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If you could abolish just one tax...... (1 Viewer)

Which tax would you abolish if you could?


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If you could abolish just one tax, which tax would you abolish? Now, the key is you just have to choose one, and you have to give a reason as to why you chose the one you chose.

If we could, lets keep this as more of an academic discussion, not a right verses left or any of that crap. Just give the tax you would abolish, and the reason you think it above all other taxes should be abolished.
 
Ok, I say sales taxes. I say this for practical reasons. I do not believe that ideology should be the guiding factor in economic policy.

Sales taxes are by far the most regressive of taxes. The less you earn, the larger the portion of your income sales taxes consume. Therefore, sales taxes by far hurt those on the lower end of the economic ladder the most. However, that is not the practical reason for abolishing them. The practical reason is that over 2/3rds of our economy is consumption. Therefore, sales taxes present a greater drag on economic growth than any other single type of tax. The higher the sales taxes, the greater the drag on consumption, the greater the drag on consumption, the weaker economic growth is.
 
Thats a tough one.Peronally I think there should only be only be sale taxes on goods and services.But if I could only remove one tax it would have to be the property tax.
 
I voted to abolish the Property Tax. Why? Because the property tax has stripped us of our right to own property. We no longer own property anymore; we lease it from the government and if we don't pay the government so we can stay in our house/on our land of choice then the government takes the property away and may take it away even if we do pay our property taxes because of the eminent domain laws. Personally, I'd also vote to abolish the income tax as well.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I voted to abolish the Property Tax. Why? Because the property tax has stripped us of our right to own property. We no longer own property anymore; we lease it from the government and if we don't pay the government so we can stay in our house/on our land of choice then the government takes the property away and may take it away even if we do pay our property taxes because of the eminent domain laws. Personally, I'd also vote to abolish the income tax as well.

Definately The Property Tax and for the reasons listed above in Napoleon's post.

Its pathetic when a county has such a high property tax that people are willing to commute 1.5 hours to work, and still save money, even with higher cost of gas, over owning a home closer to work. (Im talking about my area) :2razz:
 
I'd go with payroll tax.

Right now it is only paid on the first $90,000 of income. So Exxon's Lee Raymond, who earned $190,000 A DAY in 2005, payed payroll taxes on his salary on Jan 1, 2005 from 9:00 A.M till , oh, about noon....

The payroll tax is inherently unfair, and punishes the poor and middle class.
 
hipsterdufus said:
I'd go with payroll tax.

Right now it is only paid on the first $90,000 of income. So Exxon's Lee Raymond, who earned $190,000 A DAY in 2005, payed payroll taxes on his salary on Jan 1, 2005 from 9:00 A.M till , oh, about noon....

The payroll tax is inherently unfair, and punishes the poor and middle class.

Ditto. The SS tax is a highly regressive tax that disproportionately burdens the working poor and middle class -- a tax the wealthiest do not effectively pay as percentage of their income.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I voted to abolish the Property Tax. Why? Because the property tax has stripped us of our right to own property. We no longer own property anymore; we lease it from the government and if we don't pay the government so we can stay in our house/on our land of choice then the government takes the property away and may take it away even if we do pay our property taxes because of the eminent domain laws. Personally, I'd also vote to abolish the income tax as well.

Your house isn't personal property. Maybe the SD meant that election of the poll to mean property taxes, versus personal property taxes. And of course, any property taxes are state, not federal.

Eminent domain is not a tax, different issue.
 
Iriemon said:
Your house isn't personal property. Maybe the SD meant that election of the poll to mean property taxes, versus personal property taxes. And of course, any property taxes are state, not federal.

Eminent domain is not a tax, different issue.

Actually, I forgot to add Property Taxes. However, for the purposes of the poll, I suppose that personal property taxes and property taxes should just be lumped together.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
If you could abolish just one tax, which tax would you abolish? Now, the key is you just have to choose one, and you have to give a reason as to why you chose the one you chose.

