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If we have to have private prisons...

Private prison corporations should be paid...


  • Total voters
    15

radcen

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If we have to have private prisons... meaning prisons run by private corporations via contract... how should the contracts be structured? Should the corporations be paid...

1) Per inmate,
2) Flat fee (same whether they have 1 "customer" or 1,000),
3) Some combo of #1 & #2,
4) Something else entirely.

Question presumes you get to make the choice how this will be done for all future contracts and renewals. Current scenarios are irrelevant.

And no, we don't have to have them, but we do, and they're not going away anytime soon. It's just a phrase.
 
If we have to have private prisons... meaning prisons run by private corporations via contract... how should the contracts be structured? Should the corporations be paid...

1) Per inmate,
2) Flat fee (same whether they have 1 "customer" or 1,000),
3) Some combo of #1 & #2,
4) Something else entirely.

Question presumes you get to make the choice how this will be done for all future contracts and renewals. Current scenarios are irrelevant.

And no, we don't have to have them, but we do, and they're not going away anytime soon. It's just a phrase.

The claim that privatized prison operations increase incarceration numbers is unfounded rhetoric (aka-a lie). Companies that run prisons are not part of the court system that determines who goes to prison, and it is illegal for those companies to give kick-backs in any form (such as campaign contributions to prosecutors or judges). I'm not a supporter of, nor am I against, privately run prisons, but they are no different than having a private company operate a lock and dam system on a river for the US Army Corps of Engineers. Private companies can do the same work for less money than most government agencies can do the same work in many, although not all, circumstances. That's why the government hires private companies.

I chose a combination of 1 and 2 in the poll.
 
The claim that privatized prison operations increase incarceration numbers is unfounded rhetoric (aka-a lie). Companies that run prisons are not part of the court system that determines who goes to prison, and it is illegal for those companies to give kick-backs in any form (such as campaign contributions to prosecutors or judges). I'm not a supporter of, nor am I against, privately run prisons, but they are no different than having a private company operate a lock and dam system on a river for the US Army Corps of Engineers. Private companies can do the same work for less money than most government agencies can do the same work in many, although not all, circumstances. That's why the government hires private companies.

I chose a combination of 1 and 2 in the poll.
Are you suggesting they have no influence whatsoever?
 
Are you suggesting they have no influence whatsoever?

I've never seen any. That doesn't mean that I feel it cannot exist, but there are laws, regulations, inspections, and audits that ensure that it doesn't occur, or if it does, that those involved are punished severely.
 
Private Prisons are absolutely unacceptable.
This is one of the most offensive things out there.

Could you even imagine being the property of a corporation that wants your starved, raped body to be present to make profit?

Debbie Shultz takes lots of money from the private prison industry.
And she opposes "medical" marijuana.
Gee, I wonder why?
She also is a Congresswoman of a State that has had judges go to prison for taking kick backs to send more boys to private prison.
 
The claim that privatized prison operations increase incarceration numbers is unfounded rhetoric (aka-a lie). Companies that run prisons are not part of the court system that determines who goes to prison, and it is illegal for those companies to give kick-backs in any form (such as campaign contributions to prosecutors or judges).

A 90% occupancy rate for 20 years does not sound like unfounded rhetoric. It sounds like an incentive for states to keep prisons full.

Private purchasing of prisons locks in occupancy rates – USATODAY.com
At a time when states are struggling to reduce bloated prison populations and tight budgets, a private prison management company is offering to buy prisons in exchange for various considerations, including a controversial guarantee that the governments maintain a 90% occupancy rate for at least 20 years.
"Lockup Quotas," "Low-crime Taxes," and the For-Profit Prison Industry

6 Shocking Revelations About How Private Prisons Make Their Money | Alternet

States Guarantee High Prison Populations for Private Prison Industry?s Profits

I'm not a supporter of, nor am I against, privately run prisons, but they are no different than having a private company operate a lock and dam system on a river for the US Army Corps of Engineers. Private companies can do the same work for less money than most government agencies can do the same work in many, although not all, circumstances. That's why the government hires private companies.

