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If you have issues with a religion what do you focus on more?

Aunt Spiker

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Do you focus on their entire holy book (or portions of it) - breaking it down to scriptural issues when stating your reasons to be against them or to have issues with?

Or do you focus on how they conduct their selves and what the general beliefs are and how they might apply those beliefs onto other people outside of their religion?
 

SingleCellOrganism

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Do you focus on their entire holy book (or portions of it) - breaking it down to scriptural issues when stating your reasons to be against them or to have issues with?

Or do you focus on how they conduct their selves and what the general beliefs are and how they might apply those beliefs onto other people outside of their religion?

A combination is the only way to go, refute the passage and also take into account the behavior of the followers.

That said, humans suck, so naturally religious/non-religious people suck, so take the followers actions with a grain of salt. And really, same with scriptures, there are plenty of sub-100 IQ people out there who don't understand metaphor and the depth of philosophy.

I.E. the "6 thousand year earth" idea.
 

scourge99

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Do you focus on their entire holy book (or portions of it) - breaking it down to scriptural issues when stating your reasons to be against them or to have issues with?

Or do you focus on how they conduct their selves and what the general beliefs are and how they might apply those beliefs onto other people outside of their religion?
That depends.
Are you an atheist or theist?

Are you simply attempting to refute their claims?

Are you attempting to refute their claims AND provide an alternative explanation?

In what ways are you looking to present your arguments? Logically? emotionally? Satirically?

I wouldn't recommend trying to debate holy-books. Most holy-books are written such that they can be interpreted/reinterpreted to counter or support just about any argument or position.
 
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Aunt Spiker

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I was just asking a general "what's your approach or reasoning when discussing differences or taking a stance with other people on religious issues"

Some people refer *to* the scripture in debates and when taking issues with certain beliefs and so on.
Others refer to the actions and beliefs of that individual or group - because the actions sometimes differ from their religious book for various reasons.
 

molten_dragon

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My issues with organized religion all stem from the people who believe in/run those religions. I have no issues with their religious beliefs themselves. I don't agree with them, but my opinion is only that, my opinion. When neither of us can provide concrete proof that our beliefs are true or false, there's no basis for arguing about whose worldview is 'better'.
 

TacticalEvilDan

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Do you focus on their entire holy book (or portions of it) - breaking it down to scriptural issues when stating your reasons to be against them or to have issues with?

Or do you focus on how they conduct their selves and what the general beliefs are and how they might apply those beliefs onto other people outside of their religion?
I don't really do either.

I study their religious text in an effort to better understand their root of their beliefs, and to understand its adherents as people. Then I watch as they totally fail to adhere to most of what is in said text. I follow up with hysterical laughter as they attempt to rationalize said failure instead of just owning it.

I don't have an issue with religion per se. I have an issue with smug hypocrisy. Everything religious, beyond that, is a big long stack of things to get into an argument about.

TED,
Loves getting into arguments. :lol:
 

Gardener

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I focus on the language that reinforces the notion of the supremacy of the belief system, especially in regards to the attitudes expressed towards those who do not share it.
 

scourge99

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I was just asking a general "what's your approach or reasoning when discussing differences or taking a stance with other people on religious issues"

Some people refer *to* the scripture in debates and when taking issues with certain beliefs and so on.
Others refer to the actions and beliefs of that individual or group - because the actions sometimes differ from their religious book for various reasons.
1) Request that they clearly and unambiguously state their claims and positions.
2) Focus on what can be defended with reason and evidence.
3) Criticize the over reliance on opinion, speculation, testimony, and holy-book tales.
4) Request that they demonstrate that their claims are true, rather than merely presenting claims that are not rationally impossible.
 

joe six-pack

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If you don't believe in religion, I think your time and energy can be better spent in more substantial debates.

Why would you want to talk someone out of their religion, unless they were in a dangerous cult? Yes the Bible contradicts itself, yes religious doctrine can be absurd, yes religion has had a history of suppressing creative ideas and advances in science and knowledge. But modern day religious people, for the most part, are simply taking comfort in the thought of a purpose and reason for life. They feel less alone in a community of like-minded people. What does it matter if they don't even understand their own beliefs?

