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If you defend foreign outsourcing you are guilty of defending this...

Zalatix

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It is impossible to have foreign outsourcing unless you have working conditions like this in the country where you're sending jobs to.

Fixing the problems pointed out below means raising the cost of production and thus the cost of their cheap exports. Preventing fires like the one that killed those workers in Bangladesh means raising the cost of goods.

Human rights for workers abroad means more expensive imports for Americans and Conservatives hate that on a cellular level. Capitalism inherently pushes for the cheapest labor even at the expense of human health and life. The only way you have safe workplaces is with government intervention... aka "socialism".

Which is funny, since you never see Conservatives rushing to flee from American workplaces, which fall under the evil OSHA. And most Conservatives, like people in general, are not rich.

Pictures From Inside Apple's Chinese iPhone Factories - Business Insider

Apple said today that it will, once again, audit working conditions inside the Pegatron factories in China that it uses to assemble iPhones, iMacs and the new, upcoming cheap iPhone, the iPhone 5C.

The statement came after China Labor Watch produced a detailed report and a video of working conditions inside some of Apple's Chinese factories.

The video shows work rules that ban tattoos, died hair, short people and certain ethnic groups from the factories.

It also shows exhausted workers sleeping on the floor, using buckets to wash in, squalid communal showers rigged in parking garages, and a disgusting, unclean urinal.

The film also shows that Apple's contract workers are all very young — CLW alleges there is a ban on workers over 35. You can read the full CLW report here. What follows are photos from the accompanying YouTube video, taken undercover inside Apple's China facilities...
 

AliHajiSheik

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Don't these other countries have freely elected governments to protect their workers? Just asking.
 

clownboy

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Other than a whole bunch of democrats, who supports "foreign outsourcing" (offshoring)?
 

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I don't defend foreign outsourcing. I support a protectionist policy here, and am willing to pay the extra price for keeping jobs here in the US.
 

Utility Man

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Don't these other countries have freely elected governments to protect their workers? Just asking.
The ones he talks about are in China, a socialist country.

Funny, he tries to demonize capitalism by pointing out how bad it is in socialist and former socialist countries where instead of running away from such jobs, they consider them a blessing and a godsend. I guess we should be thankful that socialism is so successful that they have given us such a labor pool the is willing to work under such conditions.
 

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It is impossible to have foreign outsourcing unless you have working conditions like this in the country where you're sending jobs to.
That's false. It's also absurd even if we took it to mean that one should only be allowed to outsource if we have working conditions like where you're sending the jobs to.

A country that is 100 years behind and at an amazing level of poverty, has no practical way of adopting our modern working conditions...conditions that fit our day and time and culture and GDP. That would be like forcing people who want welfare to pass a theoretical physics final exam, it's outrageously insulting and absurd.

Second, when we do engage with such countries, it's typically resulting in much higher living standards there, and cheaper goods/services here. A win-win. Many of the countries have made great strides in poverty and human rights and expanding a middle class, specifically by engaging with big economies of the world.

Thirdly, even if in the U.S. you enforced such a ludicrous decree, you still DEFEAT YOURSELF AND THE NATION with your consequences. because remember, if the U.S. is prohibited by Socialists from engaging in the free market, South Koreans may happily take advantage of those labor costs and outcompete our similar companies...thanks to you tying our companies hands behind their back. Then they lose market share, then they collapse, and you move your parasitic activity to the next healthy host. And what pictures of low income China are you comparing these too? Shocking middle class U.S. citizens with pictures of china living/work conditions is NOT an issue with us working with them, it's the entire ****ing country.
 

fmw

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I don't support outsourcing but for a different reason. I don't care what Chinese dormitories look like. I do care that we send our manufacturing, jobs and wealth abroad, no matter where the "abroad" happens to be. If we want to end the current lousy economy, we need to start bringing those things back home.
 

imagep

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I don't support outsourcing but for a different reason. I don't care what Chinese dormitories look like. I do care that we send our manufacturing, jobs and wealth abroad, no matter where the "abroad" happens to be. If we want to end the current lousy economy, we need to start bringing those things back home.
Along the same line of thought, China purchases our treasuries and other assets because of the trade deficit. We have a trade deficit because the Chinese workers are often not paid enough to purchase American imports, and it's the money that is basically "stolen" from the productivity of the Chinese worker that goes to purchasing our securities. If the Chinese worker was paid a wage competitive to the US worker, there would be plenty of demand in China to replace exports to the US. And if the Chinese worker was paid a wage competitive to the US, the US would export more to China and import less, creating more jobs in the US, lowering the unemployment rate, increasing demand in the US, increasing business profits in the US, increasing our tax base, lowering the US spending on unemployment and welfare. We wouldn't even have a need to borrow our money back from China.

