I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:366]

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Lursa said:

Do you acknowledge that even with abortion available, 87,000 women/yr in the US die or incur permanent or severe health consequences, like aneurysm, kidney failure, stroke, etc.) and that the govt would NOT be protecting women's right to life, etc if they used force to expose women to those significant risks that the govt cannot protect them from?

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That's nothing compared to well over a million innocent children whose murders you defend every year. Your crocodile tears over the women for whom you fraudulently claim to be concerned is meaningless against the horrific slaughter of innocents that you defend on their behalf.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Lursa said:

In order to prevent abortion, the govt would have to infringe on woman's right to life, liberty (The positive enjoyment of social, political, or economic rights and privileges), pursuit of happiness, due process, privacy, etc. Is that correct? Do you acknowledge that?

Do you acknowledge that even with abortion available, 87,000 women/yr in the US die or incur permanent or severe health consequences, like aneurysm, kidney failure, stroke, etc.) and that the govt would NOT be protecting women's right to life, etc if they used force to expose women to those significant risks that the govt cannot protect them from?

If you 'know' all that (acknowledge it), then it's plain that you do not care if and how the govt uses force on women to prevent abortion.

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Bob Blaylock said:

That's nothing compared to well over a million innocent children whose murders you defend every year. Your crocodile tears over the women for whom you fraudulently claim to be concerned is meaningless against the horrific slaughter of innocents that you defend on their behalf.

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So, thank you. You acknowlege that women are less than the unborn and that their lives and futures dont matter...those exact same things matter more for the unborn. Thank you. God does not devalue women's lives this way so you certainly should not.


Couldnt resist doing this anyway tho, eh? As meaningless as such false blather is?:

Lursa said:

(And please read it fully and carefully so that you understand it before you answer. Some glib cliche about 'innocent children being murdered' is inaccurate and not even relevant since the unborn are not 'innocent,' not 'children', and not 'murdered.')

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Tell me Bob, why do you value an 'innocence' that is the same as that of a rock or a snail or a tree? Meaning, not a virtue but an emptiness, a vacuum....something you imagine 'in' that vacuum. None of those things can act or form intent...and neither can the unborn. And as well as we (the rest of us) all know the legal definition of murder. Again...you just look uneducated when you write such silly things.

If you cant win an argument, support your position, with anything more than emotional rhetoric, then it's not a very strong argument, is it? Nothing of substance behind it.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

Please refrain from telling stupid and obvious lies.

I have been critical of your words and behavior, such as your bigoted statements and lies. There is a difference between that and the direct namecalling you have falsely accused me of.

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It is a pity you cannot stand up for when you insult people because as one can see what I stated was neither stupid nor obvious lies, it was reality and in all reality you insult me and loads of other pro-choicers here on a very regular basis. Sure some insult you too but don't falsely claim that you are not someone who name calls because that is beside the truth/untrue.

My claims were not a false accusation. Sorry but they were not.

You wrote:

Wow, spoken like a true hatemonger

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"ZEF" is an ignorant slur only employed by bigots

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Try typing in English and not in Bigoted Stupidity.

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Let me know when you're ready to speak English instead of bigoted stupidity.

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You may not claim you are insulting people by calling them hatemongers but that is exactly what you do. I use the word ZEF so as you state that is only used by bigots or in your words, I am a bigot.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Lursa said:

So, thank you. You acknowlege [sic] that women are less than the unborn and that their lives and futures dont [sic] matter...those exact same things matter more for the unborn. Thank you.

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I didn't acknowledge anything of the sort. All human lives matter.

But more than a million dead is a greater tragedy than 87,000 injured, including some smaller number than that dead. Even from a cold, amoral, utilitarian point of view, it is unjustifiable to slaughter more than a million innocents in order to prevent less than a tenth of that number from being harmed.

Lursa said:

God does not devalue women's lives this way so you certainly should not.

Couldnt [sic] resist doing this anyway tho, eh? As meaningless as such false blather is?:

Tell me Bob, why do you value an 'innocence' that is the same as that of a rock or a snail or a tree? Meaning, not a virtue but an emptiness, a vacuum....something you imagine 'in' that vacuum. None of those things can act or form intent...and neither can the unborn. And as well as we (the rest of us) all know the legal definition of murder. Again...you just look uneducated when you write such silly things.

