If Jesus were not crucified and resurrected ,would you still believe in Him ?

[laska]

I've never heard that and I doubt it is true. What most say is that Mormons aren't real Christians because:

1. They reject the trinity
2. They reject biblical inerrancy or even biblical infallibility
3. They have added to the canon of scripture

Of all the problems that evangelicals have with Mormons, a disagreement with their emphasis on sanctification simply isn't one of them.

To clarify on the three things listed above, 1. it depends on how you define the trinity as the LDS do believe in the Godhead that consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. They reject the way the Catholic church would later define the trinity. The LDS believe the oneness of the Godhead is three individual beings united in purpose and not some weird three essences of one being. And the LDS believe the Father is greater than the Son and Holy Ghost. That Jesus, a separate being than the Father is subordinate to the Father. 2. the LDS believe the Bible is the word of God "as far as it is translated correctly". The LDS do believe the Bible where it has been translated correctly is the infallible word of God. 3. The LDS believes the following: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." There is nowhere in the Bible that states the Bible is the only time God would speak to mankind. Many that hold the view the Bible was meant to be all God reveals take one little verse in the Book of Revelation warning about adding to the book like this meant adding to the Bible when it is pretty obvious John was talking about future translators adding to his Book of Revelation as the Bible had not even been organized yet. The same warning of not adding to the book is given in Deuteronomy, which if interpreted to mean all of the canon of scriptures like they do with the verse in Revelation, would put many Old Testament books and the New Testament in the same category as the Book of Mormon and other LDS revelations of adding to the canon of scriptures.

 

[CrabCake]

Here's an example from the Mormon Research Ministry which describes itself the following way: "Evangelical Christian ministry challenging the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.":

“We're Christians just like you!� | Mormonism Research Ministry

Your claim was:

many Evangelical Christians say Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important.

You just linked to a web site that shows some 14 or 15 problems that a specific evangelical group has with Mormons. Now, answer these two questions honestly:

1. Do you believe that this statement: Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important is a fair and accurate summary of this statement: Though Christians are saved “unto good works” (Ephesians 2:10), the good works of a Christians do not justify (or make right) the believer before God. The apostle Paul made this very clear when he wrote, “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).?

2. Do you believe it is accurate to claim that this statement: many Evangelical Christians say Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important. is an honest summary of the problem evangelicals have with Mormonism given the fact you just linked to web site which shows some 14 or 15 different issues, only one of which has even a passing resemblance to that?

The website you linked to actually does more to disprove your position than to support it.

 

[laska]

Your claim was:


You just linked to a web site that shows some 14 or 15 problems that a specific evangelical group has with Mormons. Now, answer these two questions honestly:

1. Do you believe that this statement: Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important is a fair and accurate summary of this statement: Though Christians are saved “unto good works” (Ephesians 2:10), the good works of a Christians do not justify (or make right) the believer before God. The apostle Paul made this very clear when he wrote, “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).?

2. Do you believe it is accurate to claim that this statement: many Evangelical Christians say Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important. is an honest summary of the problem evangelicals have with Mormonism given the fact you just linked to web site which shows some 14 or 15 different issues, only one of which has even a passing resemblance to that?

The website you linked to actually does more to disprove your position than to support it.

No I won't take it back because it is a true statement and where did I say it was the sole reason they reject the LDS as Christian. The link I provided shows Evangelicals implying LDS were not real Christians listing a number of reasons including because the LDS believe it takes both grace and works on our part for salvation instead of just grace and no requirements other than faith on our parts. The link to Mormon Research Ministry clearly shows this when the author writes: "Christians are saved by grace coupled with works?" And then concluded the LDS are wrong by quoting the verses from Paul that seem to say works are unnecessary. The link I gave Medusa gives the nuanced understanding of the LDS position that while no matter what good works we do without grace we fall short it doesn't mean we still must not do good works on our part such as repentance, diligence and obedience in keeping the commandments, etc, to access the full grace of eternal life. And some Evangelicals do have a problem with this LDS position.

 

[CrabCake]

No I won't take it back because it is a true statement and where did I say it was the sole reason they reject the LDS as Christian. The link I provided shows Evangelicals implying LDS were not real Christians listing a number of reasons including because the LDS believe it takes both grace and works on our part for salvation instead of just grace and no requirements other than faith on our parts. The link to Mormon Research Ministry clearly shows this when the author writes: "Christians are saved by grace coupled with works?" And then concluded the LDS are wrong by quoting the verses from Paul that seem to say works are unnecessary. The link I gave Medusa gives the nuanced understanding of the LDS position that while no matter what good works we do without grace we fall short it doesn't mean we still must not do good works on our part such as repentance, diligence and obedience in keeping the commandments, etc, to access the full grace of eternal life. And some Evangelicals do have a problem with this LDS position.

