If you had a military draft, would you serve ?

[RaleBulgarian]

Well if he flew P-3s he must be unimpeachable

The facts he stated are unimpeachable.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The facts he stated are unimpeachable.

His fax might be, his opinions are not supported with much of anything.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

His fax might be, his opinions are not supported with much of anything.

How do you know that anything Korb said isn’t fact?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

How do you know that anything Korb said isn’t fact?

Well for starters there’s the claim that Bush’s motivation was to stay out of Vietnam, Korb is no basis for that other than opinion. Maybe Bush just really wanted to fly F-102s

You can only prove he got into an ANG unit. You can’t prove motivation. To that end though it’s a silly thing because someone had to do the National Guard. Also contrary to popular belief, many National guardsmen, especially in the ANG did go to Vietnam. In addition it’s really a retroactive idea that the National Guard was a safe assignment. This was in the Cold War, if war with the Soviet Union did start it is near guaranteed Bush would’ve been deployed either to Iceland or Europe, or if staying home would’ve been involved in protecting our Airspace from the Cuban and Soviets assigned in Cuba.

So the idea that this was a safe Cushy assignment to avoid Vietnam, has no proof, and in fact in the context of height of the Cold War was not a safe assignment. And again, literally 1 of every 4 F-102 airframes were lost in accidents as it was a difficult plane to fly.

Then there’s the issue of Bush’s “attendance dropping off”

Bush was flying near full time for four years in Texas, after moving to Alabama his attendance declined to weekend drills. He was discharged early because he wanted to leave and remember this is in 1972, at that time Bush’s air type, the F-102 was retired and there were too many pilots and not enough billets, pilots who wanted to leave were frequently discharged. Go ask any airline pilot for that era, in the 70s airlines were hiring military pilots all the time because these pilots were being discharged.

Same thing happened after World War Two, a relative of my father’s turned 18 in 1945, enlisted, and then for whatever reason he was given a weekend pas from boot camp and while on pass he heard that Japan surrendered so instead of reporting back for duty he literally hopped on the train home to Washington state and never told anyone in the military he was leaving. No one ever came for him for basically deserting. When the military is having to make massive cuts in personnel those who want to leave and usually cut loose with no fuss

So again you need to ask yourself why Korb isn’t telling the full story in context.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Well for starters there’s the claim that Bush’s motivation was to stay out of Vietnam, Korb is no basis for that other than opinion. Maybe Bush just really wanted to fly F-102s

You can only prove he got into an ANG unit. You can’t prove motivation. To that end though it’s a silly thing because someone had to do the National Guard. Also contrary to popular belief, many National guardsmen, especially in the ANG did go to Vietnam. In addition it’s really a retroactive idea that the National Guard was a safe assignment. This was in the Cold War, if war with the Soviet Union did start it is near guaranteed Bush would’ve been deployed either to Iceland or Europe, or if staying home would’ve been involved in protecting our Airspace from the Cuban and Soviets assigned in Cuba.

So the idea that this was a safe Cushy assignment to avoid Vietnam, has no proof, and in fact in the context of height of the Cold War was not a safe assignment. And again, literally 1 of every 4 F-102 airframes were lost in accidents as it was a difficult plane to fly.

Then there’s the issue of Bush’s “attendance dropping off”

Bush was flying near full time for four years in Texas, after moving to Alabama his attendance declined to weekend drills. He was discharged early because he wanted to leave and remember this is in 1972, at that time Bush’s air type, the F-102 was retired and there were too many pilots and not enough billets, pilots who wanted to leave were frequently discharged. Go ask any airline pilot for that era, in the 70s airlines were hiring military pilots all the time because these pilots were being discharged.

Same thing happened after World War Two, a relative of my father’s turned 18 in 1945, enlisted, and then for whatever reason he was given a weekend pas from boot camp and while on pass he heard that Japan surrendered so instead of reporting back for duty he literally hopped on the train home to Washington state and never told anyone in the military he was leaving. No one ever came for him for basically deserting. When the military is having to make massive cuts in personnel those who want to leave and usually cut loose with no fuss

So again you need to ask yourself why Korb isn’t telling the full story in context.

If W wanted to serve in Vietnam, he could have taken advantage of his father’s influence to ensure that. He didn’t though.

Instead, W, with an arrest record and a score of 25% on the pilot aptitude test (the lowest acceptable grade) benefitted from his family’s connections, including the personal intervention by Texas Republican State House Speaker and future Texas Lt. Governor, Ben Barnes, who asked for, and received help from Texas Air National Guard, Brig. Gen. James Rose, granting Bush entry into the Guard ahead of other more qualified applicants.

