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If you are pro-choice, do you think a man should have the choice not to pay alimony?

Crusader13

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This is something I'll never understanding around current laws, in the US at least. If a mother doesn't want to become a parent she doesn't have to. She can kill a child and walk away with a clean slate.

Flip it around and it's a completely different story. If a man doesn't want to become a parent, tough luck. The woman can decide to keep the baby and the man is legally forced to pay alimony. That's a direct contradiction to pro-"choice". You're only letting the woman have a choice while completely ignoring the choice of a man.

It's also a violation of the "my body, my choice" argument. Forcing a man to pay alimony is dictating what he can and can't do with this body. That alimony would come from the effort of his labour. His hands flipping burgers. He'd likely have to take up more hours at work in order to be able to afford the alimony payments and maintain the same standard of living for himself. That's a violation of his bodily autonomy, is it not?

It's hard to deny that women get the better end of the deal when it comes to sex and parent planning. It really makes it impossible to swallow the whole "male privilege" myth.

What are your thoughts?
 

sangha

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Women have just as much right to have their prostate removed as a man does

And men have just as much right to have an abortion as women do

And no man has to become a parent if they do not want to.
 

maquiscat

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This is something I'll never understanding around current laws, in the US at least. If a mother doesn't want to become a parent she doesn't have to. She can kill a child and walk away with a clean slate.

Flip it around and it's a completely different story. If a man doesn't want to become a parent, tough luck. The woman can decide to keep the baby and the man is legally forced to pay alimony. That's a direct contradiction to pro-"choice". You're only letting the woman have a choice while completely ignoring the choice of a man.

It's also a violation of the "my body, my choice" argument. Forcing a man to pay alimony is dictating what he can and can't do with this body. That alimony would come from the effort of his labour. His hands flipping burgers. He'd likely have to take up more hours at work in order to be able to afford the alimony payments and maintain the same standard of living for himself. That's a violation of his bodily autonomy, is it not?

It's hard to deny that women get the better end of the deal when it comes to sex and parent planning. It really makes it impossible to swallow the whole "male privilege" myth.

What are your thoughts?
First off you are confusing alimony and child support. Alimony is what is paid after a divorce and is determined regardless of children.

Secondly you are conflating two separate issues. Responsibility to a child after it's born and bodily autonomy.

Bodily autonomy is equal, because if a man should somehow find himself pregnant, he would also have every legal right the woman has to have the ZEF removed from his body. She would, assuming it was a female that somehow did this, also have the same financial responsibility towards the child should he decide to keep it.

Now equality aside, the issue of whether or not the non-bearer should have an option of removal of responsibility is completely separate. I also noticed in your suppositions, that you did not lament that the guy couldn't decide to keep the child even if the mother didn't want it, which really says a lot about your position. Sadly, that kind of issue can only be resolved with the advancement of artificial womb (AW) technology alongside a development of ZEF removal that is less traumatic than current abortion techniques and allows for the possibility of either termination or placement in the AW.

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AlphaOmega

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Women have just as much right to have their prostate removed as a man does

And men have just as much right to have an abortion as women do

And no man has to become a parent if they do not want to.

Following this logic then we can end gay marriage because gay men have just as much right to marry a woman as a straight man and vice versa for gay women. And a man is forced into parenthood by the woman even if he doesnt want to be a father. He will be forced to support the child. Thats a fact.
 

maquiscat

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And no man has to become a parent if they do not want to.

I think that this statement lack the context that the OP provides, albeit not explicitly. I take from your statement that a man does have to become a parent against his choice by making the choice not to have sex to start with. Or by removing the testicles altogether. Those are the only two 100% methods of not having offspring. Ok one more, having sex with a woman who has had a hysterectomy of some degree (I think ovary removal is considered partial hysterectomy. Willing to be corrected). But no man has the choice, currently, to not become a parent, biologically speaking, once conception has occurred.

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maquiscat

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Following this logic then we can end gay marriage because gay men have just as much right to marry a woman as a straight man and vice versa for gay women. And a man is forced into parenthood by the woman even if he doesnt want to be a father. He will be forced to support the child. Thats a fact.

False premise. The law should not address gender or sex. Thus anyone who gets pregnant, male or female, has a right to get an abortion. Likewise, anyone has a right to marry anyone else. Both false under the assumption of able to being able to give informed consent.

