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I thought our taxes were not going up?!?!?!?

Would you consider a "war tax" to pay as you go for the wars or do you think the tax cuts will pay for it?


Clinton jacked up taxes when there was no war. The war on poverty is what costs us the most money

My biggest issue is a system where 47% of the people suffer nothing if taxes are raised and thus politicians gain improper power by pandering to those people. Given that half of those born today are born to parents on the dole, us net tax payers are going to be soaked continually so dem politicians can gain the wealth and power that people like the Gores and Kennedys got from politics
 
What beliefs you hold does not change mathematics. What you are saying is not actually that the tax cuts do not need to be paid for, you're just saying (I think) that we should pay for them by cutting spending. If it really is possible to cut spending dramatically without undermining our place as a major economic power (I'm looking at you military), we should do that, but the first priority with those savings has to be eliminating the deficit then paying off the debt. Putting your hand out for tax breaks at a time when we have a massive deficit and a huge debt is just not reasonable. Talk to me once we've got the debt paid off and a surplus sitting in the bank and then we can discuss how to divide up the tax cuts.

The problem is that the dems have spent 75 years creating a government dependents. Ideally we should get judges who enforce the tenth amendment even though that would cause major withdrawal pains as unconstitutional welfare programs and idiotic infringements such as the war on drugs (how much money do we spend incarcerating people for drug and drug related violations) are ended.

Easy question-do the rich have an unlimited duty to pay more and more taxes as long as the government decides to spend more and more money?
 
Maybe we should have a constitutional amendment that requires our defense spending NOT be paid for by debt or deficit, but can't come from taxes that have been chosen to pay for other things, such as property taxes for public education. That seems fiscally responsible to me, so conservatives should be all for it.

I prefer a system where people who think like me agree to pay for constitutionally proper government functions and those who are fans of FDR, LBJ etc pay for all the crap that I believe is unconstitutional
 
I heard an economist say once.. there is only one pop to the market after a tax cut.. after that the effects of a tax cut on the economy as a whole are negligible.

yeah economists are always right

and most of them are dependent on tax dollars for their funding. tax cuts have a great benefit to those of us who are actually net tax payers-and I mean by that those who pay more than they use which is around 117K a year right now in income
 
Clinton jacked up taxes when there was no war. The war on poverty is what costs us the most money

My biggest issue is a system where 47% of the people suffer nothing if taxes are raised and thus politicians gain improper power by pandering to those people. Given that half of those born today are born to parents on the dole, us net tax payers are going to be soaked continually so dem politicians can gain the wealth and power that people like the Gores and Kennedys got from politics

It's not dems. That's just propaganda you hear on the right. On average, Democrats have been far better in terms of deficits than Republicans. We current spend the majority of your income taxes on the military. That's the elephant in the room. If you want to get us to a point where we could responsibly consider cutting taxes, you need to cut the military. Dramatically. The actual welfare program, plus food stamps, plus free school lunches, plus WIC, just total up to 1% of our federal budget. The military is 54%...
 
This is the sort of thinking or feeling that characterizes the tax hiking government expanding left. I don't have to prove tax cuts are neutral because I don't operate under the belief that peoples' wealth is there to be used for the greater good (however that is defined)

How is asking you to prove something that no respectable economist, including those who pushed tax cuts equate to such logic?

You have to prove tax cuts are neutral because you argued it and you are being challenged.

You have two options here: Prove or drop the argument. The "I don't have to prove anything" tactic you are trying effectively shows you have no bloody idea what you are talking about. While that may be obvious to others, it does not appear obvious to you.

Your position is that as long as a majority of voters (be they tax payers or parasites) want more and more spending, those who pay taxes have a duty to be soaked more and more.

Wrong. My position is you need to prove your argument. You are currently failing to do so and pathetically attempting to label me in a sad attempt to weasel your way out of actually proving what you say.

If you could actually back up your statement, despite contrary evidence by economists who pushed tax cuts, you would. But as evident by your total failure to provide anything other then pedestrian labeling attacks, you cannot.

Tax cuts don't have to be paid for because they are not spending.

Apparently you do not understand what "tax expenditure" means. In that way, tax rebates, credits and loopholes are not spending and don't have to be paid for. Furthermore, your argument means all deductions don't have to be paid for. If we have a budget of $500 which does not change on a balance budget, but then issue a tax cut which puts us $50 in the red, does that equate to never having to paid for when it is funded by debt? You are explicitly arguing that debt financing expenditures never have to be paid for. That's insane.

What you are really saying is that if we cut taxes we have to find a way to fund the outrageous bloated government someway else. Half of what the government spends is not constitutionally proper to start with.

Be that as it may, it does not support your notion that tax cuts don't need to be paid for. No changes to base spending and tax cuts funded by debt do not support your position.

No economist worth their degree supports your idea that tax cuts never have to be paid for.

IF my taxes are cut-and I am still a net tax payer-who is forced to pay for my cuts--the people who don't pay taxes in the first place? LOL. Now tell me-is the government actually paying for all its spending now?

Yes, via the Chinese. That should be obvious. It's how Bush funded his round of tax cuts. And why I consider them little more then loans.

Of course not so your ranting that tax cuts have to be paid for is crocodile tears at best.

One must wonder if you can add.

No changes to spending + a tax cut = tax cuts revenue neutral? That's crazy talk.

If I save money I don't have to pay for that. I realize many of you operate under the assumption that wealth first belongs to the government and what is left over those who earn it can keep.

The only way you people can justify confiscatory taxes (and yes, when some have to pay half of their income in taxes-state local and federal that is confiscatory) is that it clearly is for everyone's good (BTW the general welfare is not promoted by taking from some for the benefit of other groups). I have several grounds for opposing a progressive tax and "proving tax cuts are neutral" is not necessary to my position.

