If We Are Born Sinners, Then Why Can't We Be Born Gay?

[Medusa]

No, humans aren't born in sin.
No humans aren't born in sin.

Punctuation matters.

"no " is used in positive sentences with a negative meaning :lol:

 

[Dittohead not!]

"no " is used in positive sentences with a negative meaning :lol:

English frowns on double negatives as well.

Spanish likes them, but English, not so much.
.
If no humans aren't born in sin, then all humans are born in sin. If there should be a comma after "no", then the meaning is the opposite.

Not that I want to be a grammar nazi, but your sentence does lend itself to more than one interpretation.

 

[Medusa]

maybe you should show your nazism to the native speakers who make grammar mistakes such as writing "were " instead of " where , or "your " instead of "you're " etc because the english language lacks perfect fit that means each grapheme dont correspond to just one phoneme :mrgreen:

English frowns on double negatives as well.

Spanish likes them, but English, not so much.
.
If no humans aren't born in sin, then all humans are born in sin. If there should be a comma after "no", then the meaning is the opposite.

Not that I want to be a grammar nazi, but your sentence does lend itself to more than one interpretation.

 

[Shooby]

I think we all have a propensity and inclination to different types of sin. One person may tend toward sexual sin. Another may have the sin of pride or gluttony, etc. We all have a tendency one way or the other. But, that in no way is an argument that somehow makes everything we do A OK.

 

[Rainman05]

Sin is sin. You don't get to pick which sins are worse than others. So looking lustfully at a woman is just as much of a sin as homosexuality is.

When I was a kid I was taught that there are big sins and smaller sins.
As well as sins of the action and sins of the mind.

And while I don't get to pick what sins are worse than others, surely there is somewhere a catalogue of how bad a sin is. Top ranking may be murdering your sibling, sleeping with your sibling, mudering your parents, insulting God... then maybe... murder in general, adultery, abortion... I don't know, fill in the rest. Homosexuality would be in there too somewhere. After all, when the Pope instituted indulgences, not all sins cost the same.

So while looking lustfully at a woman may be the same 'level' of sin as homosexuality (doubt it, I bet homosexuality is bigger) not all sins are the same.

 

[Rainman05]

Original Sin refers to man's natural tendency to sin. Why can't each man have a tendency towards particular sins?

Well, maybe the original sin can be interpreted in that way, but biblically speaking, it's really the original sin, the one that damned us all.

We do. That's why we atone and have communion and confession and all that.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

When I was a kid I was taught that there are big sins and smaller sins.
As well as sins of the action and sins of the mind.

And while I don't get to pick what sins are worse than others, surely there is somewhere a catalogue of how bad a sin is. Top ranking may be murdering your sibling, sleeping with your sibling, mudering your parents, insulting God... then maybe... murder in general, adultery, abortion... I don't know, fill in the rest. Homosexuality would be in there too somewhere. After all, when the Pope instituted indulgences, not all sins cost the same.

So while looking lustfully at a woman may be the same 'level' of sin as homosexuality (doubt it, I bet homosexuality is bigger) not all sins are the same.

I'd like to know the verse of the bible that ranks sins one over the other. Let me know if you find it.

 

[Rainman05]

I'd like to know the verse of the bible that ranks sins one over the other. Let me know if you find it.

Ok.

Here you go:

Mortal sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Venial sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Catholics have one way of looking at it (along with Protestants), Orthodoxy has multiple nuances to what a sin is and if you are guilty of sin.
While I am not providing you with the raw data about the verses regarding sin, this is the summary of those who are professionals in the field and I think we can trust them.

Cheers.

 

[Dittohead not!]

maybe you should show your nazism to the native speakers who make grammar mistakes such as writing "were " instead of " where , or "your " instead of "you're " etc because the english language lacks perfect fit that means each grapheme dont correspond to just one phoneme :mrgreen:

OK, fair enough.

Hey, native English speakers, I'm talking to you!
There is a difference between "were" and "where", between "you're", and "your". Moreover, our native tongue has some pretty illogical spellings in it.

and some languages, evidently including the one spoken by Medusa, actually do use double negatives.

 

[wolfie]

OK, fair enough.

Hey, native English speakers, I'm talking to you!
There is a difference between "were" and "where", between "you're", and "your". Moreover, our native tongue has some pretty illogical spellings in it.

and some languages, evidently including the one spoken by Medusa, actually do use double negatives.

I know...:3oops:..I sometimes cringe..

But hey..How is your fluent Turkish??