That's why I have no issue with placing tariffs on countries that don't meet a minimum set of employee and environmental standards, even thought I do recognize that free trade is important. Free trade isn't really free trade, unless it is also fair trade. When it's not fair, someone pays the price for it not being fair, thus, when a price is being paid, it's certainly not free. Right now, it's the American tax payer, and the Chinese worker, who are paying the price for our so called "free" trade.
 

Hard Truth

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Don't these other countries have freely elected governments to protect their workers? Just asking.
Most don't. Even if they did, the extremely poor never have much political power, even in the most democratic nations.
 

LowDown

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Along the same line of thought, China purchases our treasuries and other assets because of the trade deficit. We have a trade deficit because the Chinese workers are often not paid enough to purchase American imports, and it's the money that is basically "stolen" from the productivity of the Chinese worker that goes to purchasing our securities. If the Chinese worker was paid a wage competitive to the US worker, there would be plenty of demand in China to replace exports to the US. And if the Chinese worker was paid a wage competitive to the US, the US would export more to China and import less, creating more jobs in the US, lowering the unemployment rate, increasing demand in the US, increasing business profits in the US, increasing our tax base, lowering the US spending on unemployment and welfare. We wouldn't even have a need to borrow our money back from China.

That's why I have no issue with placing tariffs on countries that don't meet a minimum set of employee and environmental standards, even thought I do recognize that free trade is important. Free trade isn't really free trade, unless it is also fair trade. When it's not fair, someone pays the price for it not being fair, thus, when a price is being paid, it's certainly not free. Right now, it's the American tax payer, and the Chinese worker, who are paying the price for our so called "free" trade.
And yet if tariffs are imposed the main effect is that Chinese workers will lose their jobs and American consumers will pay a lot more. If Chinese workers were paid significantly higher wages their goods would be less competitive and we wouldn't be buying them.

Tariffs are always distortions of the market meant to benefit some narrow group to the detriment of everyone else.
 

fmw

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And yet if tariffs are imposed the main effect is that Chinese workers will lose their jobs and American consumers will pay a lot more.
The main effect will be that there might be some incentive to bring manufacturing back home. The secondary effect would be a trade war but we're the net consumers so we wouldn't "lose" a trade war. The concept is to do something about U.S. jobs and not Chinese jobs. Let the Chinese worry about their jobs. I'm worried about ours.
 
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Isn't it humorous that most socialists in the world don't come from socialist or formerly socialist countries? Speaking as a person who is from China and whose parents got to see firsthand the glamor of socialism, I find it pitiful that there are so many ignoramuses in the world who still think it can succeed.

Tens of millions of people died under Mao, and over a billion lived in poverty because of this system; this is multitudes more casualties than the Holocaust, but you don't see people saying Naziism can still work. The numbers are mind-blowing, and even moreso that the system that caused this still garners support. And to those who say "Oh, it wasn't true Socialism, I could make it work this time", why do you ignore the consequences of when it *doesn't* work?
 

Papa bull

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Isn't it humorous that most socialists in the world don't come from socialist or formerly socialist countries? Speaking as a person who is from China and whose parents got to see firsthand the glamor of socialism, I find it pitiful that there are so many ignoramuses in the world who still think it can succeed.

Tens of millions of people died under Mao, and over a billion lived in poverty because of this system; this is multitudes more casualties than the Holocaust, but you don't see people saying Naziism can still work. The numbers are mind-blowing, and even moreso that the system that caused this still garners support. And to those who say "Oh, it wasn't true Socialism, I could make it work this time", why do you ignore the consequences of when it *doesn't* work?
I know. My father was Cuban. The capitalism haters have no idea how good capitalism has made life for them. The poor here have it much better than the average citizen in Cuba where there is no hope of escaping poverty. Here everyone has a chance. In places like Cuba, only those that rise to high rank in the government have a good quality of life.
 

GottaGo

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I find it interesting that those who decry outsourcing jobs the loudest, and demand the return of manufacturing jobs to the US, are likely using foreign made products to do so. :wink:

They are usually the same people who deride corporations, yet work for them because that is where they can make money. I haven't seen one yet who admits to working for a poor person, and I've actually asked the question several times.

Personally, I would love to see manufacturing return to the US, and I purchase as many American made products as I reasonably can. I pay a 'premium' price for the pleasure of doing so.
 

jmotivator

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It is impossible to have foreign outsourcing unless you have working conditions like this in the country where you're sending jobs to.