If we could, lets keep this as more of an academic discussion, not a right verses left or any of that crap. Just give the tax you would abolish, and the reason you think it above all other taxes should be abolished.
Corporate income taxes. These do nothing but raise the cost of producing a product, a cost that is then passed on to the consumer. Eliminating this will lower prices and/or give corporations more investment capitol to expand and improve thier business. This will lead to more jobs and a stronger economy. It will also stimulate foreign investors to start moving thier corps. here, bringing even more jobs to this country.
 
faithful_servant said:
Corporate income taxes. These do nothing but raise the cost of producing a product, a cost that is then passed on to the consumer. Eliminating this will lower prices and/or give corporations more investment capitol to expand and improve thier business. This will lead to more jobs and a stronger economy. It will also stimulate foreign investors to start moving thier corps. here, bringing even more jobs to this country.

I agree with this one too. Individuals that benefit from corporations should be taxed; not the corporations themselves.
 
hipsterdufus said:
I'd go with payroll tax.

Right now it is only paid on the first $90,000 of income. So Exxon's Lee Raymond, who earned $190,000 A DAY in 2005, payed payroll taxes on his salary on Jan 1, 2005 from 9:00 A.M till , oh, about noon....

The payroll tax is inherently unfair, and punishes the poor and middle class.

I can’t help but to disagree with you. While it is true that Lee Raymond only paid payroll taxes on his first $90,000 in income, Lee Raymond will draw the same Social Security benefit as someone who earned just $90,000 a year, and his Medicare benefit will be the same as anyone’s regardless of how much the earned. Therefore, there is really no inherent unfairness in payroll taxes.

However, if you abolished them, you would benefit guys like Lee Raymond, who pay in on their first $90,000 but who don’t in anyway need Social Security or Medicare, but hurt everyone one else, who would get a tax cut out of it, but in return loose Social Security and Medicare benefits, of which virtually all of us other than the very rich will need one day. I am sure that many guys like Lee Raymond would love to get rid of payroll taxes, all it would be for them is a small tax cut. They don’t need Social Security. They don’t need Medicare. However, as it stands, it would be impossible for the vast majority of retirees to be able to afford their own private insurance after retiring instead of Medicare. I mean for crying out loud, look at how high medical insurance rates are for a healthy 30 year old. Can you imagine how high private medical insurance rates would be for a 70 year old with heart disease? Moreover, while many people do have 401ks and other retirement investments, the median balance on those investments if not even remotely sufficient to fund the majority of Americans retirements absent some sort of Social Security benefit, and with a median household income of about 45k a year or so (meaning that fully half of all American households currently earn less than 45k or so a year), half of Americans simply do not have the disposable income to even remotely fund their own retirements absent Social Security, regardless of private plans or incentives.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I can’t help but to disagree with you. While it is true that Lee Raymond only paid payroll taxes on his first $90,000 in income, Lee Raymond will draw the same Social Security benefit as someone who earned just $90,000 a year, and his Medicare benefit will be the same as anyone’s regardless of how much the earned. Therefore, there is really no inherent unfairness in payroll taxes.

However, if you abolished them, you would benefit guys like Lee Raymond, who pay in on their first $90,000 but who don’t in anyway need Social Security or Medicare, but hurt everyone one else, who would get a tax cut out of it, but in return loose Social Security and Medicare benefits, of which virtually all of us other than the very rich will need one day. I am sure that many guys like Lee Raymond would love to get rid of payroll taxes, all it would be for them is a small tax cut. They don’t need Social Security. They don’t need Medicare. However, as it stands, it would be impossible for the vast majority of retirees to be able to afford their own private insurance after retiring instead of Medicare. I mean for crying out loud, look at how high medical insurance rates are for a healthy 30 year old. Can you imagine how high private medical insurance rates would be for a 70 year old with heart disease? Moreover, while many people do have 401ks and other retirement investments, the median balance on those investments if not even remotely sufficient to fund the majority of Americans retirements absent some sort of Social Security benefit, and with a median household income of about 45k a year or so (meaning that fully half of all American households currently earn less than 45k or so a year), half of Americans simply do not have the disposable income to even remotely fund their own retirements absent Social Security, regardless of private plans or incentives.

