If We Are Born Sinners, Then Why Can't We Be Born Gay?

[Dittohead not!]

"Original sin" is the cause of the fallen nature which continues to haunt mankind to this very day. While this is mitigated to a certain extent by the act of baptism (according to Christian theology, anyway), the fact of the matter is that an inherently sinful nature is something that all human beings will struggle with until the day they die.

In this regard, a natural inclination towards homosexuality would really be no different than any other sinful compulsion from a theological perspective.

Assuming, of course, that a natural inclination towards homosexuality is a sinful compulsion.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

[FONT=Times New Roman]

Yes...see? That's not even close to being right.[/FONT]

Really? does not Psalm 139 Make the claim that the bibles god is all powerful? And isnt the author asking its god to punish the wicked?

Have you even actually read it or just listened to someone tell you what its supposed to mean?

 

[The Baron]

Really? does not Psalm 139 Make the claim that the bibles god is all powerful? And isnt the author asking its god to punish the wicked?

Have you even actually read it or just listened to someone tell you what its supposed to mean?

Of course I've read it! That's how I know what it's about.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

If genetics prove that we all indeed have the genes that make us prone to do things......then that means we're born into it.
What should be the best remedy you propose?

Abort anyone with the genes that makes them gay....or killers.....or pedophiles.....

Or,

Do away with all laws. Make everything acceptable under the sun?

Why should their even be a "rememedy?" It's not an illness; it's not a disease. Oh, and how does it feel to not only make a blatantly false mischaracterization of a group (gays aren't necessarily killers or pedophiles if that's what you're seemingly trying to imply) along with a huge slippery slope fallacy?

 

[lolabird]

Really? does not Psalm 139 Make the claim that the bibles god is all powerful? And isnt the author asking its god to punish the wicked?

Have you even actually read it or just listened to someone tell you what its supposed to mean?

Psalm 139 assures us that God created our inmost being and created each of us exactly the way he planned. He planned our size, the color of our eyes, the color of our skin, everything about us.
He designed each of us to be unique and not to have to conform to someone else's success. He declares that each of are fearfully and wonderfully made.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?

I do argue that they are born that way for that very reason. Sin nature, doesn't mean they should continue to live that way.

 

[Helix]

Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?

given the prevalence of homosexuality in other mammals and how closely it resembles the prevalence of the trait in humans, the "choice" argument is patently ridiculous. the fallback position is that yes, they're born that way, but it's somehow a disorder. this is also ridiculous, and is not worthy of debate.

 

[tosca1]

I think we all have a propensity and inclination to different types of sin. One person may tend toward sexual sin. Another may have the sin of pride or gluttony, etc. We all have a tendency one way or the other. But, that in no way is an argument that somehow makes everything we do A OK.

Yes, I agree. I know where mine lies....

God knows our weaknesses.

 

[tosca1]

I'd like to know the verse of the bible that ranks sins one over the other. Let me know if you find it.

John 11

10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”
11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”


Matthew 11
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[e] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”


Luke 12
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

------------------------

•"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them," (2 Pet. 2:20-21).


"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin," (James 4:17).



Are all sins equal? Are some sins worse than others?
http://carm.org/questions-sins-equal

 

[tosca1]

given the prevalence of homosexuality in other mammals and how closely it resembles the prevalence of the trait in humans, the "choice" argument is patently ridiculous. the fallback position is that yes, they're born that way, but it's somehow a disorder. this is also ridiculous, and is not worthy of debate.

For one thing, humans are not on the very same level as animals. Sure you see some dogs go through the motion of humping a same-sex dog - but I never did see any actual penetration. Anyway, who knows what's going on with the dog or the animal - someone ought to put an animal on the chair and do a real in-depth interview.

As an example, men in prison have sex with men - not because they are homosexuals!

As for humans, the "inclination" usually happens among the young, when sexual curiosity and raging hormones are a factor. Erotic and sensuous imageries - or an outright seduction by the same-sex - can easily "seduce" an immature person (regardless of age) who lacks confidence about him/herself.