 

[Dittohead not!]

I know...:3oops:..I sometimes cringe..

But hey..How is your fluent Turkish??

Pretty limited.
I speak English, Spanish, and French in descending order of fluency, but no Turkish.

 

[Goshin]

Moderator's Warning:

Ditto, Medusa.... there will be chill, okay?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

How would you explain Psalms 139?

Religious zealotry. lol

 

[lolabird]

Religious zealotry. lol

According to all religions? Or just you?

 

[Goshin]

Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?

Born in sin, yes... that's one thing, and part of our fundamental need for redemption.

Deliberately and purposefully continue in sin, as an ongoing daily thing, without repentance is a different thing.

You're oversimplifying.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Moderator's Warning:

Ditto, Medusa.... there will be chill, okay?

My apologies. I'll be good, and more understanding of the grammar of non English speakers.

As for the rest of you..

 

[The Baron]

Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?

As I have always understood the argument from the other side (I’m a non-denominational, Bible-based, Evangelical) if you are “born gay” then obviously God made you that way so then how could being gay be a sin? Another variation of the same argument is that genetics made someone gay (which is equivocated to “God made me gay”). Despite all of the research hoping to prove that very thing, currently there is no evidence to suggest that genetics determines our sexual orientation.

And, yes, you are right to say that we are all “born into sin”. I don’t know if you are aware of what is called “total depravity”. Total depravity is not a term that is found in the Bible but is instead a Christian-term that is used to describe simple truths found in the Bible which is that every part of our personhood was affected by the Fall of Man. Sin has affected us physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, etc.

It is the effects of our own sin and, arguably, the effects of another person’s sin (i.e. a young child is sexually molested and that creates a homosexual desire in a person as some have alleged) that can create a homosexual orientation in an individual and for the record, the Bible does not condemn homosexual orientation--only the homosexual act.

My personal belief is that whatever factors (sin) contribute to the creation of a homosexual orientation in an individual it must take place after the child has been born and is capable of taking-in and processing the events affecting his / her homosexuality vs. simply being born with that orientation.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

According to all religions? Or just you?

I dont speak for anyone but myself. I did what you asked, I explained Psalms 139 as being Religious zealotry. I would have gone farther but your question was plain and simple.

 

[The Baron]

I dont speak for anyone but myself. I did what you asked, I explained Psalms 139 as being Religious zealotry. I would have gone farther but your question was plain and simple.

Psalm 139 is about an omniscient, omnipresent God.

I have no idea where you get "religious zealotry".

 

[Gathomas88]

Original Sin refers to man's natural tendency to sin. Why can't each man have a tendency towards particular sins?

The whole point of original sin is that it is something a person is supposed to overcome.

A person may not be able to determine how they are born, but behavior is always a personal choice.

 

[Dittohead not!]

The whole point of original sin is that it is something a person is supposed to overcome.

A person may not be able to determine how they are born, but behavior is always a personal choice.

The "original sin" was Adam disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit.
So, how do you overcome a sin committed by a fictional character thousands of years ago?
No, I think we're supposed to work on the sins we all commit and perhaps quit committing them over and over again.

 

[Gathomas88]

The "original sin" was Adam disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit.
So, how do you overcome a sin committed by a fictional character thousands of years ago?
No, I think we're supposed to work on the sins we all commit and perhaps quit committing them over and over again.

"Original sin" is the cause of the fallen nature which continues to haunt mankind to this very day. While this is mitigated to a certain extent by the act of baptism (according to Christian theology, anyway), the fact of the matter is that an inherently sinful nature is something that all human beings will struggle with until the day they die.

In this regard, a natural inclination towards homosexuality would really be no different than any other sinful compulsion from a theological perspective.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Psalm 139 is about an omniscient, omnipresent God.

I have no idea where you get "religious zealotry".

Well that would be part of it.

Psalm 139 is a guy saying: "My god is the greatest of all gods and will kick your ass if you dont obey it." Which is entirely religious and definitely zealotry.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Are people still disputing that sexual orientation is innate, not learned? Huh.

Of course, some people are on a spectrum and can go either way. But it's still innate.

One question which is always fun to ask is "did you choose to be heterosexual?". Responses tend to be interesting.

 

[The Baron]

[FONT=Times New Roman]

Well that would be part of it.

Psalm 139 is a guy saying: "My god is the greatest of all gods and will kick your ass if you dont obey it." Which is entirely religious and definitely zealotry.

Yes...see? That's not even close to being right.[/FONT]