If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free [W:1235:1274]*****************

[BretJ]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Trying to rationalize the practice of slavery is the definition of a losing argument.

Why does it need rationalization. It was lawful and not at all evil at that time apparently. Of course modern day slavery is evil now because the majority and the government say so.

 

[BretJ]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

:lamo

It would be funny if I did not feel sorry for you....

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Nope. Government remains the representatives of the people, not the people themselves. Government pretty regularly tries to take away rights without the consent of the governed. You make another mistake. We aren't a democracy, we are a representative republic. In the sense that there are multiple roadblocks beyond a simple majority to even try to remove rights.

Oh my god. Again with the constitutional republic as if everyone does not know that. We have a government that governs with the consent of the governed. And we the people create our rights thru this government. Duh.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Me neither.

Especially the rationalization in taking away someones rights because the majority says its okay.

I have not read anyone in this discussion advocating such a thing.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Actually the work has already been done haymarket. You have made your bed of contradictory premises.

You have been given an attempt to clarify those points.. and you refuse to do so.. indicates that the position you hold.. is EXACTLY what others believe it means.

And still you come up empty with any support for claims about what I said.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Lie. You argue for limitations on the 2nd amendment at nearly every turn. How patently dishonest.

Then you should absolutely no trouble providing a quote from me advocating taking away some Second Amendment rights.

Or you should apologize for this slur.

Of course, based on your past record, you will do neither.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I don't like it because it is flawed thinking and just intellectually lazy.

And if people fight back to retain that right? Does the government retain consent or have they slipped into tyranny? Don't bother answering its more an ethical case by case consideration, there is no cookie cutter answer.

Why would I or anyone care what you like or not when you fail to present any argument with evidence for any other position?

If people fight to retain their rights, that is a good thing and we can hope they will prevail.

 

[jet57]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Nope. Government remains the representatives of the people, not the people themselves. Government pretty regularly tries to take away rights without the consent of the governed. You make another mistake. We aren't a democracy, we are a representative republic. In the sense that there are multiple roadblocks beyond a simple majority to even try to remove rights.

So, government is a robotic exercise.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Why does it need rationalization. It was lawful and not at all evil at that time apparently. Of course modern day slavery is evil now because the majority and the government say so.

You really need to go back and read the exchange.

 

[Zyphlin]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Moderator's Warning:

I suggest posts focus on the topic, and the arguments, of THIS thread going forward. The baiting and flaming needs to end, as well as the posts that are not dealing with discussing the topic but rather each other

 

[BretJ]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

You really need to go back and read the exchange.

Had he been discussing modern day slavery, I would agree that it is rationalization. Since the discussion dealt with early American slavery, and we have determined it was not evil at that point in history, it was not rationalization of an evil act. The majority said so through their elected government.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Had he been discussing modern day slavery, I would agree that it is rationalization. Since the discussion dealt with early American slavery, and we have determined it was not evil at that point in history, it was not rationalization of an evil act. The majority said so through their elected government.

Any excuse for supporting slavery at any time in our nation is excuse making and rationalization of the unforgivable.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Any excuse for supporting slavery at any time in our nation is excuse making and rationalization of the unforgivable.

Where in the world was slavery illegal in 1787?

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Where in the world was slavery illegal in 1787?

In 221-206 BC: The Qin Dynasty's measures to eliminate the landowning aristocracy include the abolition of slavery and the establishment of a free peasantry who owed taxes and labor to the state.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

In 221-206 BC: The Qin Dynasty's measures to eliminate the landowning aristocracy include the abolition of slavery and the establishment of a free peasantry who owed taxes and labor to the state.

Are you claiming that there was no slavery during the Qin Dynasty? A search on "Qin Slavery" will show many more resources claiming that slavery was rampant during that period, and indeed existing in some parts of China into the 20th century.

In any case, the question was about slavery in 1787.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Are you claiming that there was no slavery during the Qin Dynasty? A search on "Qin Slavery" will show many more resources claiming that slavery was rampant during that period, and indeed existing in some parts of China into the 20th century.

In any case, the question was about slavery in 1787.

Slavery exists in the US today.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Slavery exists in the US today.

I'm still wondering where slavery was illegal in 1787, to see which countries and empires recognized how bad slavery was.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I'm still wondering where slavery was illegal in 1787, to see which countries and empires recognized how bad slavery was.