Fixing the problems pointed out below means raising the cost of production and thus the cost of their cheap exports. Preventing fires like the one that killed those workers in Bangladesh means raising the cost of goods.

Human rights for workers abroad means more expensive imports for Americans and Conservatives hate that on a cellular level. Capitalism inherently pushes for the cheapest labor even at the expense of human health and life. The only way you have safe workplaces is with government intervention... aka "socialism".

Which is funny, since you never see Conservatives rushing to flee from American workplaces, which fall under the evil OSHA. And most Conservatives, like people in general, are not rich.

Pictures From Inside Apple's Chinese iPhone Factories - Business Insider

Apple said today that it will, once again, audit working conditions inside the Pegatron factories in China that it uses to assemble iPhones, iMacs and the new, upcoming cheap iPhone, the iPhone 5C.

The statement came after China Labor Watch produced a detailed report and a video of working conditions inside some of Apple's Chinese factories.

The video shows work rules that ban tattoos, died hair, short people and certain ethnic groups from the factories.

It also shows exhausted workers sleeping on the floor, using buckets to wash in, squalid communal showers rigged in parking garages, and a disgusting, unclean urinal.

The film also shows that Apple's contract workers are all very young — CLW alleges there is a ban on workers over 35. You can read the full CLW report here. What follows are photos from the accompanying YouTube video, taken undercover inside Apple's China facilities...


While I think the working conditions in Chinese factories are deplorable... ever ask yourself why so many manufacturers go to Communist countries for their cheap labor?

Also, are you so uninformed that you have never actually seen the working conditions in the former Soviet Union, or Cuba, or North Korea, etc. etc.

Capitalism isn't the problem.
 

LowDown

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The main effect will be that there might be some incentive to bring manufacturing back home. The secondary effect would be a trade war but we're the net consumers so we wouldn't "lose" a trade war. The concept is to do something about U.S. jobs and not Chinese jobs. Let the Chinese worry about their jobs. I'm worried about ours.
American jobs have not been lost to China. Certain kinds of industry have waned, but others, like import business, retail sales, marketting, etc., have replaced them.

The call for protectionism isn't a call to save American jobs. It's a call to return to the big manufacturing-big union model that really only benefitted certain small groups to the detriment of most other citizens.
 

DVSentinel

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The main effect will be that there might be some incentive to bring manufacturing back home. The secondary effect would be a trade war but we're the net consumers so we wouldn't "lose" a trade war. The concept is to do something about U.S. jobs and not Chinese jobs. Let the Chinese worry about their jobs. I'm worried about ours.
Not much of an incentive. A US Tariff would raise the price in the US market and not affect the companies sales in other markets. Moving manufacturing into the US would raise cost significantly for US consumers and may put the cost of the product totally out of reach for other consumers. How much of these companies profits are tied to the US market and how much worldwide? How much profit would the loose due to the higher cost of manufacturing in the US? End game is pretty simple for some of them, they could loose the entire US market and survive but couldn't survive with US manufacturing, possibly even in the US market if they have to compete against imports.

As an example, a few months back or maybe last year, there was an article that GM now sells more cars in China than in the US. While still significant, the US market is no longer the essential market.
 

fmw

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Not much of an incentive. A US Tariff would raise the price in the US market and not affect the companies sales in other markets. Moving manufacturing into the US would raise cost significantly for US consumers and may put the cost of the product totally out of reach for other consumers. How much of these companies profits are tied to the US market and how much worldwide? How much profit would the loose due to the higher cost of manufacturing in the US? End game is pretty simple for some of them, they could loose the entire US market and survive but couldn't survive with US manufacturing, possibly even in the US market if they have to compete against imports.

As an example, a few months back or maybe last year, there was an article that GM now sells more cars in China than in the US. While still significant, the US market is no longer the essential market.
You forgot to mention all those manufacturing jobs.
 

fmw

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American jobs have not been lost to China. Certain kinds of industry have waned, but others, like import business, retail sales, marketting, etc., have replaced them.

The call for protectionism isn't a call to save American jobs. It's a call to return to the big manufacturing-big union model that really only benefitted certain small groups to the detriment of most other citizens.
Let me try to clear this up for you. Import, retail, marketing etc. aren't things you can trade. We have a huge trade deficit. We have become a consumer society and we now running out of money because we've sent our wealth abroad. That is why the economy is in trouble. I don't believe there is any hope of turning our economy around until we start producing agains instead of consuming. If you believe otherwise, that's fine but it is illogical to me. I'm not talking about protectionism. I'm talking about increasing the cost of imports to help motivate businesses to come back home and create US jobs. The government, if it were wise (I realize it isn't), would replace some taxation with the import duties leaving more money in the hands of taxpayers. I don't see any other way out of this mess. Nobody else seems to have a sensible idea. Taxing and spending certainly isn't the answer.
 