If you cant win an argument, support your position, with anything more than emotional rhetoric, then it's not a very strong argument, is it? Nothing of substance behind it.

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There is nothing new or unique about your point of view that would deny the humanity of a large number of human beings, in order to excuse committing horrific atrocities against them. There is certainly nothing particularly original or clever about the specific excuses and arguments that you make along this line. Ultimately, you are no different, and no better, than any of those who have followed this same path before. You invoked God, and though I would rarely dare presume to speak for him, I am confident in saying that he will not be on your side in this matter. One day, you will stand before him, and he will judge you no differently than he will judge every Klansman, Nazi, slave trader, or every other person who has committed or defended horrific abuses against those whose humanity they denied.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

Please refrain from telling stupid and obvious lies.

I have been critical of your words and behavior, such as your bigoted statements and lies. There is a difference between that and the direct namecalling you have falsely accused me of.

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Oh the HYPOCRISY, priceless...

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Un biased said:

You can't tell someone evidence you have to show it . You just can't claim something and your evidence is your own word as I can easily make a rebuttal in that same format. I do not have and agenda and you saying that I having one makes me curious as to what it is . Once again a fetus is not a baby. If you have actual evidence to the contrary such as data and statistics it would help your case. I don't think of you as easily swayed as you form your own opinion and you deny and fabricate your own evidence to comply to your ideals. Im swayed by logic and fact ( fact as in provable ) not hyperbole. Females should not be disenfranchised because for the sake of un feeling not sentient and brain dead form because you believe it is a baby . I understand your position and you think you are doing the right thing which I hold nothing against you for , but just becuase you don't like something or even if you truly believe it doesn't make it true or should have laws made to comply with said ideals

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I told you about the physical evidence which you foolishly disregard. So don't come here and pretend that I have not provided any.

But you have provided good material but unfortunately my evidence can only be proven wrong if it was actually wrong.

A fetus is a baby. From start to finish. Beginning to end. It will always be a baby and that's the truth and and that means that even you can change nature and the power over life. Say it all you want. I'll just keep telling the truth.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

RamFel said:

So don't come here and pretend that I have not provided any.

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It is not a pretense, but fact. You have provided no evidence but ignorant opinion and lies while disregarding real evidence and facts.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

RamFel said:

I told you about the physical evidence which you foolishly disregard. So don't come here and pretend that I have not provided any.

But you have provided good material but unfortunately my evidence can only be proven wrong if it was actually wrong.

A fetus is a baby. From start to finish. Beginning to end. It will always be a baby and that's the truth and and that means that even you can change nature and the power over life. Say it all you want. I'll just keep telling the truth.

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Physical evidence yet where is it in any sense ?

You have continuously said a fetus is a baby and still have shown nothing to prove this point. You only make unfounded assertions which is in no way evidence please try again.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Bob Blaylock said:

One day, you will stand before him, and he will judge you no differently than he will judge every Klansman, Nazi, slave trader, or every other person who has committed or defended horrific abuses against those whose humanity they denied.

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So Sayeth the Bob... :roll:

Pssssssssst...Bob. You're some piece of work telling Lursa what God is gonna do to her. You don't have the slightest clue about God's actual behaviors have been in past, are currently, or will be in the future other than what people have written about several thousands of years ago. People as in human beings. Can't you at least be honest and fess up that you DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW?

If there is such an event, you might wanna put your crash helmet on and buckle up cuz it's very possible that you are gonna have a bumpy ride. I'm predicting all of the people who claim to know all about god's behaviors and will - will be the first to take a fast ride south.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Bob Blaylock said:

That's nothing compared to well over a million innocent children whose murders you defend every year. Your crocodile tears over the women for whom you fraudulently claim to be concerned is meaningless against the horrific slaughter of innocents that you defend on their behalf.

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What would the world be like if every adult refused to house or raise any child? Would that be a more "horrific slaughter" of innocent children?