I chose a combination of 1 and 2 in the poll.
Just because a private business can do it doesn't mean they should.Law enforcement and incarceration are some of those things private companies should not handle due the fact they are motivated by profits and not by justice.
 
The claim that privatized prison operations increase incarceration numbers is unfounded rhetoric (aka-a lie). Companies that run prisons are not part of the court system that determines who goes to prison, and it is illegal for those companies to give kick-backs in any form (such as campaign contributions to prosecutors or judges). I'm not a supporter of, nor am I against, privately run prisons, but they are no different than having a private company operate a lock and dam system on a river for the US Army Corps of Engineers. Private companies can do the same work for less money than most government agencies can do the same work in many, although not all, circumstances. That's why the government hires private companies.

I chose a combination of 1 and 2 in the poll.

Here's the Latest Evidence of How Private Prisons Are Exploiting Inmates for Profit | Mother Jones
Private Prisons Industry: Increasing Incarcerations, Maximizing Profits and Corrupting Our Democracy

Private prisons are a very bad idea since they have a vested interest in keeping as many people locked up as possible as it affects their bottom line. The also lobby for harsher sentences, longer sentences and maintaining the War On Drugs.

They don't have to be part of the court system to have a very insidious effect.
 
I would actually be ok with some private prisons if low recidivism was incentivized. Like they get reoccurring payments each year their former tenants stay out legal trouble. That way they would focus on rehabilitation and teaching schools. As it currently stands the revolving door is in the prison industry's economic interest.
 
A 90% occupancy rate for 20 years does not sound like unfounded rhetoric. It sounds like an incentive for states to keep prisons full.

Private purchasing of prisons locks in occupancy rates – USATODAY.com
At a time when states are struggling to reduce bloated prison populations and tight budgets, a private prison management company is offering to buy prisons in exchange for various considerations, including a controversial guarantee that the governments maintain a 90% occupancy rate for at least 20 years.
"Lockup Quotas," "Low-crime Taxes," and the For-Profit Prison Industry

6 Shocking Revelations About How Private Prisons Make Their Money | Alternet

States Guarantee High Prison Populations for Private Prison Industry?s Profits


Just because a private business can do it doesn't mean they should.Law enforcement and incarceration are some of those things private companies should not handle due the fact they are motivated by profits and not by justice.
Part of why I feel a flat rate should be done.
 
If we have to have private prisons... meaning prisons run by private corporations via contract... how should the contracts be structured? Should the corporations be paid...

1) Per inmate,
2) Flat fee (same whether they have 1 "customer" or 1,000),
3) Some combo of #1 & #2,
4) Something else entirely.

Question presumes you get to make the choice how this will be done for all future contracts and renewals. Current scenarios are irrelevant.

And no, we don't have to have them, but we do, and they're not going away anytime soon. It's just a phrase.

I voted flat fee, but I'd like to change that now. I think they should get a bonus for every inmate who DOESN'T return to any prison or jail, anywhere, in the 5 years after their release. This would incentivize focusing on rehab opportunities within prisons. There are also other ways I can think of to stabilize their income while simultaneously reducing re-offence rates, such as letting them run any especially good anti-crime programs they manage to come up with, for at-risk people and youth.

The claim that privatized prison operations increase incarceration numbers is unfounded rhetoric (aka-a lie). Companies that run prisons are not part of the court system that determines who goes to prison, and it is illegal for those companies to give kick-backs in any form (such as campaign contributions to prosecutors or judges). I'm not a supporter of, nor am I against, privately run prisons, but they are no different than having a private company operate a lock and dam system on a river for the US Army Corps of Engineers. Private companies can do the same work for less money than most government agencies can do the same work in many, although not all, circumstances. That's why the government hires private companies.

I chose a combination of 1 and 2 in the poll.

No, it isn't. It's part of their stated intentions even in their business pamphlets. They're not even trying to hide it.

While they don't get kickbacks, they do get contracts dependent on how "viable" they are thought to be long-term. And currently, that means the more prisoners the better. It's no wonder America is the most incarcerated nation on earth now.