I've told Christians that Christs real name, in English, would have been Joshua, from the Hebrew name Yeshua. I've told Christians that the word "Christ" was derived from a Hebrew religious ritual involving oil called "Chrism" to spiritually purify people or objects, mostly conducted by High Priests. I've told Christians that Christ did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies, not even half of them. But in the end, it doesn't matter. Most Christians don't know important details about their religion, but they still find comfort and fulfillment in the basic message of neighborly love and non-violence. You could say the same about any religion.

Buddha was an Indian prince, not some fat Chinese guy. Muhammad was illiterate and married a Jew. Moses killed a slave driver in his youth. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
 

samsmart

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Do you focus on their entire holy book (or portions of it) - breaking it down to scriptural issues when stating your reasons to be against them or to have issues with?

Or do you focus on how they conduct their selves and what the general beliefs are and how they might apply those beliefs onto other people outside of their religion?
I have issues with religion. So I don't deal with religion anymore. Instead, I deal with science.

I would rather have things explained to me as best as humanity can understand them with our current knowledge than have things explained to me according to what ancient writings penned millenia ago thought based on their more limited understanding. And I know that science can't explain everything. But I'm okay with that.
 

scourge99

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If you don't believe in religion, I think your time and energy can be better spent in more substantial debates.
You are entitled to you opinion. Others may disagree.

Why would you want to talk someone out of their religion, unless they were in a dangerous cult?
This is an open debate forum. Members are not required to present their claims and beliefs.

However, if a member makes claims or statements, others have equal right to challenge them – to ask for evidence that they are true and accurate – to ask upon what information they are based – to ask who is responsible for the truth and accuracy of the claim / statement – to ask for reason why they should be believed – to present contradicting evidence or evidence of error.

If the maker of claims / statements is unable to substantiate what they say and satisfactorily answer challenges, others have the right to refuse to accept or to outright reject those claims / statements. Not everyone chooses to challenge statements or to question information provided. Children, the naïve, the gullible and the meek are prone to accept / believe what they are told, particularly by “authority figures”.

In honorable debate, participants are required to substantiate their claims and statements or to withdraw / retract them. Doing so does not imply that the person no longer believes they are true, but simply acknowledges that they have said something that they cannot substantiate – realizing that it is not admissible in debate wherein unsupported claims / statements are nothing more than opinion and cannot ethically be presented as truth or evidence.

Many fail to distinguish between what they believe and what is factual or supportable information. Challenges “keep them honest” (even though “ducking the issue” is relatively common – perhaps thinking that the tactic is unnoticed by readers).

In my experience, many who attempt (in debate or in person) to promote or defend religion are very prone to make unsupportable claims and statements – and to refuse to withdraw them when challenged or asked for evidence (and often become indignant, irate or downright hostile). They may think that obstinate refusal to “back down” from unsupportable claims is a tribute to their “faith” or their dedication to “god”; however, those who observe such action can rightfully conclude that doing so is an indication of an indefensible position based upon emotion and indoctrination rather than reason.


Yes the Bible contradicts itself, yes religious doctrine can be absurd, yes religion has had a history of suppressing creative ideas and advances in science and knowledge. But modern day religious people, for the most part, are simply taking comfort in the thought of a purpose and reason for life. They feel less alone in a community of like-minded people. What does it matter if they don't even understand their own beliefs?
Because beliefs inform our actions. Bad beliefs often result in bad actions.