Have you ever saved a child's life? Raised a child? Provided a home for a child?

But YOU certainly may just keep trying to moralize at us about how greatly you care about "innocent children" anyway and claiming that we don't.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

RamFel said:

I told you about the physical evidence which you foolishly disregard. So don't come here and pretend that I have not provided any.

But you have provided good material but unfortunately my evidence can only be proven wrong if it was actually wrong.

A fetus is a baby. From start to finish. Beginning to end. It will always be a baby and that's the truth and and that means that even you can change nature and the power over life. Say it all you want. I'll just keep telling the truth.

Click to expand...

Yeah and an acorn is an oak tree. Been thru this word game you think proves something, when it proves nothing.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

Peter King said:

It is a pity you cannot stand up for when you insult people

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There is a place on this forum for doing that. That is where I do that.

You claiming I have called you "a bigot," called you (and not your words) "stupid," called you "a hatemonger," or "a liar" etc. is itself a lie, and yes, that lie is stupid, obvious, and readily disprovable.

I made the mistake of calling someone who tells habitual lies on this forum "a liar" once. Since then, I have only pointed out when the statements of said poster are lies.

You do routinely employ bigoted slurs and you spread hateful falsehoods about the human beings you would see dead - you deny their humanity and you claim that killing them is not even a killing act - this is objectively and indisputably true, and it is no insult, just a factual statement citing your behavior. My opinion is that such behavior is repugnant, of course, but that should go without saying.

Sure some insult you too but don't falsely claim that you are not someone who name calls because that is beside the truth/untrue.

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I won't claim I have never. As noted I called the person who tells habitual lies "a liar" once. By the rules of this site, such truth is no defense when it comes to namecalling.

However, one can criticize words and behaviors, and I most assuredly do.

My claims were not a false accusation. Sorry but they were not.

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Yes, your claims of insults were objectively false - you lied.

You wrote:

"Wow, spoken like a true hatemonger"
"ZEF" is an ignorant slur only employed by bigots
Try typing in English and not in Bigoted Stupidity.
Let me know when you're ready to speak English instead of bigoted stupidity.

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And I stand by every single one of those statements and reject your false claim that any of them were personal insults.

The statement in question WAS spoken "as though one were a true hatemonger." I did not say "you, poster, you are a hatemonger." If the intent was not to sound as if one was a hatemonger, then that person could have revisited or revised their words to not sound so hateful.

"ZEF" IS an ignorant slur only employed by bigots. That is a general (and accurate) claim, not a specific statement lobbied at any one person. Perhaps you've heard the idiom "if the shoe fits?" In any event, if I make a post condemning thievery and someone admits they have stolen, that person cannot then claim that my general invective against thieves was directed at them, nor does my foreknowledge that there may be or are thieves on the board indicate that any invective against thievery is a personal attack.

Lastly, my criticisms of nonsensical statements that do not parse as comprehensible English are perfectly valid and could not rationally be considered personal attacks. One's statements and arguments are not beyond reproach on a debate forum.

Right, then.

As requested previously, please refrain from telling such lies in the future.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Bob Blaylock said:

One day, you will stand before him, and he will judge you no differently than he will judge every Klansman, Nazi, slave trader, or every other person who has committed or defended horrific abuses against those whose humanity they denied.

Click to expand...

This message is only due to the nature of your's I quote:

One day you will stand before your God who will say your had a wonderful home, vehicles, electronics, money, food, clothes, good health, freedom, you had more than 99% of people. how blessed you were. And you knew there were millions of abandoned, disabled, crippled, desperate little children who do not have those things. Why did you not take even ONE suffering little ones into your home as your own child to raise, love and to care for?

What is your answer, given your condemnations of others about children and you raising the topic of judgment day - personalizing that at a specific female member?

Or, in other words, who the HELL are you to be condemning ANYONE about children? Explain your superiority about children and PARENTING in your ACTIONS - not cheap worthless hateful words you dump on a forum.

Your posting specifically AT Lursa that she is identical to a "Klansman, Nazi and slave trader" is absolutely outrageous.

If you have ANYTHING to show that Lursa ever harmed ANYONE or ever denied anyone any rights, post it!

