If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free [W:1235:1274]*****************

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Some here on the right side of the political spectrum seem to have trouble with reality.

They need this belief system to claim they are victims

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

They need this belief system to claim they are victims

And they need their belief system to reinforce their alternate reality where beliefs are more important than fact and hard reality.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

“When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns,” goes the scary saying, which of course is right. The way laws “actually work” is that you fine or arrest the people who speed, rob banks, or sell guns illegally. Get your gun legally to protect your self, including from those who buy them illegally. Pay taxes so the sheriff can arrest those who buy or sell them illegally. It’s called civilization, law and order, common sense, etc. Can apply to guns, loan sharks, pet owners abuse their dogs, people who pull fire alarms when there is no fire, shout fire in a crowded theater, whatever rule or law that infringes on a generally accepted right for proper purposes.

on the great scheme of things- the government doesn't have the time or the resources to even enforce violations of the current background check now. less than one tenth of one percent of felons who lie on form 4473 have been prosecuted for what is almost a strict liability felony (claiming under oath you aren't a felon when you are). so the main purpose of liberals pushing Universal background checks is to hassle people who follow even stupid laws-rather than trying to actually enforce laws against criminals. Its also to create a demand among the low wattage voters who WANT SOMETHING DONE, to demand registration because anyone who understands this issue, understands that you cannot enforce a private sale BGC law without complete registration of all legally owned guns currently

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

The membership got tired of appeasement and compromise with people who clearly weren't about crime control but rather pandering to the public and pretending that their goals was stopping violent street crime

as to machine guns, several hundred thousand are legally owned and the reason they were banned (those made after May 19, 1986) had nothing to do with crime-indeed there are maybe one or two cases in 80 years of legal machine guns being used for a violent crime

Supposedly no crimes have ever been committed in the USA with machine-guns or full automatics that were legally owned. There has been some crime committed with M-16s that were imported illegally from Mexico, which goes to show you that the illegal gun importation between Mexico and the USA is not always from USA to Mexico, it goes the other way too.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Nice try at a diversion since you are getting badly beat on the issue here.

Actually, we're having a purely philosophical discussion. There is no badly beat. You can no more prove that there are no natural or divine rights that I can prove that there are. From a neutral perspective the view of a government behaving in a manner that infringes rights looks exactly like a government performing the same actions on someone who has no rights. Observationally, there is no difference.

I don't like slavery. I don't support slavery. I wish there never was any slavery.

Why don't you like slavery? Why don't you support slavery? Why do you wish there was never slavery? If they have no rights, what does it matter? Why is it wrong?

And none of my opinions change the reality that slaves did not have rights.

Prove it. Prove that they had no natural rights that were infringed by government.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I'll answer. Yes its a bad thing...in MY opinion. So is the Patriots winning the super bowl again. LOL

If slaves have no rights, why is slavery bad?

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Actually, we're having a purely philosophical discussion.

I do NOT waste my time on purely philosophical discussions. I am discussing reality in the real world.

Why don't you like slavery? Why don't you support slavery? Why do you wish there was never slavery? If they have no rights, what does it matter? Why is it wrong?

Because people are not things to be owned or sold.

Prove that they had no natural rights that were infringed by government.

They were held in slavery and had no rights - natural, legal, constitutional, contractual or any other kind. That is the historical record.

If you assert they did have natural rights - present your case.

You do know that you cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove that there are not three inch monkeys made out of blue flame that play a version of professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. But if you say there are - its up to YOU to prove it and not me to disprove your claim. Thats how it works.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

So, why didn't blacks in this country have the God given rights until at least 1965?

Because blacks weren't treated fairly. As awesome a country as the USA is its not perfect. That was one of the mistakes we made which hopefully we can learn from.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

If slaves have no rights, why is slavery bad?

I think it is bad in my opinion. I also don't like peas in my opinion.

 

[gfm7175]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I believe that there are plenty of rights.

That is foolish for you to say such a thing.

But how is anything a right if the government fully controls it and can take it away from you on a whim... Wouldn't that rather be the definition of a privilege?

You believe that everything is a privilege granted to you by the government, and that nothing is truly a right that is owned by the individual.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Yeah, so; what's your point?

My point is that if the government has a registry of who owns what in terms of guns, if they were to pass an unconstitutional ban on firearms, and a ban on firearms would be unconstitutional, they would be able to seize all the guns since they know who has what. Just as they did in Australia and the UK.

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I do NOT waste my time on purely philosophical discussions. I am discussing reality in the real world.

How do you think the way you do without any philosophy behind it?

Because people are not things to be owned or sold.

In reality, they have been and they still are, in places where they have no rights. That's reality in the real world. Or do you hold to some philosophy that requires a belief that people are not things to be owned or sold?

They were held in slavery and had no rights - natural, legal, constitutional, contractual or any other kind. That is the historical record.

What if they had all of those rights but the government held that it was allowable to violate and repress all of those rights? Would the difference be visible to an outside observer?

If you assert they did have natural rights - present your case.

You do know that you cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove that there are not three inch monkeys made out of blue flame that play a version of professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus. But if you say there are - its up to YOU to prove it and not me to disprove your claim. Thats how it works.