 

[tosca1]

Assuming, of course, that a natural inclination towards homosexuality is a sinful compulsion.

In the Bible, yes it is a sin. Whether natural inclination or not - it is clearly stated.

 

[tosca1]

Why should their even be a "rememedy?" It's not an illness; it's not a disease. Oh, and how does it feel to not only make a blatantly false mischaracterization of a group (gays aren't necessarily killers or pedophiles if that's what you're seemingly trying to imply) along with a huge slippery slope fallacy?

Read again.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

In the Bible, yes it is a sin. Whether natural inclination or not - it is clearly stated.

So punishment for a natural action is just?

 

[tosca1]

So punishment for a natural action is just?

Don't ask me.

Suffice it to say that....God is just and merciful.

 

[Helix]

For one thing, humans are not on the very same level as animals. Sure you see some dogs go through the motion of humping a same-sex dog - but I never did see any actual penetration. Anyway, who knows what's going on with the dog or the animal - someone ought to put an animal on the chair and do a real in-depth interview.

As an example, men in prison have sex with men - not because they are homosexuals!

As for humans, the "inclination" usually happens among the young, when sexual curiosity and raging hormones are a factor. Erotic and sensuous imageries - or an outright seduction by the same-sex - can easily "seduce" an immature person (regardless of age) who lacks confidence about him/herself.

List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

like it or not, humans are mammals like any other. we simply have a more developed prefrontal cortex.

when i was almost five years old, i fell for a girl i was going to nursery school with. there was no choice involved; i just liked girls. it's the same thing for a homosexual.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

Don't ask me. I didn't give the rules.

:lol: You just support or enforce them, perhaps?

 

[tosca1]

List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

like it or not, humans are mammals like any other. we simply have a more developed prefrontal cortex.

when i was almost five years old, i fell for a girl i was going to nursery school with. there was no choice involved; i just liked girls. it's the same thing for a homosexual.

KEYWORD: DISPLAYING. But like I said, do we really understand what that's all about? Do we really know what goes on in their heads when they go through the motion of humping a same-sex animal? Do we understand why they go through that motion?

Like I said, men in prison have outright sex with men - would you conclude they are homosexuals?
Same with women in prison - they have sex with women. But are they really gay?

If you have sex with another man (but you've got your eyes closed and pretending he is a woman instead) - how would you characterize that? Yes, you're having actual sex with a same-sex, but in your head you're having sex with an opposite gender. Are you homosexual?


Awww...when I was around that age, another girl and I kissed pretending we're mommy and daddy.....but I am definitely sure I am not gay! And she is not. Had there been a boy playmate, we'd probably be taking turns kissing that boy instead. That happens among young children. There's nothing alarming about that.

I'm sure it's different at certain ages ( pre-adolescent, young teens)....that's part of natural development. Awkward, confused, curiousity, hormones....throw in some psychological factors (no role-models, no one to ask about all these questions). A lot of kids, I'm sure are simply at a confused stage - they only think they are gay!

 

[Helix]

Awww...when I was around that age, another girl and I kissed pretending we're mommy and daddy.....but I am definitely sure I am not gay!
I'm sure it's different at certain ages ( pre-adolescent, young teens)....that's part of natural development. Awkward, confused, curiousity, hormones....thrown in some psychological factors (no role-models, no one to ask about all these questions). A lot of kids, I'm sure are simply at a confused stage - they only think they are gay!

and a lot really are. some try desperately not to be, and fail. that really upsets me.

i asked my parents about homosexuality when i was little, and they answered the question by telling me that some boys like other boys, and some girls like other girls. i'd prefer it if society just looked at it that way and backed off of the moral angle. there's nothing immoral about it, and i would like to see us stop making people feel bad about it.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

John 11

10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”
11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”


Matthew 11
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[e] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”


Luke 12
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

------------------------

•"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them," (2 Pet. 2:20-21).


"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin," (James 4:17).