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

There is a place on this forum for doing that. That is where I do that.

You claiming I have called you "a bigot," called you (and not your words) "stupid," called you "a hatemonger," or "a liar" etc. is itself a lie, and yes, that lie is stupid, obvious, and readily disprovable.

I made the mistake of calling someone who tells habitual lies on this forum "a liar" once. Since then, I have only pointed out when the statements of said poster are lies.

You do routinely employ bigoted slurs and you spread hateful falsehoods about the human beings you would see dead - you deny their humanity and you claim that killing them is not even a killing act - this is objectively and indisputably true, and it is no insult, just a factual statement citing your behavior. My opinion is that such behavior is repugnant, of course, but that should go without saying.



I won't claim I have never. As noted I called the person who tells habitual lies "a liar" once. Truth is no defense when it comes to namecalling. However, I can criticize words and behaviors, and I most assuredly do.



Yes, your claims of insults were objectively false - you lied.



And I stand by every single one of those statements and reject your false claim that any of them were personal insults.

The statement in question WAS spoken "as though one were a true hatemonger." I did not say "you, poster, you are a hatemonger." If the intent was not to sound as if one was a hatemonger, then that person could have revisited or revised their words to not sound so hateful.

"ZEF" IS an ignorant slur only employed by bigots. That is a general (and accurate) claim, not a specific statement lobbied at any one person. Perhaps you've heard the idiom "if the shoe fits?" In any event, if I make a post condemning thievery and someone admits they have stolen, that person cannot then claim that my general invective against thieves was directed at them, nor does my foreknowledge that there may be or are thieves on the board indicate that any invective against thievery is a personal attack.

Lastly, my criticisms of nonsensical statements that do not parse as comprehensible English are perfectly valid and could not rationally be considered personal attacks.

Right, then.

As requested previously, please refrain from telling such lies in the future.

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ZEF stands for the medical and biological terms of zygote, embryo, fetus. However, JayDubya has the Catholic Church to tell him what are the required words to use - and his scientific research material is "The Urban Dictionary." :lol:

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

joko104 said:

ZEF stands for the medical and biological terms of zygote, embryo, fetus.

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"ZEF" is a dimunitive slur for referring to the human beings that a pro-abort wishes to see dead.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

"ZEF" is a dimunitive slur for referring to the human beings that a pro-abort wishes to see dead.

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Your message goes off the deep end, though that's not rare.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

There is a place on this forum for doing that. That is where I do that.

You claiming I have called you "a bigot," called you (and not your words) "stupid," called you "a hatemonger," or "a liar" etc. is itself a lie, and yes, that lie is stupid, obvious, and readily disprovable.

I made the mistake of calling someone who tells habitual lies on this forum "a liar" once. Since then, I have only pointed out when the statements of said poster are lies.

You do routinely employ bigoted slurs and you spread hateful falsehoods about the human beings you would see dead - you deny their humanity and you claim that killing them is not even a killing act - this is objectively and indisputably true, and it is no insult, just a factual statement citing your behavior. My opinion is that such behavior is repugnant, of course, but that should go without saying.

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Well, that is all in your extremist mind because I have never used a bigoted slur, or spread falsehoods. And I deny the humanity of a ZEF because they are not human beings when they are legally being aborted.

And yes, you insult people here left right and center but unlike some most of us do not complain. You have never made a factual statement citing my behavior (or maybe you did once or twice, by accident) because you consistently make things false claims about my behavior. Sorry, but I cannot help it that you cannot discuss things in a civil manner.

JayDubya said:

I won't claim I have never. As noted I called the person who tells habitual lies "a liar" once. By the rules of this site, such truth is no defense when it comes to namecalling.

However, one can criticize words and behaviors, and I most assuredly do.

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Sorry, but that is a load of nonsense. You even complained about that once in a post of mine in which you complained I called your opinion idiotic and thus you an idiot. Well sorry, but you do that all of the time to loads of people here. So again, when you call my opinion "spoken like a true hatemonger" you are stating that I am a hatemonger. So what you claim is nonsense.