They don't have to be part of the justice system to do this. They just have to encourage institutionalization and find ways to deny rehab opportunities to imates while they're inside, making it more likely they will fail to function on the outside, and in the end return to prison because they either don't have or can't see any viable alternatives besides crime. And they're very successful at that. Prisons themselves often require inmates to form criminal organizations just to avoid assault, these days.
 
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Wow. Touched a nerve, I see.

There is no actual realistic data that proves that utilizing private companies to manage a prison will increase the population of that prison, even when as stated above that prison populations hover around the 90% mark - correlation doesn't imply, much less prove, causation. For those that will not give up the fight, and will continue to point at and link to articles saying such things, please read this: Causation vs Correlation

You see, what some of you folks claim is happening is impossible to be systemic due to laws, regulations, inspectors, auditors, activist groups, and oh yeah, the press. When a very small number of crooks were identified when private management contracts were first started, they were identified very quickly and those involved were sent to - and this is the ironic part - prison.

Rather than saying, that these are "the exception that proves the rule," and given that it is impossible for what many of you believe to be systemic and occurring without hundreds of people going to jail, and since many of you believe it is improbable that a private company would not break the law, maybe we should rather look to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's words instead, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Or, we could just keep banging our heads and railing against the man - private businesses are evil and should never be used by anyone for anything, especially by and for the government, since we know how well the government does stuff.
 
Wow. Touched a nerve, I see.

There is no actual realistic data that proves that utilizing private companies to manage a prison will increase the population of that prison, even when as stated above that prison populations hover around the 90% mark - correlation doesn't imply, much less prove, causation. For those that will not give up the fight, and will continue to point at and link to articles saying such things, please read this: Causation vs Correlation

You see, what some of you folks claim is happening is impossible to be systemic due to laws, regulations, inspectors, auditors, activist groups, and oh yeah, the press. When a very small number of crooks were identified when private management contracts were first started, they were identified very quickly and those involved were sent to - and this is the ironic part - prison.

Rather than saying, that these are "the exception that proves the rule," and given that it is impossible for what many of you believe to be systemic and occurring without hundreds of people going to jail, and since many of you believe it is improbable that a private company would not break the law, maybe we should rather look to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's words instead, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Or, we could just keep banging our heads and railing against the man - private businesses are evil and should never be used by anyone for anything, especially by and for the government, since we know how well the government does stuff.
The fatal flaw in your argument is in relying solely on illegal criteria as your basis. Prison corporations spend a lot of money lobbying legislators for more and tougher laws which spurs more arrests/convictions, lobbying for mandatory minimum sentences which keeps them in longer, and so on. And all of it is absolutely 100% legal.

If there is no causation in the correlation, why do they spend so much on lobbying?

And any notion that a contract should require a minimum number of criminals is simply repugnant. I could see a minimum payout, as there are overhead costs to be considered whether beds are full or empty, but not a minimum number of "clients". These overhead costs would apply whether private or public.
 
The fatal flaw in your argument is in relying solely on illegal criteria as your basis. Prison corporations spend a lot of money lobbying legislators for more and tougher laws which spurs more arrests/convictions, lobbying for mandatory minimum sentences which keeps them in longer, and so on. And all of it is absolutely 100% legal.

And any notion that a contract should require a minimum number of criminals is simply repugnant. I could see a minimum payout, as there are overhead costs to be considered whether beds are full or empty, but not a minimum number of "clients". These overhead costs would apply whether private or public.

I suggest we agree to disagree. I know the processes involved in these type of contracts, and the claim that they lobby for harsher sentences or increased penalties or tougher laws that feed the system, is just not true, because it is impossible. They cannot legally lobby on legislation that has anything to do with their contract income, which they have to swear to each year when they complete their ORCA Reps and Certs.
 
I suggest we agree to disagree. I know the processes involved in these type of contracts, and the claim that they lobby for harsher sentences or increased penalties or tougher laws that feed the system, is just not true, because it is impossible. They cannot legally lobby on legislation that has anything to do with their contract income, which they have to swear to each year when they complete their ORCA Reps and Certs.
Just one question: What are these companies paying for?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...me-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/

"...have funneled more than $10 million to candidates since 1989 and have spent nearly $25 million on lobbying efforts."
 