I think it was 2 years later for England but my memory may be wrong

 

[BretJ]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Any excuse for supporting slavery at any time in our nation is excuse making and rationalization of the unforgivable.

Are you saying it is universally evil? If the majority and government said it was acceptable to hold another person as a slave, then that means they did not have that right in the first place and it is justifiable. What rights were being denied?

 

[OldFatGuy]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

You can call a reeking pile of crap anything you want to including fine treasure. Its still a reeking pile of crap.

No matter how hard you try to rewrite history, the truth remains in place. Slavery, for much, if not most, of man's existence was considered moral.

I'm not objecting to your opinion, in fact I concur, but the way it was won't change.

I forget whose diary I once read long ago, a Union officer who had led guerrilla outfit which had liberated a plantation, and told all the slaves they were freed. They chose not to leave the plantation, citing this was their home, this was where the were comfortable and secure. When I read that I was stunned, to say the least. Later, as I read of similar actions, those that were liberated from various repressions and suppressions of individuality and personal freedoms, this reaction was more common than I had expected throughout history. I have no doubt modern psychologists and sociologists could arrive with all sorts of explanations, but it would all be speculation by modern standards without honest empathy.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

LOL Mexicans get their guns from America. If America had gun control there would be far less gun violence in Mexico.

That's what some of the cartel members claimed, but when the Federales investigated, they found most of weapons not lawfully owned in Mexico were of Bulgarian origin via Venezuela, and weapons originating from Brazil. The Bulgarians make superior arms compared to our own and less expensive, and the Brazilians manufacture much less expensive arms of lower quality. As in Columbia, the rancheros are more voluminously armed than the criminals. They are not in conflict with government or organized crime, but the banditos who rustle cattle and kill for shoes.

Mexico outlawed private gun ownership to end the cycles of peasant revolutions. Whether or not it worked is another story. The issues underlying Mexican revolutions, when the agrarian culture was dominant, was land reform. Now in an industrialized Mexico it is fair wages. Time will tell.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

So everybody owned slaves in the 1700's and had no choice in the matter? :doh:roll::shock: For that would have to be true for your statement to have any rational validity at all.

Not everyone owned slaves, but those who did never shared your modern vision of right and wrong.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

That's what some of the cartel members claimed, but when the Federales investigated, they found most of weapons not lawfully owned in Mexico were of Bulgarian origin via Venezuela, and weapons originating from Brazil. The Bulgarians make superior arms compared to our own and less expensive, and the Brazilians manufacture much less expensive arms of lower quality. As in Columbia, the rancheros are more voluminously armed than the criminals. They are not in conflict with government or organized crime, but the banditos who rustle cattle and kill for shoes.

Mexico outlawed private gun ownership to end the cycles of peasant revolutions. Whether or not it worked is another story. The issues underlying Mexican revolutions, when the agrarian culture was dominant, was land reform. Now in an industrialized Mexico it is fair wages. Time will tell.

Nice stories but you are wrong about the guns. 70% of weapons seized from cartel members were of US origin.

From 2009 to 2014, more than 73,000 guns that were seized in Mexico were traced to the U.S., according to a new update on the effort to fight weapons trafficking along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The figure, based on data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, represents about 70 percent of the 104,850 firearms seized by Mexican authorities that were also submitted to U.S. authorities for tracing.

The data was analyzed by the Government Accountability Office, which notes in its report that U.S. police agencies have acknowledged firearms smuggling is fueling violent crime in Mexico.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/12/462781469/in-mexico-tens-of-thousands-of-illegal-guns-come-from-the-u-s

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Nice stories but you are wrong about the guns. 70% of weapons seized from cartel members were of US origin.



https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/12/462781469/in-mexico-tens-of-thousands-of-illegal-guns-come-from-the-u-s

The claim is "70 percent of the 104,850 firearms seized by Mexican authorities that were also submitted to U.S. authorities for tracing." Of the guns that were submitted for tracing, 70% were of US origin. That in no way implies that 70% of all guns captured by Mexican authorities were from the US. It also allows for a significant portion of those US origin guns to have been US military arms acquired from other Central American countries militaries, not from US retail sources. The fully automatic weapons and RPGs used by the cartels certainly did not originate in the US.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Are you saying it is universally evil? If the majority and government said it was acceptable to hold another person as a slave, then that means they did not have that right in the first place and it is justifiable. What rights were being denied?

Slavery started here long before a majority ever spoke out either way about the practice.