JayDubya said:

Yes, your claims of insults were objectively false - you lied.

And I stand by every single one of those statements and reject your false claim that any of them were personal insults.

The statement in question WAS spoken "as though one were a true hatemonger." I did not say "you, poster, you are a hatemonger." If the intent was not to sound as if one was a hatemonger, then that person could have revisited or revised their words to not sound so hateful.

"ZEF" IS an ignorant slur only employed by bigots. That is a general (and accurate) claim, not a specific statement lobbied at any one person. Perhaps you've heard the idiom "if the shoe fits?" In any event, if I make a post condemning thievery and someone admits they have stolen, that person cannot then claim that my general invective against thieves was directed at them, nor does my foreknowledge that there may be or are thieves on the board indicate that any invective against thievery is a personal attack.

Lastly, my criticisms of nonsensical statements that do not parse as comprehensible English are perfectly valid and could not rationally be considered personal attacks. One's statements and arguments are not beyond reproach on a debate forum.

Right, then.

As requested previously, please refrain from telling such lies in the future.

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Well, as I have said before I am not going to waste my precious time responding to insulting, ridiculous and nonsensical posts where you just post the same old stuff you post here on and on again with the same claims of everybody is evil, wrong, insulting, hatemongering, etc. etc. but me. And that is just passive aggressive behavior that as said I am not going to entertain anymore. If you have something real to say except insulting others for their opinion (you know, by calling them idiots, hatemongers, etc.) then I would love to discuss things further but until then I will respond in this manner because I may not want to waste my time but I will not be insulted or be called a hatemonger for being pro-choice.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

Peter King said:

Well, that is all in your extremist mind because I have never used a bigoted slur

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You lie. You do it all the time. You do it in this very post.

I deny the humanity of a ZEF because they are not human beings when they are legally being aborted.

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What a disgusting and hateful statement, completely at odds with scientific fact and reality.

but I will not be insulted or be called a hatemonger for being pro-choice.

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I suppose you don't have to engage in hatemongering behavior to be an abortion supporter, but it certainly seems to be a trend in your circles.

I mean, one could just support abortion without denying reality. You could, I don't know, try to construct a logical and rational argument for why killing a human being in aggression can be justified.

Instead, you try to paint those you want to see dead as subhuman and claim that killing them isn't even really killing.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

You lie. You do it all the time. You do it in this very post.

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Again, you are wrong and I am not going to follow you in this passive aggressive posting method. I do not lie or use bigoted slurs. You are wrong, it is that simple because ZEF is neither bigoted nor a slur.

JayDubya said:

What a disgusting and hateful statement.

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You mean reality sucks? Well, just because you have a different opinion does not make my statement disgusting (because it isn't) nor does it make it a hateful statement. Just because you over-value the rights and properties of ZEF's is not my problem. You can disagree with it, that is free for everybody to do, but if you claim that it is disgusting or hateful then you are just plain wrong.

JayDubya said:

You don't have to engage in hatemongering behavior to be an abortion supporter, but it certainly seems to be a trend in your circles.

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more untruths, sorry, not going to waste my time with your untrue claims.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

Peter King said:

You mean reality sucks?

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That would seem to be your position.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Bob Blaylock said:

That's nothing compared to well over a million innocent children whose murders you defend every year. Your crocodile tears over the women for whom you fraudulently claim to be concerned is meaningless against the horrific slaughter of innocents that you defend on their behalf.

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So you think that quantity is better than quality of life? Ugh, how dehumanizing, reducing the unborn to mere numbers that mean nothing except that they outumber the pain and suffering of women in our society that, in your depressing and repressive vision, would have to sustain.

Your unfounded and hysterical emotional outpouring is meaningless. Again, it is the proof of a weak personal argument, nothing more. As a matter of fact, it devalues all the loving women that choose to have their babies, AND the babies they bear.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Bob Blaylock said:

I didn't acknowledge anything of the sort. All human lives matter.

But more than a million dead is a greater tragedy than 87,000 injured, including some smaller number than that dead. Even from a cold, amoral, utilitarian point of view, it is unjustifiable to slaughter more than a million innocents in order to prevent less than a tenth of that number from being harmed.