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AlphaOmega

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False premise. The law should not address gender or sex. Thus anyone who gets pregnant, male or female, has a right to get an abortion. Likewise, anyone has a right to marry anyone else. Both false under the assumption of able to being able to give informed consent.

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Its not false. A gay man has the same exact right to marry a woman as I do. Does he not?
 
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Flip it around and it's a completely different story. If a man doesn't want to become a parent, tough luck. The woman can decide to keep the baby and the man is legally forced to pay alimony. That's a direct contradiction to pro-"choice". You're only letting the woman have a choice while completely ignoring the choice of a man.

More white man abuse.

You people are unbelievable.

You angry red hats are what is wrong with this country. You are the problem. A bunch of entitled folks who will take no personal responsibility.

Yuck
 

Greenbeard

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Flip it around and it's a completely different story.

That's not flipping it around. Flipping it around is asking whether, if a woman doesn't want to carry a fetus, it should be surgically implanted in the father --through some crazy science ala Junior--to carry against his will. If we could do that, this whole conversation becomes a completely different story.

220px-Juniorposter.jpg
 

Crusader13

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Women have just as much right to have their prostate removed as a man does

And men have just as much right to have an abortion as women do

And no man has to become a parent if they do not want to.

You've completed ignored my OP and even resorted to a terrible false equivalency.

A woman cannot claim control of a man's prostate because that man would've had the prostate with our without her. She's completely devoid of its existence.

A fetus is the product of both a man and a woman. A man had to give his body up for that fetus to be created. Stripping him of any bit of say in the matter doesn't make much sense.

Also, being coerced to pay child support for 18 years is forced parenthood. Sorry. A man has to sit by while a woman gets to kills his child yet he has no right to "my money, my choice"? Point me to the equality in that situation.
 

noonereal

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First off you are confusing alimony and child support. Alimony is what is paid after a divorce and is determined regardless of children.

Secondly you are conflating two separate issues. Responsibility to a child after it's born and bodily autonomy.

Bodily autonomy is equal, because if a man should somehow find himself pregnant, he would also have every legal right the woman has to have the ZEF removed from his body. She would, assuming it was a female that somehow did this, also have the same financial responsibility towards the child should he decide to keep it.

Now equality aside, the issue of whether or not the non-bearer should have an option of removal of responsibility is completely separate. I also noticed in your suppositions, that you did not lament that the guy couldn't decide to keep the child even if the mother didn't want it, which really says a lot about your position. Sadly, that kind of issue can only be resolved with the advancement of artificial womb (AW) technology alongside a development of ZEF removal that is less traumatic than current abortion techniques and allows for the possibility of either termination or placement in the AW.

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The OP does not even understand the difference between alimony and child support. All he knows is that he is a white male who is unfairly treated. No matter what situation he faces in life. It's part of the Palin/Trump movement. Failed people looking to blame others. Palin and now Trump justify that failure, it's never their fault, they are "victims." It's like giving them absolution for failed lives.
 

Crusader13

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That's not flipping it around. Flipping it around is asking whether, if a woman doesn't want to carry a fetus, it should be surgically implanted in the father --through some crazy science ala Junior--to carry against his will. If we could do that, this whole conversation becomes a completely different story.

220px-Juniorposter.jpg

No. Just...no.

You say you're against forced parenthood and coercing people into a life they don't want if they're not ready, yet you're fine with forcing a stupid teenager who had unprotected sex to 18 years of child support. That's a contradiction.
 

maquiscat

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Its not false. Agay man has the same exact right to marry a woman as I do. Does he not?
What you are saying is the truth but not the whole truth. A straight man has the same exact same right to marry another man as I do. General and sex is not supposed to enter into law. Therefore, marriage cannot be restricted by gender or sex, per the 14th.

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maquiscat

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The OP does not even understand the difference between alimony and child support. All he knows is that he is a white male who is unfairly treated. No matter what situation he faces in life. It's part of the Palin/Trump movement. Failed people looking to blame others. Palin and now Trump justify that failure, it's never their fault, they are "victims." It's like giving them absolution for failed lives.
So explain how the OP excludes black males, and Asian males, and mideastern male, and well all non-white males from his premise.

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Crusader13

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The OP does not even understand the difference between alimony and child support. All he knows is that he is a white male who is unfairly treated. No matter what situation he faces in life. It's part of the Palin/Trump movement. Failed people looking to blame others. Palin and now Trump justify that failure, it's never their fault, they are "victims." It's like giving them absolution for failed lives.