Why can't everyone just have their own beliefs? - Iron Chariots Wiki
Everyone does have their own beliefs, but all beliefs are not equally valid nor do they equally reflect reality. An incorrect belief may occasionally be harmless, but it can also directly result in negative consequences (unnecessary guilt, bigotry, racism, oppression, strife, silencing of dissent, the death of the innocent, etc.)
Beliefs direct and guide our actions, and incorrect beliefs can lead to actions that increase harm, both for the individuals holding a particular belief and those around them. A perfect example of this is the preventable deaths of children at the hands of those who wait for a god to heal instead of taking their children to a doctor. If someone dies because their faith kept them from seeking medical treatment, it is tragic. It is far more so when an innocent child is lost due to their parent’s ignorance and their reliance on a belief that is not supported by logic, evidence or reason.
Another example of beliefs harming others is the oppression and hatred directed at homosexuals, atheists and others.
Teaching a child that they are a sinner, a worm that deserves eternal damnation, can do incredible harm to a child and can lead to unhealthy levels of guilt and repression. The belief that condoms are evil has helped increase the levels of STD’s and unwanted pregnancy all across the world. This is directly evidenced by the prevalence of HIV in Africa.
A belief or opinion that is based on lies, falsehoods or misunderstandings will have consequences. It is better that our beliefs and opinions reflect the world around us, and it is often necessary to change our beliefs as new evidence becomes available.


Now lets pause for a moment and let me concede that religion is not fully "evil". There are parts of religion that have been positive and contributed to the betterment of the world. Furthermore, for the most part, the average religious person does not commit atrocities or perform extremists activities.

Keep the good parts of religions: charity, community, social supports structures.

Get rid of the bad: faith, blasphemy, misogyny, homophobia.


I've told Christians that Christs real name, in English, would have been Joshua, from the Hebrew name Yeshua. I've told Christians that the word "Christ" was derived from a Hebrew religious ritual involving oil called "Chrism" to spiritually purify people or objects, mostly conducted by High Priests. I've told Christians that Christ did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies, not even half of them. But in the end, it doesn't matter. Most Christians don't know important details about their religion, but they still find comfort and fulfillment in the basic message of neighborly love and non-violence. You could say the same about any religion.

Buddha was an Indian prince, not some fat Chinese guy. Muhammad was illiterate and married a Jew. Moses killed a slave driver in his youth. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Despite the fact I believe some religious people do in fact believe in an enlightened form of Christianity compared to fundamentalists, i still find their claims to knowledge regarding the supernatural and divine both unwarranted and superfluous to what the evidence, reason, and reality dictate. They still are making decisions and choices based on poor or unwarranted beliefs.
 

joe six-pack

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Despite the fact I believe some religious people do in fact believe in an enlightened form of Christianity compared to fundamentalists, i still find their claims to knowledge regarding the supernatural and divine both unwarranted and superfluous to what the evidence, reason, and reality dictate. They still are making decisions and choices based on poor or unwarranted beliefs.
For the most part, I believe I support what you are saying and I'm on your side.

But a lot of people have "unwarranted beliefs" that are "poorly supported" and cause them to take illogical action. You could say the same thing about political beliefs you disagree with. But you can't simply talk people out of what they believe. You could say the same thing about atheism, since atheism attempts to prove a negative, which is logically impossible. I despise religion, but I also support the right to practice it unabridged by the Law. I'm a free speech guy.
 
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samsmart

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For the most part, I believe I support what you are saying and I'm on your side.

But a lot of people have "unwarranted beliefs" that are "poorly supported" and cause them to take illogical action. You could say the same thing about political beliefs you disagree with. But you can't simply talk people out of what they believe. You could say the same thing about atheism, since atheism attempts to prove a negative, which is logically impossible. I despise religion, but I also support the right to practice it unabridged by the Law. I'm a free speech guy.
I support others to practice their religion as well. However, I have the right to live my life free from their religious practices.
 

hallam

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I support others to practice their religion as well. However, I have the right to live my life free from their religious practices.
Not really. You have a right to disagree, protest, and debate religious people but your right to live your life free of religious beliefs and practices ends at your own private property.
 

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I support others to practice their religion as well. However, I have the right to live my life free from their religious practices.
Today two nice looking well dressed young men knocked on my door. I had a feeling they were Mormons. When they said they were and was I familiar with it? I said Yes! Two of my favorite guys are Mormons, Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney! But I'm not interested in organized religion, so have a nice day. I got away with only accepting a little card from them.
I can't stand somebody trying to push their religion on me. They didn't push and I didn't have to stand there and listen for twenty minutes this time.
 

