governor over the huge issue of mask wearing and bar closings.

 

[Jetboogieman]

Sorry, but I would have to have the PROOF that it was, in fact, "stolen" in order for me to consider "revolution/rebellion." Proof so incontrovertible that only someone who supported the "theft" would refuse to see it as true.

Then I would have to find that the system was not only unwilling to correct by proper channels, but that it would demand I accept the results without complaint.

And what about in your case where you have continued to lie about this election, with the proper channels tapped and the results accepted by everyone except those who refuse to see incontrovertible proof it wasn't stolen as true...

As you do...

It's a snake answer because you believe it was stolen but unwilling to put your money where your mouth is.