I think we can all read what you claimed and what the evidence says side by side. Then we can just let everyone draw their own conclusion about whether your claim was accurate or not. I gave you the chance to modify your claim, but you claim it is honest. I'll put the claims side by side here again for everyone reading to decide whether you were being honest or not.


laska claims that this statement: Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important is a fair and accurate interpretation of this statement: Though Christians are saved “unto good works” (Ephesians 2:10), the good works of a Christians do not justify (or make right) the believer before God. The apostle Paul made this very clear when he wrote, “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

He also claims that this statement: Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important is a fair and accurate summary of this 15-part article on why Mormons should not be considered Christian. http://www.debatepolitics.com/redir...//www.mrm.org/we-are-christians-just-like-you


You be the judge.

 

[laska]

I think we can all read what you claimed and what the evidence says side by side. Then we can just let everyone draw their own conclusion about whether your claim was accurate or not. I gave you the chance to modify your claim, but you claim it is honest. I'll put the claims side by side here again for everyone reading to decide whether you were being honest or not.


laska claims that this statement: Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important is a fair and accurate interpretation of this statement: Though Christians are saved “unto good works” (Ephesians 2:10), the good works of a Christians do not justify (or make right) the believer before God. The apostle Paul made this very clear when he wrote, “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

He also claims that this statement: Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important is a fair and accurate summary of this 15-part article on why Mormons should not be considered Christian. http://www.debatepolitics.com/redir...//www.mrm.org/we-are-christians-just-like-you


You be the judge.

First if you are going to quote me, quote me accurately as it may cause confusion. I stated "Yeah, many Evangelical Christians say Mormons are not real Christians because we believe those virtue ethics are important."

The problem you are having is that you are not comprehending what the Evangelical author in the link is saying in context. When he is quoting the Book of Mormon 'We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’ he is implying that passage in the BoM is false. Given the LDS believe that it is grace that we are saved but we still have to be diligent in this life in doing the virtue ethics, what the author is implying then by criticizing the BoM verse is that we don't have to "do all we can do" ie be diligent as best we can in this life to attain eternal life. You even seemed to imply this earlier in the thread when you responded to Medusa's "Christians must be believing they can stay selfish and ignorant because Jesus already died for them!" with "Technically, they can. But what a waste of a life that would be when God had so much more for them." The LDS though believe that technically faith without works is not the type of faith that inherits eternal life:

James 2:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[laska]

I've never heard that and I doubt it is true. What most say is that Mormons aren't real Christians because:

1. They reject the trinity
2. They reject biblical inerrancy or even biblical infallibility
3. They have added to the canon of scripture

Of all the problems that evangelicals have with Mormons, a disagreement with their emphasis on sanctification simply isn't one of them.

Here is another link for you: The Difference Between Christian Grace and Mormon Grace | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Cable]

Qoran claims he was neither crucified nor resurrected but muslims accept him as a holy prophet not matter what he is .the same thing is valid for all christians ?the Parables of Christ would not be worth believing if he was just a normal prophet ? the main teaching of Christianity is really based on his resurrection ? if so why ? He was different than many other prophets and used to have a more spiritual way of life too.resurrection is needed ?

thanks for voting

The parts of what he said about living a good life are but a small part of his message, so I have to ask, if he didn't die for us and rise again, believe in what?
There are plenty of pretty good men who have given us advice. The fact that he died for me and is risen IS what we believe. Our hope is there.


12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hopeb in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[Cable]

Here is another link for you: The Difference Between Christian Grace and Mormon Grace | Cold Case Christianity

That was an interesting read!

 

[laska]

That was an interesting read!

It's an article that should diffuse the criticism from CrabCake. It's one of the few articles by an Evangelical who writes about the LDS religion in a "they are not real Christians" way that I find honest and without a bunch of errors. The ladder analogy is a good analogy imo.

Another article I'd recommend: FATAL FLAWS IN THE "EVANGELICAL" THEORY OF SALVATION
by Eugene Seaich.
Mormons and Salvation: Faith, Grace, and Works - "Mormon" Doctrine - What Does It Take to Be Saved?

 

[Cable]

It's an article that should diffuse the criticism from CrabCake. It's one of the few articles by an Evangelical who writes about the LDS religion in a "they are not real Christians" way that I find honest and without a bunch of errors. The ladder analogy is a good analogy imo.