Just one question: What are these companies paying for?

Ask them. If they're breaking the laws, and committing fraud on their Reps and Certs by saying they are not breaking the law, then lock their ass up. It's actually that simple.

Again, correlation doesn't imply, much less prove, causation.
 
Ask them. If they're breaking the laws, and committing fraud on their Reps and Certs by saying they are not breaking the law, then lock their ass up. It's actually that simple.

Again, correlation doesn't imply, much less prove, causation.
You can't even venture a guess?

Uh huh.
 
If we have to have private prisons... meaning prisons run by private corporations via contract... how should the contracts be structured? Should the corporations be paid...

1) Per inmate,
2) Flat fee (same whether they have 1 "customer" or 1,000),
3) Some combo of #1 & #2,
4) Something else entirely.

Question presumes you get to make the choice how this will be done for all future contracts and renewals. Current scenarios are irrelevant.

And no, we don't have to have them, but we do, and they're not going away anytime soon. It's just a phrase.

The answer involves much more and is not limited to:

1. End the war on drugs including descheduling cannabis

2. No for profit prisons

3. Change sentencing guidelines/no more mandatory sentencing

4. Real prison reform with rehabilitation and successful re-entry into the community as a goal

5. Greatly reduce the militarism of police. Too many state and federal entities have police forces. Texas even has dental police! Give me a feckin break.

6. Real commitment to end poverty and racism in America

7. Accessible mental health counseling
 
i'd prefer not to have private prisons.
 
If private prisons exist, they should get more money based on how well they prevent recidivists from coming back into their system.
 
Ask them. If they're breaking the laws, and committing fraud on their Reps and Certs by saying they are not breaking the law, then lock their ass up. It's actually that simple.

Again, correlation doesn't imply, much less prove, causation.

Dude, you've been provided links by multiple posters with sourcing that show that more than half of private prisons have lockup quotas, with quotes directly from private prison corporations stating that they lobby against pretty much all criminal reform specifically because they want to make more money by having more people in prison. It's right there.

When prison populations and recidivism spike in tandem with increasing prison privatisation, combined with a frankly stated lobbying and contractual effort to lock up more people straight from the mouth of said private prisons, then yes, I think we can say causation has been proven just about as well as it possibly can be. They started out with a stated goal, they lobby and do deals in its favor, and they are getting the expected result.

And they're doing it legally, which in many ways is even worse and more indicative of a sickness at the core of the country than it would be if they weren't. That should scare the hell out of you if you're really someone who believes America should be free.

Why are you so unwilling to actually looking at this?
 
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Wow. Touched a nerve, I see.

No, not really. You made some statements and got some responses..
There is no actual realistic data that proves that utilizing private companies to manage a prison will increase the population of that prison, even when as stated above that prison populations hover around the 90% mark - correlation doesn't imply, much less prove, causation. For those that will not give up the fight, and will continue to point at and link to articles saying such things, please read this: Causation vs Correlation

Which, of course, completely ignores the evidence provided to you that PPs lobby for longer, harsher sentences, more of the WOD, etc... They're protecting their investments.
You see, what some of you folks claim is happening is impossible to be systemic due to laws, regulations, inspectors, auditors, activist groups, and oh yeah, the press. When a very small number of crooks were identified when private management contracts were first started, they were identified very quickly and those involved were sent to - and this is the ironic part - prison.

Rather than saying, that these are "the exception that proves the rule," and given that it is impossible for what many of you believe to be systemic and occurring without hundreds of people going to jail, and since many of you believe it is improbable that a private company would not break the law, maybe we should rather look to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's words instead, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Or, we could just keep banging our heads and railing against the man - private businesses are evil and should never be used by anyone for anything, especially by and for the government, since we know how well the government does stuff.

No one has made the claim that private businesses are 'evil and should never be used by anyone for anything, especially by and for the government'. That's what's known as a 'strawman'.

You can ignore the reality of just how bad an idea PPs are. I choose not to.
 
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