Are all sins equal? Are some sins worse than others?
http://carm.org/questions-sins-equal

Did you just search for the word "worse" on a bible site? None of that says anything about the sins you hate the most being worse than the ones you do. Sorry, you're a sinner. Picking the sin you hate most then trying to lobby the government against that sin isn't really a biblical concept.

 

[tosca1]

In College, I belonged to a dance troupe. Students joined to avoid doing other stuffs. Our Choreographer and his assistant were openly gay - they're the girly girl types - more feminine than females! Believe me, most men that joined ended up becoming effeminate and some became gays. It became a joke around campus that the dance troupe was a "manufacturer" of gays. Straight men come out gay.
I was close friends with three gays through that troupe - very loud ones (the shrieking type).
The last update I've heard about them - they're all married to women and with children! AND VERY MACHO!
(My girlfriend was happily laughing as she regaled me about this news). Who would've thought they'd be see-sawing from one gender to another? One even married a fellow student from that same school who knew what he was!

 

[tosca1]

and a lot really are. some try desperately not to be, and fail. that really upsets me.

i asked my parents about homosexuality when i was little, and they answered the question by telling me that some boys like other boys, and some girls like other girls. i'd prefer it if society just looked at it that way and backed off of the moral angle. there's nothing immoral about it, and i would like to see us stop making people feel bad about it.

Well, from a Christian standpoint - a practicing Christian cannot endorse or support sex between same gender, I hope you understand that.
If a Christian's ultimate goal is to have eternal life with God and reap the rewards in heaven - there is no other way but to obey God.
However that doesn't mean we don't feel compassion for them - or anyone fighting off or struggling with a very strong temptation (such as an adulterous relationship).

Non-believers may not see things the way we do - but for us Christians, the mission is to spread the Gospel so more people will be saved and gain eternal life. Non-believers live their life for this world.
Christians don't.

 

[tosca1]

Did you just search for the word "worse" on a bible site? None of that says anything about the sins you hate the most being worse than the ones you do. Sorry, you're a sinner. Picking the sin you hate most then trying to lobby the government against that sin isn't really a biblical concept.

:blink:


Well, you did ask:

I'd like to know the verse of the bible that ranks sins one over the other. Let me know if you find it.

Those quotes from the Bible shows clearly that all sins are not the same. Like this line:

"Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

They're pretty much self-explanatory that obviously, some sins will outrank others.


Judging will be done by God alone. How He'll do it and by what measures He'll use, it's all up to Him. Thus most likely we don't have that kind of specific listing is simply because, it's none of our business, perhaps?

 

[Helix]

Well, from a Christian standpoint - a practicing Christian cannot endorse or support sex between same gender, I hope you understand that.
If a Christian's ultimate goal is to have eternal life with God and reap the rewards in heaven - there is no other way but to obey God.
However that doesn't mean we don't feel compassion for them - or anyone fighting off or struggling with a very strong temptation (such as an adulterous relationship).

Non-believers may not see things the way we do - but for us Christians, the mission is to spread the Gospel so more people will be saved and gain eternal life. Non-believers live their life for this world.
Christians don't.

sure they can. Jesus spent none of the new testament talking about homosexuals. Leviticus is essentially a food safety and hygiene guide, and huge swaths of it are currently ignored by practicing Christians. we just have to accept that ancient humans didn't know much about microbiology or sexual orientation.

i'm cool with anyone believing anything they want. when they start making others feel bad about being gay, though, that's unacceptable, and it really isn't consistent with the Christian message.

 

[zgoldsmith23]

sure they can. Jesus spent none of the new testament talking about homosexuals. Leviticus is essentially a food safety and hygiene guide, and huge swaths of it are currently ignored by practicing Christians. we just have to accept that ancient humans didn't know much about microbiology or sexual orientation.

i'm cool with anyone believing anything they want. when they start making others feel bad about being gay, though, that's unacceptable, and it really isn't consistent with the Christian message.

Maybe tosca isn't a Christian, then?

 

[Helix]

Maybe tosca isn't a Christian, then?

i don't think that this is accurate. i understand her interpretation; i simply disagree, and i find that when this interpretation is put into practice, it's inconsistent with the central message of Christianity.