You position is based on the assumption that a tax is like some sort of investment that mandates and equivalent return on the indivual level. A tax is not an investment.
 
Iriemon said:
You position is based on the assumption that a tax is like some sort of investment that mandates and equivalent return on the indivual level. A tax is not an investment.

Actually, arguably taxes are a form of social investment in a democracy. Moreover, payroll taxes unlike other forms of taxation are to an extent a personal investment. However, my point was that payroll taxes are not unfair because the amount of money you draw in Social Security is capped at where the taxes are capped. If Lee Raymond only paid in on his first 90k, but drew a benefit based on his entire income, then the tax would be very unfair. That is not how it works though.

Moreover, as I stated, if you get rid of payroll taxes, then it only stands to reason that you would have to fully abolish Social Security and Medicare as well. While doing so would not hurt guys like Lee Raymond at all, the rest of use would be in a hell of a shape as a result of such a move.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Moreover, as I stated, if you get rid of payroll taxes, then it only stands to reason that you would have to fully abolish Social Security and Medicare as well. While doing so would not hurt guys like Lee Raymond at all, the rest of use would be in a hell of a shape as a result of such a move.

Cant disagree more.
Not having to pay that ~6.5% means I have an extra $4500/yr to invest.
Assuming for a moment that my employer will put the $4500/yr he pays into SocSec for me into my 401(k), thats an extra $9000/yr I have to invest.

Thats, what, an extra $500k at retirement?

Abolishing payroll taxes and SocSec would benifit me -- and the large number of Americans like me, perhaps even you -- greatly.
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
Actually, arguably taxes are a form of social investment in a democracy. Moreover, payroll taxes unlike other forms of taxation are to an extent a personal investment. However, my point was that payroll taxes are not unfair because the amount of money you draw in Social Security is capped at where the taxes are capped. If Lee Raymond only paid in on his first 90k, but drew a benefit based on his entire income, then the tax would be very unfair. That is not how it works though.

It's only "unfair" if you view taxes as investments. Taxes are not investments. I understand that many thing that SS is some kind of investment/pension fund, but of course it is not. The Govt has stolen $2 trillion of the "investments" for years and used the proceeds and general tax revenues. So let's quit playing charades and just eliminate the separate tax system.

Moreover, as I stated, if you get rid of payroll taxes, then it only stands to reason that you would have to fully abolish Social Security and Medicare as well. While doing so would not hurt guys like Lee Raymond at all, the rest of use would be in a hell of a shape as a result of such a move.

Not at all. There is no particular reason why Govt expenditures on stuff like SS insurance and medicaid have to be funded out of an entirely different tax system. You could (should) have a unified tax system with the income tax. That is the way the Republicans treat it when they talk about the deficits anyway, the include SS revenues and use them as if they are general revenues, so scrap that and pay for everyting thru income taxes.
 
Goobieman said:
Cant disagree more.
Not having to pay that ~6.5% means I have an extra $4500/yr to invest.
Assuming for a moment that my emplyer will put the $4500/yr he pays into SocSec for me into my 401(k), thats an extra $9000/yr I have to invest.

Abolishing payroll taxes and SocSec would benifit me -- and the large number of Americans like, perhaps even you -- greatly.

I think your argument holds more water than the one about payroll taxes being unfair because they are capped at 90k. That is not to say that I agree with your argument though. :2razz:

I will say that in such a scenario, you might be able to fund your retirement, but when your hit with those 2000 dollar a month private insurance bills, you are probably going to wish you had the medicare instead.
 
Iriemon said:
Not at all. There is no particular reason why Govt expenditures on stuff like SS insurance and medicaid have to be funded out of an entirely different tax system. You could (should) have a unified tax system with the income tax. That is the way the Republicans treat it when they talk about the deficits anyway, the include SS revenues and use them as if they are general revenues, so scrap that and pay for everyting thru income taxes.

Well yeah, you could simply include it in progressive Income Taxes. However, in such a situation, it would be unfair to the wealthy, as they would pay in a higher percentage, yet get no more benefit than those who pay in less. Just the same, the other side of the coin would of course be that our Social Security and Medicare funding problems would be solved.
 