True, neither of us can prove a negative. You cannot prove the non-existence of natural rights anymore than I can prove that they exist. If we do have natural rights, and the government ignores/represses/dismisses them, there is no difference between that action and the exact same action of a government acting the same way on people with no rights.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

But how is anything a right if the government fully controls it and can take it away from you on a whim... Wouldn't that rather be the definition of a privilege?

You believe that everything is a privilege granted to you by the government, and that nothing is truly a right that is owned by the individual.

What difference does it make? If driving is a privlidge can it revoke the drivers licenses of every person with a last name starting with the letter A? Of course not

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Fair enough, good response. But let’s cut to the chase. What’s wrong with the type of gun control the Supremes acknowledged was ok?

Fill me in again, what kind of gun control did the Supremes acknowledge?

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Why should I in anyway be concerned that machine guns are banned? I am happy to know that my eccentric neighbor can’t buy one.

Are you afraid your eccentric neighbor is going to shoot you?

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

How do you think the way you do without any philosophy behind it?

I do not waste my time on philosophy.

In reality, they have been and they still are, in places where they have no rights. That's reality in the real world. Or do you hold to some philosophy that requires a belief that people are not things to be owned or sold?

I gave you my opinion. Slavery treats people as objects or things and they are not objects or things.

True, neither of us can prove a negative. You cannot prove the non-existence of natural rights anymore than I can prove that they exist. If we do have natural rights, and the government ignores/represses/dismisses them, there is no difference between that action and the exact same action of a government acting the same way on people with no rights

False. I cannot prove that something that does not exist does in fact not exist. But if you claim something does exist - in this case natural rights - it is incumbent upon you to prove it.

Can you?

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

What difference does it make? If driving is a privlidge can it revoke the drivers licenses of every person with a last name starting with the letter A? Of course not

Why couldn't they revoke the licenses of everyone whose last name begins with an A? They have the power to, for sure. They've told you when you could buy gas based purely on some numbers on your license plate.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Trucks and cans of gasoline are not designed to do damage to people. Machine guns were invented for the express purpose of being able to kill lots of folks more easily.

What matters is what its used for, not what it was invented for.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Supposedly no crimes have ever been committed in the USA with machine-guns or full automatics that were legally owned. There has been some crime committed with M-16s that were imported illegally from Mexico, which goes to show you that the illegal gun importation between Mexico and the USA is not always from USA to Mexico, it goes the other way too.

the ban-pushed by a spiteful douche bag who was mad NJ's ability to harass traveling gun owners-was not based on any justifiable reason

its a valuable lesson that gun hating politicians only pretend crime control is their motivation. We know better and for those who don't, the ban should convince them

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

But how is anything a right if the government fully controls it and can take it away from you on a whim... Wouldn't that rather be the definition of a privilege?

You believe that everything is a privilege granted to you by the government, and that nothing is truly a right that is owned by the individual.

You miss the first part about the origin of a right. Rights come into being when the people want a particular behavior as a right so they exert pressure of one kind or another on the government to accept their will to have a specific behavior as a right. Your use of the term FULL CONTROL is false. And they cannot practically "take it away on a whim" without suffering the consequences of the wrath of the people for doing so.

Individuals own no rights of their own - unless they own their own independent island and are the government.

 

[gfm7175]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

What difference does it make? If driving is a privlidge can it revoke the drivers licenses of every person with a last name starting with the letter A? Of course not

All the difference in the world... It determines whether we are a free people or whether we are slaves to our government...

And why not?

 

[Rucker61]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I do not waste my time on philosophy.

Are you strictly led by pragmatic empiricism, then?

I gave you my opinion. Slavery treats people as objects or things and they are not objects or things.

But in the real world, they were and are. That's a provable fact in the real world reality. Why do you deny this?

False. I cannot prove that something that does not exist does in fact not exist. But if you claim something does exist - in this case natural rights - it is incumbent upon you to prove it.

Can you?

No to anyone incapable of abstract thought, no. But you can't disprove them, either. And again, whether they exist or not, to a 3rd party independent observer, it is impossible to determine whether the actions of a represssive government are due to the victims have no rights or the government repressing existing rights.

 

[haymarket]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Are you strictly led by pragmatic empiricism, then?



But in the real world, they were and are. That's a provable fact in the real world reality. Why do you deny this?

All I did was give you the opinion you requested.

No to anyone incapable of abstract thought, no. But you can't disprove them, either. And again, whether they exist or not, to a 3rd party independent observer, it is impossible to determine whether the actions of a represssive government are due to the victims have no rights or the government repressing existing rights

So is that your way of saying you cannot prove that natural rights exist outside of a willful belief?

 

[DebateChallenge]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

I ask again, who, name these imaginary people who make such a stupid claim that there is a low crime rate because of gun restrictions?

Tons of people in the gun control crowd.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: If gun control worked Mexico would be crime free

Why couldn't they revoke the licenses of everyone whose last name begins with an A? They have the power to, for sure. They've told you when you could buy gas based purely on some numbers on your license plate.

That was done with compelling interest. The same would be required to revoke a drivers license for people with a last name starting with A.