libertarian_knight
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2005
- Messages
- 997
- Reaction score
- 0
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Diogenes said:As I recall, Darwin came to that conclusion by observing variations among species on different isolated islands in the Pacific, and it certainly seems reasonable. It seems less likely in a population living more or less together on the same continent. The definition that I learned in high school was that different species are defined by the fact that they are mutually sterile, or (as with a horse and donkey) their offspring are sterile. The idea that a herd of buffalo in North America or a population of monkeys in Africa could simultaneously mutate in two different directions is possible I suppose, but it would seem to have a vanishingly small probability even over thousands of generations.
Your post makes very reasonable points, and I appreciate your not falling into the pattern of name calling and insult that characterizes so many posts on this subject. It certainly seems like it could happen as you describe, but are there any instances where we know that it has happened?libertarian_knight said:So, the nut breakers tend, though not exclusively, to breed with other nut breakers, and bug hunters with other bug hunters. now, assuming both these groups of monkies, even in the same tribe, now both sucessful in the TECHNIQUE ALONE, prosper, they may move along the ground, or upwards in the trees, for better food, safety, shelter, whatever.
Yes, people can speculate all theywant. They can also decide that gravity is NOT a function of mass and proximity, but rather a result of invisible angles showing things around. yes, people can speculatecrackpot ideas all they want, but in science it is not belief that matters but rather the data, the evidence. So people can "believe" in ID all they want, that doesn't make it science.The Mark said:All of what you say is true, as far as I can tell.
The problem is that people who believe in ID or something like it DO NOT believe some of the facts. Or rather, come up with other ways that you could arrive at said facts.
The Scientist COULD say something like that, but it would be a sloppy claim without substantiation and provided evidence when you are talking scientific evidence.For example, let us say some scientist says something along the lines of "This fossil used to be such-and-such a creature that died 1 billion years ago, give or take 50 thousand or so."
Ah, yes. The "Deceptive God" postulation, that God deliberately seek to mislead us. Sorry, I don't believe in a lying God. Fundies obviously do, though.Now, a person who wanted to believe in creationism would say something along the lines of "GOD could have made it look like it was really old, but it actually is only 4000 years or so." Or something more complicated that has the same effect.
And what does that have to do with the Scientific Theory of Evolution? The two don't exclude each other outside of the fundie's overheated and lying mind.Now, I must admit that I was raised believing in a higher power, and until I went to college I was home schooled, which allowed my parents to teach me what they believed.
Well, religion in general is not taught in School, though certainly a comparative religion class could be a good idea. But certainly, it should NOT be taught in Science Class which already is short-changed in time on the schedule.Scarecrow Akhbar said:If the errors of religion aren't taught in school, when will they be taught?
As is the Case with Evolution.Diogenes said:I think you are confusing "plausible" with "intuitively obvious" when you bring in quantum mechanics. I agree there is nothing intuitively obvious about relativity or quantum mechanics, but the predictive accuracy makes it plausible.
Ah, so you want us to provide you with pages and pages of data for your amusement because you were to lazy to learn this yourself in school?Evolution, on the other hand, has been supported on this thread by the intuitively obvious method of connecting the dots of the geological record, but there have been no examples presented of evolution accounting for the differentiation of species.
And then, of course, you are ignoring one of the main necessities for speciation which is some form of geographic, climate, or temporal separation into different environments. Without that separagtion, the entire population will continue to mix the changed genes and all end up more or less the same. Why are you ignoring that major part of the speciation issue, an issue that only is of minor importance in the Scientific Theory of Evolution anyway?Diogenes said:As I recall, Darwin came to that conclusion by observing variations among species on different isolated islands in the Pacific, and it certainly seems reasonable. It seems less likely in a population living more or less together on the same continent. The definition that I learned in high school was that different species are defined by the fact that they are mutually sterile, or (as with a horse and donkey) their offspring are sterile. The idea that a herd of buffalo in North America or a population of monkeys in Africa could simultaneously mutate in two different directions is possible I suppose, but it would seem to have a vanishingly small probability even over thousands of generations.
Actually, the "nylon bug" is one such example:Diogenes said:My question has to do with how any species which is not physically separated can possibly mutate into two or more different species. The implicit assumption here is that if they can breed together they will breed together (are there any pureblood human races left anywhere?), in order to keep the gene pool viable.
Untrue, as they are the same species, whereas the finches are not.Diogenes said:Thanks. That link emphasizes my point:In this case, it would seem that the different "species" are actually closer than, say, Australian aborigines and Eskimos.
It isn't anything you wouldn't learn in advanced college biology. It also has some flaws and over simplifications in its explanation, but it does make it clear that when people talk about "only a theory" when talking about Scientific Theories, they are either (a) very ignorant, or (2) outright lying.The Mark said:I didn't read all of this yet, but you said I should look it up, so........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Method
Also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
Both links are interesting reading and contain alot of information that I am sure you and others will find usefull.
steen said:Well, religion in general is not taught in School, though certainly a comparative religion class could be a good idea. But certainly, it should NOT be taught in Science Class which already is short-changed in time on the schedule.
Diogenes said:Your post makes very reasonable points, and I appreciate your not falling into the pattern of name calling and insult that characterizes so many posts on this subject. It certainly seems like it could happen as you describe, but are there any instances where we know that it has happened?
Why are you sure the finches are different species? They seem to be able to bear fertile offspring, which doesn't really sound like different species. What's your definition of species?steen said:Untrue, as they are the same species, whereas the finches are not.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?