Goobieman said:
Cant disagree more.
Not having to pay that ~6.5% means I have an extra $4500/yr to invest.
Assuming for a moment that my employer will put the $4500/yr he pays into SocSec for me into my 401(k), thats an extra $9000/yr I have to invest.

Thats, what, an extra $500k at retirement?

Abolishing payroll taxes and SocSec would benifit me -- and the large number of Americans like me, perhaps even you -- greatly.

Yeah -- if you are one of the lucky ones who dies before their savings run out.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I think your argument holds more water than the one about payroll taxes being unfair because they are capped at 90k. That is not to say that I agree with your argument though. :2razz:

I will say that in such a scenario, you might be able to fund your retirement, but when your hit with those 2000 dollar a month private insurance bills, you are probably going to wish you had the medicare instead.

You're assuming that I will not have insurance thru my employer after I retire.
And in any event -- that $500k will pay for for over 20 years worth of those insurance bills. :2razz:

In any event, that's why I take issue wirh your statement -- peopel like me - and I am Middle Class America - would benefit greatly.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Well yeah, you could simply include it in progressive Income Taxes. However, in such a situation, it would be unfair to the wealthy, as they would pay in a higher percentage, yet get no more benefit than those who pay in less. Just the same, the other side of the coin would of course be that our Social Security and Medicare funding problems would be solved.

The wealthy certainly get a benefit. They get to live in a country where they don't have to look at hordes of old and infirm folks living under freeway bridges and begging for food at stoplights. Not to mention the civil and political consequences.
 
Goobieman said:
You're assuming that I will not have insurance thru my employer after I retire.
And in any event -- that $500k will pay for for over 20 years worth of those insurance bills. :2razz:

In any event, that's why I take issue wirh your statement -- peopel like me - and I am Middle Class America - would benefit greatly.

SS was implemented because Middle class America ended up being aged without sufficient savings to live on and were living below poverty en masses -- they were not benefitting greatly.
 
Goobieman said:
You're assuming that I will not have insurance thru my employer after I retire.
And in any event -- that $500k will pay for for over 20 years worth of those insurance bills. :2razz:

In any event, that's why I take issue wirh your statement -- peopel like me - and I am Middle Class America - would benefit greatly.

Employers are being forced to cut Medical Insurance benefits for their current workers, and companies with aging workforces like GM are unable to compete with companies with younger workers simply because of Medical Insurance Costs, at the rate things are going, no one in 10 or 20 years will be working for a company who will pay their healthcare costs after they retire.

Yes, for a while you might have the retirement income to pay those huge insurance bills. The problem is the older you get, the less you will have in your retirement accounts, and the higher your insurance will be. For example, my wife's Mee Maw (great grandmother) is 96 years old. Even in a best case scenario, her retirement investments absent Social Security would almost certainly be depleted by her age, and her cost for Medical Insurance would be astronomical at the age of 96.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
no one in 10 or 20 years will be working for a company who will pay their healthcare costs after they retire.
You dont know where I work.
There has to be a disaster sufficient to upset the actuarial tables to change things to the popint where I won't have insurance.

Yes, for a while you might have the retirement income to pay those huge insurance bills. The problem is the older you get, the less you will have in your retirement accounts, and the higher your insurance will be.
Who takes money from their account? Who doesnt live off the interest?
$500k in a 5% annuity pays for the bills you postulate, forever.

For example, my wife's Mee Maw (great grandmother) is 96 years old. Even in a best case scenario, her retirement investments absent Social Security would almost certainly be depleted by her age, and her cost for Medical Insurance would be astronomical at the age of 96.
But, that's not comparable to me and people like me, and the $9k/yr we'd have if there were no payroll taxes (and the entitlements they fund).

Note that my $4500/yr figure is based off the eilimation of SocSec and its associated tax. It doesn't address Medicare and its tax.
 
I am rather surprised that so far no one has agreed with me on Sales Taxes. As I stated earlier, they are by far the most regressive forms of taxation, and consumption taxes present a greater drag on economic growth than any other form of taxation.
 

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