There is nothing new or unique about your point of view that would deny the humanity of a large number of human beings, in order to excuse committing horrific atrocities against them. There is certainly nothing particularly original or clever about the specific excuses and arguments that you make along this line. Ultimately, you are no different, and no better, than any of those who have followed this same path before. You invoked God, and though I would rarely dare presume to speak for him, I am confident in saying that he will not be on your side in this matter. One day, you will stand before him, and he will judge you no differently than he will judge every Klansman, Nazi, slave trader, or every other person who has committed or defended horrific abuses against those whose humanity they denied.

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Lursa said:

So you think that quantity is better than quality of life? Ugh, how dehumanizing, reducing the unborn to mere numbers that mean nothing except that they outumber the pain and suffering of women in our society that, in your depressing and repressive vision, would have to sustain.

Your unfounded and hysterical emotional outpouring is meaningless. Again, it is the proof of a weak personal argument, nothing more. As a matter of fact, it devalues all the loving women that choose to have their babies, AND the babies they bear.

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You are the one that will stand in front of God and be in for quite a shock. The only thing that may save you is that you probably have no ability to act, only use ineffective but sacrilegious words against women.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

joko104 said:

This message is only due to the nature of your's I quote:

One day you will stand before your God who will say your had a wonderful home, vehicles, electronics, money, food, clothes, good health, freedom, you had more than 99% of people. how blessed you were. And you knew there were millions of abandoned, disabled, crippled, desperate little children who do not have those things. Why did you not take even ONE suffering little ones into your home as your own child to raise, love and to care for?

What is your answer, given your condemnations of others about children and you raising the topic of judgment day - personalizing that at a specific female member?

Or, in other words, who the HELL are you to be condemning ANYONE about children? Explain your superiority about children and PARENTING in your ACTIONS - not cheap worthless hateful words you dump on a forum.

Your posting specifically AT Lursa that she is identical to a "Klansman, Nazi and slave trader" is absolutely outrageous.

If you have ANYTHING to show that Lursa ever harmed ANYONE or ever denied anyone any rights, post it!

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LOL

He is so full of emotional appeals and empty of credibility that it doesnt even register with me...why would his opinion of me mean anything at all? It's clear his respect of women is nil.

But thanks.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my [W:3

JayDubya said:

That would seem to be your position.

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No, reality is fine right now (at least when talking about the right of women to have an abortion if they choose to have one) but it could be better and it could be worse (but that would mean you and your extreme activist buddies would get more to say and that is not going to happen IMHO).

It could be better if men and women using birth control measures more seriously.

It could be better if men would accept that condoms are only a minor issue and are not there to "wreck their enjoyment" of intercourse.

It could be better if fewer abortions would take place and more morning after pills where used to prevent abortions.

It could be better if real sex education was taught at schools and less teen pregnancies would happen.

It could be better if pro-lifers would accept that abortion is a private and personal decision which does not concern them one iota.

Re: I wasn’t sure that I wanted to be attached to this person for the rest of my life

Un biased said:

Physical evidence yet where is it in any sense ?

You have continuously said a fetus is a baby and still have shown nothing to prove this point. You only make unfounded assertions which is in no way evidence please try again.

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Oh yes, I can debate without providing proof (which I have done anyway). With logic, common sense, ethics and morality. And if you come up with proof, and the four other items, then I am your boy. I cannot imagine someone having proof that a woman being pregnant, where the ZEF is not human. Can you?

IF the grisly remains of a body is found, and no one knows who it is, or even what species it is, the next thing is to cal1 the police and have them look at what was found, and if it is human, then the victim was a human being.

All cells of all humans (sans bacteria and other things) whether it is a single cell or a full

grown adult, will tell you if the individual is human and that includes fetuses. So when you tell me that a fetus is not a baby, who am I to believe? You?

If you look at an ultrasound of a baby, and you can examine it and get a sample, will it tell you anything different about what animal it might be?

The fact is that abortion is murder of another human being, or at least a bad case of man's inhumanity to man, which is not unheard of in our species.

Now, why don't you join the human race as one of the good guys?