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There's a huge difference between what a person believes as a matter of faith and what a group preaches and practices. Take Scientologists, for instance. I think what they actually believe is stupid, but I wouldn't care if a person chose to believe that crap and I would be genuinely happy for them if that crap improved their life. But if there was a Scientology island that refused to treat sick people with medicine for whatever stupid reason they have, I would have issues with that. Without power, religion is relatively harmless. With power, religion -- like any other binding factor in a group or culture -- can really screw things up.
 

Arcana XV

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Do you focus on their entire holy book (or portions of it) - breaking it down to scriptural issues when stating your reasons to be against them or to have issues with?

Or do you focus on how they conduct their selves and what the general beliefs are and how they might apply those beliefs onto other people outside of their religion?
Here's what it comes down to for me in a nutshell:

If religion leaves me alone, I won't bother it either. If religion starts messing with me or forcing its dogma on me in any way, it had better be ready to go to war.

Stay as far away from me as possible and you can believe in and do whatever the hell your imaginary friend tells you to do. Get anywhere near me with your bull**** and I'll hurt you.
 

samsmart

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Not really. You have a right to disagree, protest, and debate religious people but your right to live your life free of religious beliefs and practices ends at your own private property.
No - People's right to practice their religion ends at their own private property.
 

samsmart

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Today two nice looking well dressed young men knocked on my door. I had a feeling they were Mormons. When they said they were and was I familiar with it? I said Yes! Two of my favorite guys are Mormons, Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney! But I'm not interested in organized religion, so have a nice day. I got away with only accepting a little card from them.
I can't stand somebody trying to push their religion on me. They didn't push and I didn't have to stand there and listen for twenty minutes this time.
I think it should be illegal for people to go up to people's private property in order to solicit them for religious activities. I think that's nothing but trespassing, and if someone did that to me, I'd probably open the door but keep the screen door latched, and do it while wearing only my tighty-whities and a pair of socks while brandishing my shotgun and kindly ask them to leave me alone before I designate them as intruders on my private property and do something about it.

But in the Deep South, that's not such a strange fashion...
 

hallam

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I think it should be illegal for people to go up to people's private property in order to solicit them for religious activities. I think that's nothing but trespassing, and if someone did that to me, I'd probably open the door but keep the screen door latched, and do it while wearing only my tighty-whities and a pair of socks while brandishing my shotgun and kindly ask them to leave me alone before I designate them as intruders on my private property and do something about it.

But in the Deep South, that's not such a strange fashion...
Actually it is. You can have a sign on our property stating that there is no solicitation and you can call the cops on anyone who violates that request including missionaries. You don't even have to open the door.
 
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UtahBill

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An indication of people's faith/belief systems worth to them is how much they are willing to support it with their money and time.
People who insist on getting paid for part time service to their religion are in it for the money.
People who help others in need without insisting on repayment are christ like, even if not christian.
 

hallam

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No - People's right to practice their religion ends at their own private property.
Well considering, there are preachers on the streets and missioniares walking around handing out bibles, society is going to have to disagree with you. Now you are free to stand right beside them handing out a book stating why they are wrong. But in the US, these religious individuals have a right to be on that street preaching that message. So again, you really are not going to be free of this and not law or court is going to side with you should you want to sue to remove religion from public spaces. You can live freely on your own private property but if you leave that property you are not free to live life from their practices.
 

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I think it should be illegal for people to go up to people's private property in order to solicit them for religious activities. I think that's nothing but trespassing, and if someone did that to me, I'd probably open the door but keep the screen door latched, and do it while wearing only my tighty-whities and a pair of socks while brandishing my shotgun and kindly ask them to leave me alone before I designate them as intruders on my private property and do something about it.

But in the Deep South, that's not such a strange fashion...
People can simply put up a no solicitors sign and solve the problem. No need to ban them from what they consider to be worthwhile.
 
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