LowDown

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It is impossible to have foreign outsourcing unless you have working conditions like this in the country where you're sending jobs to.

Fixing the problems pointed out below means raising the cost of production and thus the cost of their cheap exports. Preventing fires like the one that killed those workers in Bangladesh means raising the cost of goods.

Human rights for workers abroad means more expensive imports for Americans and Conservatives hate that on a cellular level. Capitalism inherently pushes for the cheapest labor even at the expense of human health and life. The only way you have safe workplaces is with government intervention... aka "socialism".

Which is funny, since you never see Conservatives rushing to flee from American workplaces, which fall under the evil OSHA. And most Conservatives, like people in general, are not rich.

Pictures From Inside Apple's Chinese iPhone Factories - Business Insider

Apple said today that it will, once again, audit working conditions inside the Pegatron factories in China that it uses to assemble iPhones, iMacs and the new, upcoming cheap iPhone, the iPhone 5C.

The statement came after China Labor Watch produced a detailed report and a video of working conditions inside some of Apple's Chinese factories.

The video shows work rules that ban tattoos, died hair, short people and certain ethnic groups from the factories.

It also shows exhausted workers sleeping on the floor, using buckets to wash in, squalid communal showers rigged in parking garages, and a disgusting, unclean urinal.

The film also shows that Apple's contract workers are all very young — CLW alleges there is a ban on workers over 35. You can read the full CLW report here. What follows are photos from the accompanying YouTube video, taken undercover inside Apple's China facilities...
There is a failure here to consider what these workers lives would be like without the jobs available at Apple. Unless they were dragooned off of the streets and imprisoned in the factory and forced to work against their will they are there by their own choice and presumably would not have been able to find anything with better conditions or pay.

To regulate these factories and force them to spend a lot of money changing things to your liking would be to shut them down because they would lose their competative cost advantage.

To shut down the factory would be to condemn these people to a life of worse poverty and deprivation than you imagine that they are living now.
 

LowDown

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Let me try to clear this up for you. Import, retail, marketing etc. aren't things you can trade. We have a huge trade deficit. We have become a consumer society and we now running out of money because we've sent our wealth abroad. That is why the economy is in trouble. I don't believe there is any hope of turning our economy around until we start producing agains instead of consuming. If you believe otherwise, that's fine but it is illogical to me. I'm not talking about protectionism. I'm talking about increasing the cost of imports to help motivate businesses to come back home and create US jobs. The government, if it were wise (I realize it isn't), would replace some taxation with the import duties leaving more money in the hands of taxpayers. I don't see any other way out of this mess. Nobody else seems to have a sensible idea. Taxing and spending certainly isn't the answer.
The economy is doing poorly because of excessive expensive and oppressive regulations from the government that are getting exponentially more numerous and difficult to deal with every year. That and the highest corporate tax in the world and an overall tax burden that is as high as it has ever been except for a few years during WWII.

You say you are not talking about protectionism but then describe a program that is indistinguishable from that in method and effect. Again, this approach would increase prices for goods and reduce the standard of living for everyone while benefitting a relatively narrow segment of the economy, a segment that Democrats and liberals happen to favor because it would boost big labor unions upon which they have always looked for financial and service support.
 

fmw

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The economy is doing poorly because of excessive expensive and oppressive regulations from the government that are getting exponentially more numerous and difficult to deal with every year. That and the highest corporate tax in the world and an overall tax burden that is as high as it has ever been except for a few years during WWII.
I disagree. Businesses adapt to regulation just as they adapt to everything else in the market environment. Taxes are paid on net profits. Higher taxes simply increase prices. Businesses don't pay business taxes, their customers do. None of this has anything to do with the current state of the economy.

You say you are not talking about protectionism but then describe a program that is indistinguishable from that in method and effect. Again, this approach would increase prices for goods and reduce the standard of living for everyone while benefitting a relatively narrow segment of the economy, a segment that Democrats and liberals happen to favor because it would boost big labor unions upon which they have always looked for financial and service support.
Protectionism involves a government standing in the way of free trade. I don't advocate that. I simply advocate making imports more expensive. In the end, if manufacturing and the jobs related to it return to the U.S., everyone (in the U.S.) benefits frin a stronger economy and less wealth being sent abroad. The pain is temporary. The pain we have now is forever if we don't do something differently.
 
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