As for your false assertion that Bush may have been sent to Vietnam like other ANG units had previously been, it was common knowledge at the time that ANG units were much less likely to be deployed than active duty units. On top of that, by the time W had completed flight training no more ANG units were deployed.

The facts of W’s avoidance to serve in Vietnam are clear.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

If W wanted to serve in Vietnam, he could have taken advantage of his father’s influence to ensure that. He didn’t though.

Instead, W, with an arrest record and a score of 25% on the pilot aptitude test (the lowest acceptable grade) benefitted from his family’s connections, including the personal intervention by Texas Republican State House Speaker and future Texas Lt. Governor, Ben Barnes, who asked for, and received help from Texas Air National Guard, Brig. Gen. James Rose, granting Bush entry into the Guard ahead of other more qualified applicants.

Ok, all you’re proving is that political connections are helpful. And you’re still admitting that he met the standards, whether or not other people would’ve been admitted, he still passed. If you want we can discuss Biden getting his 40 year old son Hunter waivers to get into the navy and how well that worked out.

As for your false assertion that Bush may have been sent to Vietnam like other ANG units had previously been, it was common knowledge at the time that ANG units were much less likely to be deployed than active duty units.

But not guaranteed. And plus it was never guaranteed W wouldn’t have seen combat, remember Cold War is ongoing and people in that era would have not considered war with the SSSR impossible

On top of that, by the time W had completed flight training no more ANG units were deployed.

Not in his control

The facts of W’s avoidance to serve in Vietnam are clear.

He joined a military service and was a good pilot and honorably discharged. I see no reason to fault him for that. I am not a fan of Bush and think his policies as president were harmful to America and the world, but that’s on president Bush and not Lieutenant Bush

 

[vegas giants]

Ok, all you’re proving is that political connections are helpful. And you’re still admitting that he met the standards, whether or not other people would’ve been admitted, he still passed. If you want we can discuss Biden getting his 40 year old son Hunter waivers to get into the navy and how well that worked out.

But not guaranteed. And plus it was never guaranteed W wouldn’t have seen combat, remember Cold War is ongoing and people in that era would have not considered war with the SSSR impossible

Not in his control

He joined a military service and was a good pilot and honorably discharged. I see no reason to fault him for that. I am not a fan of Bush and think his policies as president were harmful to America and the world, but that’s on president Bush and not Lieutenant Bush

John McCain's father was a admiral. He could have never seen action if he wanted


He was a real American hero unlike Clinton, bush jr, obama, trump and biden

 

[EMNofSeattle]

John McCain's father was a admiral. He could have never seen action if he wanted

Fair enough, although there’s allegations his father is the reason he wasn’t removed from flight status after many accidents. Bush was objectively a better pilot

He was a real American hero unlike Clinton, bush jr, obama, trump and biden

I’m not castigating McCains naval service, but his political career was bad for America just like W

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Ok, all you’re proving is that political connections are helpful. And you’re still admitting that he met the standards, whether or not other people would’ve been admitted, he still passed.

Wrong. I have disproved your original false assertion;

So the narrative of Bush avoiding Vietnam and shirking military duties is largely a ficticous account.

All known facts prove W deliberately avoided service in Vietnam.

And plus it was never guaranteed W wouldn’t have seen combat,

The odds were much better to avoid combat service by joining the Texas ANG. W’s odds on wager paid off.

He joined a military service and was a good pilot

“Good pilots” don’t lose their flight status for failing to complete the required annual physical.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Wrong. I have disproved your original false assertion;

No, you didn’t. Your own source says he met standards

All known facts prove W deliberately avoided service in Vietnam.

No, that’s an opinion

The odds were much better to avoid combat service by joining the Texas ANG. W’s odds on wager paid off.

Sure, but that’s only in hindsight

“Good pilots” don’t lose their flight status for failing to complete the required annual physical.

Again, this was after the US Vietnam drawdown and many pilots were being let go from the Air Force. Bush was removed from flight status than discharged because the air force had more pilots than they wanted

 

[What if...?]

Been there, done that. Lottery #94 and in 1972 they drafted to #95.

They sent me a draft notice. I was 6 I think. My mom took me down and said you sent my son a draft notice but I think there’s been a mistake. The guy at the counter demanded to know where I was, at which point my mom pointed to me, standing at the counter where he couldn’t see me. Once they saw my birth certificate they figured out they had sent me a notice meant for someone else with the same name but the birth date they had was wrong.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

No, you didn’t. Your own source says he met standards

I never claimed that W didn’t meet standards.

So the narrative of Bush avoiding Vietnam and shirking military duties is largely a ficticous account.

I disproved your ridiculous claim that W didn’t deliberately avoid service in Vietnam.

Try to remain on point.

No, that’s an opinion

Backed by significant facts.