Another article I'd recommend: FATAL FLAWS IN THE "EVANGELICAL" THEORY OF SALVATION
by Eugene Seaich.
Mormons and Salvation: Faith, Grace, and Works - "Mormon" Doctrine - What Does It Take to Be Saved?

This one I don't find nearly as interesting. I have some understanding of Mormonism: not an extensive understanding. But it appears to me in many ways to contradict the gospels.
But perhaps this isn't the thread to discuss the matter.

 

[fmw]

then why are you posting in this forum?
this is the religious forum. you asked a question I gave you an answer.
I never understood people like you. you come into a religious setting as a religious question.
get the answer to your question then from some no stance position claim that it isn't.

if you didn't want to know the answer or where not interested in the answer then why post?
better yet why even ask the question?

and no Jesus Christ redeemed the world and provided a way to forgive sin.
PS people save other people all the time so you are wrong.

I think most people call it trolling.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

The reason that His death and resurrection was so important is the atonement of sin.
Without that we are all still lost with 0 chance of salvation. There would be 0 atonement of sin.

See, I don't get that at all. Assuming we take the Bible at face value, there was no real sacrifice. He suffered for part of a day and would then spend eternity as King of heaven. Oh no, how horrible. And the torture he received wasn't even worse than so many others have received throughout time. Had the sinless Jesus gone to Hell and was still there burning for all eternity then that would certainly be the ultimate sacrifice. But that isn't what happened.

 

[American]

I'm no Christian, but as I understand the mythology, without the crucifixion and resurrection...he wouldn't have been "Christ"?

Right?

1 Corinthians 15:13] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised;
[14] if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

 

[laska]

See, I don't get that at all. Assuming we take the Bible at face value, there was no real sacrifice. He suffered for part of a day and would then spend eternity as King of heaven. Oh no, how horrible. And the torture he received wasn't even worse than so many others have received throughout time. Had the sinless Jesus gone to Hell and was still there burning for all eternity then that would certainly be the ultimate sacrifice. But that isn't what happened.

I'd recommend the book The Infinite Atonement by Tad Callister. The bulk if not all of the Atonement was performed in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus experienced so much pain that He bled from ever pore as He suffered the consequences of every persons' sins who have ever been born or ever will be born on an infinite number of earths past, present, future. The amount of pain it takes to sweat even a drop of blood apparently is so enormous it would immediately kill a person. Jesus being half immortal could not die, which would have been a welcome relief. Only He could give up His life. And there is a thing called relativity. Time is relative. Somehow in the space of what appeared to be hours to His apostles, to Jesus the time and pain of suffering was infinite. The mortal mind cannot fully comprehend the depths of it. Because He went below all things, the Atonement is above all things, has infinite healing powers of life. It is the most noble act by infinity of any act performed in infinity. The only motive that could have done it was pure infinite love for those He suffered for. Any other motive such as power could not have accomplished it.

Comprehending God's Plan of Salvation is key to understanding why the Atonement is necessary.

 

[laska]

"...The Atonement began in Gethsemane and continued on Golgotha until the Savior himself declared on the cross, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The immediate consequence of the Atonement was manifest in Christ’s resurrection, but the impact of the Atonement is felt each time one of our Father’s children experiences the miracle of forgiveness..." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/01/the-fall-and-infinite-atonement?lang=eng

 

[CrabCake]

See, I don't get that at all. Assuming we take the Bible at face value, there was no real sacrifice. He suffered for part of a day and would then spend eternity as King of heaven. Oh no, how horrible. And the torture he received wasn't even worse than so many others have received throughout time. Had the sinless Jesus gone to Hell and was still there burning for all eternity then that would certainly be the ultimate sacrifice. But that isn't what happened.

That's one of the weaknesses of the penal substitution model of the atonement (and some of the other substitutionary atonement models). But that is not the only understanding of the atonement. There are various understandings, or models, of the atonement that all help us to wrap our heads around what happened on the cross.

This is a pretty neat video to whet your appetite in exploring atonement theories:

 

[vesper]

Moses and Muhammed did not rise from dead ? they were fake ?God's message can not be passed without this ?

NO Moses was not a fake. Scripture tells me that G-d buried him. Who buried Muhammed?

Jesus/Yeshua, is identified as the Son of Man, Son of G-d using the Prophets of old. There was no New Covenent while Yeshua was among us. It was the writings of the prophets that allowed Jews to recognize him as their Messiah. He fulfilled the Passover lamb without blemish. He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits with his resurrection. He fulfilled the Feast of unleavened bread as he was without sin. He fulfilled the feast of Pentecost because once he returned to the Father the Spirit of the Lord poured out in Jerusalem that day becoming the comforter Yeshua promised.