Why are you assuming my race?

In fact, why are you bringing race into a completely irrelevant conversation around reproductive/parenting issues? That's a detestable way to resort to identity politics instead of addressing the actual question.

Be better.
 

noonereal

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Why are you assuming my race?

In fact, why are you bringing race into a completely irrelevant conversation around reproductive/parenting issues? That's a detestable way to resort to identity politics instead of addressing the actual question.

Be better.

You are transparent and it's obviously part of your victimization mind set.

Come on man, take some personal responsibility, it's not so bad. You'll be better off.
 

maquiscat

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No. Just...no.

You say you're against forced parenthood and coercing people into a life they don't want if they're not ready, yet you're fine with forcing a stupid teenager who had unprotected sex to 18 years of child support. That's a contradiction.

If the 18 years old girl chooses to keep the child she will also be forced to 18 years of child support, of one form or another.

The only real equivalency here is the removal of something from one's own body.

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noonereal

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So explain how the OP excludes black males, and Asian males, and mideastern male, and well all non-white males from his premise.

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We all know where he is coming from. Red Hat victimization.

Off putting.
 

AlphaOmega

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What you are saying is the truth but not the whole truth. A straight man has the same exact same right to marry another man as I do. General and sex is not supposed to enter into law. Therefore, marriage cannot be restricted by gender or sex, per the 14th.

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guess you only support false premises you agree with. A man should have just as much right to abort their child as the female...and according to you sex is not supposed to enter our law, except when you need it to fit your argument. Which of your premises is false they both cant be true.
 

maquiscat

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You are transparent and it's obviously part of your victimization mind set.

Come on man, take some personal responsibility, it's not so bad. You'll be better off.

You're looking rather transparent on the white male hating mind set.

You will.of course deny it, but take some personal responsibility, man. It's not so bad and you'll be better off.

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maquiscat

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We all know where he is coming from. Red Hat victimization.

Off putting.
Hardly, when I have heard this argument from males of all races, and even a few females.

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noonereal

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Hardly, when I have heard this argument from males of all races, and even a few females.

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You are using a fallacy.

What you say (if true) does not invalidate what I said.

I never said JUST the "red hats" have this victimization mind set. I said this poster does and that the "red hats" are an tribe of folks who see everything as if they are being victimized.

I am sure you have heard about teh angry old white man who is at the core of the TRump moment.
 

noonereal

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You're looking rather transparent on the white male hating mind set.

You will.of course deny it, but take some personal responsibility, man. It's not so bad and you'll be better off.

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Straight up trolling I see. I should have known.
 

trouble13

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First off you are confusing alimony and child support. Alimony is what is paid after a divorce and is determined regardless of children.

Secondly you are conflating two separate issues. Responsibility to a child after it's born and bodily autonomy.

Bodily autonomy is equal, because if a man should somehow find himself pregnant, he would also have every legal right the woman has to have the ZEF removed from his body. She would, assuming it was a female that somehow did this, also have the same financial responsibility towards the child should he decide to keep it.

Now equality aside, the issue of whether or not the non-bearer should have an option of removal of responsibility is completely separate. I also noticed in your suppositions, that you did not lament that the guy couldn't decide to keep the child even if the mother didn't want it, which really says a lot about your position. Sadly, that kind of issue can only be resolved with the advancement of artificial womb (AW) technology alongside a development of ZEF removal that is less traumatic than current abortion techniques and allows for the possibility of either termination or placement in the AW.

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Just put of curiosity, in your scenerio of an (AW), if the woman decided she did not want the baby, but the father did, would the woman be held financial responsible for the child's care after it was born?

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Crusader13

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Come on man, take some personal responsibility, it's not so bad. You'll be better off.

A man not paying child support because he doesn't want to be a parent = not taking responsibility.

A woman ending a human life because she doesn't want to be a parent =?

You are correct. Personal responsibility is a good thing, and I agree more men need to take some. But women definitely need to as well. It's a two way street.

If the 18 years old girl chooses to keep the child she will also be forced to 18 years of child support, of one form or another.

The only real equivalency here is the removal of something from one's own body.

She's not being forced into anything if she decides to keep the baby.

And I explained in my OP that forcing child support out of a man is a violation of his bodily autonomy. That money comes from his labour. That's the product of his body.
 
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