Sure, but that’s only in hindsight

It was a calculated decision, with the odds heavily on his side.

Again, this was after the US Vietnam drawdown and many pilots were being let go from the Air Force. Bush was removed from flight status than discharged because the air force had more pilots than they wanted

False. The record is irrefutable that W was removed from flight status specifically because he failed to complete the required annual physical.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I never claimed that W didn’t meet standards.

That’s what you were implying by bringing up a claim he scored low on the exams.

I disproved your ridiculous claim that W didn’t deliberately avoid service in Vietnam.

No you didn’t.

Try to remain on point.

Backed by significant facts.

Your conclusion is not a fact however

It was a calculated decision, with the odds heavily on his side.

But only in hindsite

False. The record is irrefutable that W was removed from flight status specifically because he failed to complete the required annual physical.

You say he failed to complete it, but reading between the lines the reason was clear, his squadron in Alabama didn’t have work for him and they didn’t care if he completed it or not.

Just like my father’s grand uncle deserted from the army on V-J day and lived the rest of his life never hearing from the Army about it.

 

[vegas giants]

Fair enough, although there’s allegations his father is the reason he wasn’t removed from flight status after many accidents. Bush was objectively a better pilot

I’m not castigating McCains naval service, but his political career was bad for America just like W

Bush objectively was NOT a better pilot.

McCain was a fulltime naval combat aviator who was carrier qualified.

Bush was a weekend warrior

Politics aside there is no comparison

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Bush was objectively a better pilot

^^ An objectively ridiculous assertion.

John McCain - Recipient -

John McCain, III, represented a third generation of Naval Academy graduates when he graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, Class of 1958....

valor.militarytimes.com

W had nothing on McCain.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

That’s what you were implying by bringing up a claim he scored low on the exams.

You inferred wrongly.

Your conclusion is not a fact however

It is. That you disagree is irrelevant.

But only in hindsite

It wasn’t “hindsite” at the time, which is the point.

You say he failed to complete it, but reading between the lines the reason was clear, his squadron in Alabama didn’t have work for him and they didn’t care if he completed it or not.

^^ Clearly bull shit on your part. W knew of his responsibility and failed to comply.


* Don’t bother including superfluous crap, trying obfuscate/deflect. I won’t be pulled down a rabbit hole.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

^^ An objectively ridiculous assertion.

View attachment 67379698
View attachment 67379703

John McCain - Recipient -

John McCain, III, represented a third generation of Naval Academy graduates when he graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, Class of 1958....

valor.militarytimes.com

W had nothing on McCain.

Except a better safety record on a more dangerous aircraft

 

[Trippy Trekker]

I volunteered back a few years ago and just now am getting out. I suppose I could do it again if need be.

@Perotista and @MSgt -

These two members with NCO backgrounds blow me away with the value they add to this forum!

Over the years, your grasp and keen interest of military history caught my attention. I expect good things to happen to you when you transition to a Civilian career.

How long did you enlist for? What rank do you discharge at?

 

[vegas giants]

Except a better safety record on a more dangerous aircraft

In far far far safer conditions.

Bush was a hack pilot

 

[Jredbaron96]

How long did you enlist for? What rank do you discharge at?

When my contract ends I'll be just under eight. I'll leave a Corporal. I should have made Sergeant at some point, I gave up trying to get promoted to finish my degree.

 

[Jredbaron96]

There are a lot of claims about Trump having a medical deferment. Now that Biden is the President, I do not hear a lot of belly aching about Joe Biden's 5 student draft deferments and then after that being given a medical deferment for allegedly having asthma as a teenager.

Trump could have come out and said he straight up made up his condition to get out of Vietnam and I would not have judged him for it...

...had he not run his mouth and insulted an actual veteran for his service.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Born in 1956, the last birth year to receive a lottery number, I drew #221. Last man inducted entered the U.S. Army June 30, 1973. I turned 18 in 1974.

No way no how would I have reported to duty! As a teenager, I strongly opposed the Vietnam War.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Trump could have come out and said he straight up made up his condition to get out of Vietnam and I would not have judged him for it...

I mean you’re claiming he made up a condition, but you have no evidence of that. So you’re demanding you be told the story you want to hear.

...had he not run his mouth and insulted an actual veteran for his service.

No he didn’t.

 

[vegas giants]

I mean you’re claiming he made up a condition, but you have no evidence of that. So you’re demanding you be told the story you want to hear.

No he didn’t.

Yeah he did

 

[Jredbaron96]

I mean you’re claiming he made up a condition, but you have no evidence of that. So you’re demanding you be told the story you want to hear.

If you read more carefully you'll see I'm saying that as a hypothetical

No he didn’t.

Yes he did.