I have no doubt you have a problem with this because your belief is different.

But for believers Yeshua fulfilled every Spring Feast G-d had put into place. The only thing left to be fulfilled are the Fall Feasts that G-d put into place thousands of years ago that are solely the involvement of the Jewish people.

 

[laska]

NO Moses was not a fake. Scripture tells me that G-d buried him. Who buried Muhammed?

Jesus/Yeshua, is identified as the Son of Man, Son of G-d using the Prophets of old. There was no New Covenent while Yeshua was among us. It was the writings of the prophets that allowed Jews to recognize him as their Messiah. He fulfilled the Passover lamb without blemish. He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits with his resurrection. He fulfilled the Feast of unleavened bread as he was without sin. He fulfilled the feast of Pentecost because once he returned to the Father the Spirit of the Lord poured out in Jerusalem that day becoming the comforter Yeshua promised.

I have no doubt you have a problem with this because your belief is different.

But for believers Yeshua fulfilled every Spring Feast G-d had put into place. The only thing left to be fulfilled are the Fall Feasts that G-d put into place thousands of years ago that are solely the involvement of the Jewish people.

Sacred Calendar expert John Pratt:
"There are two great festival seasons on the Hebrew calendar. The Hebrew civil year begins and ends in the fall, with the midpoint of the year being in the spring. The spring festival of Passover at the meridian of the year apparently symbolizes the first coming of Christ at the meridian of time.[1] The larger celebration in the fall apparently symbolizes events pertaining to the Second Coming at the end of time. In other words, the Hebrew year is like a miniature of the history of the world: The opening events in the fall are related to Adam and Eve and the beginning of history, the mid-year events symbolize the Savior's first coming, and the fall events have the double symbolism of also representing latter-day events and the second coming of Christ in the last days. The Lord has told us of this symbolism and that he thinks of all history as modeled by a single year. For example, referring to all the combined weeks, months and years of the planets, he states, "All these are one year with God, but not with man" (D&C 88:44)."

One of the latter day events is that the Angel Moroni delivered the gold plates to Joseph Smith, from which the Book of Mormon was translated, on Sept 22 1827, which was the Feast of Trumpets. That day also aligned with the Autumn Solstice. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/01/the-golden-plates-and-the-feast-of-trumpets?lang=eng

 

[Medusa]

NO Moses was not a fake. Scripture tells me that G-d buried him. Who buried Muhammed?

Jesus/Yeshua, is identified as the Son of Man, Son of G-d using the Prophets of old. There was no New Covenent while Yeshua was among us. It was the writings of the prophets that allowed Jews to recognize him as their Messiah. He fulfilled the Passover lamb without blemish. He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits with his resurrection. He fulfilled the Feast of unleavened bread as he was without sin. He fulfilled the feast of Pentecost because once he returned to the Father the Spirit of the Lord poured out in Jerusalem that day becoming the comforter Yeshua promised.

I have no doubt you have a problem with this because your belief is different.

But for believers Yeshua fulfilled every Spring Feast G-d had put into place. The only thing left to be fulfilled are the Fall Feasts that G-d put into place thousands of years ago that are solely the involvement of the Jewish people.

I cant have a problem with your beliefs ,I already accept these as a muslim unlike you .Muhammed was fake ? You may have a problem with it

 

[laska]

This one I don't find nearly as interesting. I have some understanding of Mormonism: not an extensive understanding. But it appears to me in many ways to contradict the gospels.
But perhaps this isn't the thread to discuss the matter.

This is the LDS view on faith/good works and it is consistent with the gospels. Not trying to start a debate in this thread, just received this on twitter and wanted to share.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Qoran claims he was neither crucified nor resurrected but muslims accept him as a holy prophet not matter what he is .the same thing is valid for all christians ?the Parables of Christ would not be worth believing if he was just a normal prophet ? the main teaching of christianity is really based on his resurrection ? if so why ? He was different than many other prophets and used to have a more spiritual way of life too.resurrection is needed ?

thanks for voting

The Quran would have been better off using the Prince Of Peace as a example to follow, instead of the perversions of Mohammed.

Oh wait..... we are talking about Muslims.

Sorry!

 

[Medusa]

The Quran would have been better off using the Prince Of Peace as a example to follow, instead of the perversions of Mohammed.

Oh wait..... we are talking about Muslims.

Sorry!

It seems Christians didnt follow jesus either!!!!!

 

[fmw]

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.

Or so says the bible.