It's amusing how you are completely incapable of actually talking about the subject and automatically revert to vague attacks upon people who do not share the beliefs you are attacking.
 
Overall, this is a nonissue for me as those tax cuts never should have happened in the first place.
 
Why not?

How much does this effect you and your 4 kids?

The way I see it, the government running the possibility of having too much debt and being forced to scale back holds a bigger possible problem for me and my three kids as things like education or infrastructure spending can be affected vs having a small tax cut.

I am much more interested in the necessary spending that makes society good (again, like education, roads, etc) than I am in saving a few dollars a month.
 
The way I see it, the government running the possibility of having too much debt and being forced to scale back holds a bigger possible problem for me and my three kids as things like education or infrastructure spending can be affected vs having a small tax cut.

I am much more interested in the necessary spending that makes society good (again, like education, roads, etc) than I am in saving a few dollars a month.



So you don't think spending is too high at the moment?


I for one think one can't kill the beast while still suckling its teat. It needs to be cut, not more of my money going to washington to be wasted on things like tattoo removal for crack ho's (SF)....
 
Would you consider a "war tax" to pay as you go for the wars or do you think the tax cuts will pay for it?

Everything we don't agree with no requires a tax --- talk about working for the government, I guess that would make us all indentured servents, is that your good idea? You don't like the wars - war tax. I don't like health care - health care tax, and on and on... if you don't like the wars, stop voting for people who support them - it's called a democratic system. :roll:
 
Everything we don't agree with no requires a tax --- talk about working for the government, I guess that would make us all indentured servents, is that your good idea? You don't like the wars - war tax. I don't like health care - health care tax, and on and on... if you don't like the wars, stop voting for people who support them - it's called a democratic system. :roll:

I have yet to see that many anti-war candidates. I am lucky, though, in my state of VA I voted for congressman Bobby Scott who is against the wars. Senator Webb is another one who I voted for because he has a son in the combat zone and he really doesn't like the wars, either.
 
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So you don't think spending is too high at the moment?

Philosophically, no. Practically, yes. I think spending is unsustainable given the current state of the economy. But there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

I for one think one can't kill the beast while still suckling its teat. It needs to be cut, not more of my money going to washington to be wasted on things like tattoo removal for crack ho's (SF)....

I have no desire to kill the beast as you say. However, I do support 0 based budgetting to try to squeeze as much out of our dollar as possible.
 
Philosophically, no. Practically, yes. I think spending is unsustainable given the current state of the economy. But there is nothing inherently wrong with it.



I have no desire to kill the beast as you say. However, I do support 0 based budgetting to try to squeeze as much out of our dollar as possible.





well. I guess we disagree.... How odd. :ssst:



I for one think I know how to take care of myself and my money better than the government. Given its recent and historical failures. it's easy to see this to be the case. I would support a 17% flat tax, AND a balanced budget amendment to the constitution... This spending is killing us and squeezing the dimes out of the citizenry can't sustain itself.
 
I have yet to see that many anti-war candidates. I am lucky, though, in my state of VA I voted for congressman Bobby Scott who is against the wars. Senator Webb is another one who I voted for because he has a son in the combat zone and he really doesn't like the wars, either.

Our system allows for those with similar views to press their viewpoint and if it's taken into account and provides a majority view - it will become reality. It's incumbant on you - if you feel very strongly about the wars - to push your views and find others who share it, to take it to government or, run for government yourself to change the policy.

I got news for ya - no one likes wars - soldiers don't like wars. You think they want to be shot at, blown up or maimed?
 
It's not dems. That's just propaganda you hear on the right. On average, Democrats have been far better in terms of deficits than Republicans. We current spend the majority of your income taxes on the military. That's the elephant in the room. If you want to get us to a point where we could responsibly consider cutting taxes, you need to cut the military. Dramatically. The actual welfare program, plus food stamps, plus free school lunches, plus WIC, just total up to 1% of our federal budget. The military is 54%...

Funny...if you go to a UC Berkely website you get a pie chart that indicates about 35% of the US budget goes to the Pentagon. If you go to the fed website it indicates 14% goes to defense spending. And since providing for the national defense is an actual constitutional requirement, that seems about right...tho i am the first person to say the defense budget could be significantly cut along with all other govt spending.

Federal State Local Public Spending United States 2010 - Charts Tables History

It also might surprise people to know that pensions account for more of the US federal spending than does defense...and like California and Illinois...that is a looming nightmare
 
Our system allows for those with similar views to press their viewpoint and if it's taken into account and provides a majority view - it will become reality. It's incumbant on you - if you feel very strongly about the wars - to push your views and find others who share it, to take it to government or, run for government yourself to change the policy.

I got news for ya - no one likes wars - soldiers don't like wars. You think they want to be shot at, blown up or maimed?

One out of five returning vets suffer from trauma from the war. Many are physically injured for life. No, I don't think they like war. We need to bring back the draft, a fair one this time. Then, the war will stop. Been there, done that.
 
Funny...if you go to a UC Berkely website you get a pie chart that indicates about 35% of the US budget goes to the Pentagon. If you go to the fed website it indicates 14% goes to defense spending. And since providing for the national defense is an actual constitutional requirement, that seems about right...tho i am the first person to say the defense budget could be significantly cut along with all other govt spending.

Federal State Local Public Spending United States 2010 - Charts Tables History

It also might surprise people to know that pensions account for more of the US federal spending than does defense...and like California and Illinois...that is a looming nightmare

That chart appears to be talking about all federal, state, and local government spending of any kind, I was only talking about the federal budget. But, even for the federal budget, I should clarify. I'm talking about money spent out of the general federal budget, not spending funded from the social security trust, since that is funded separately. We're talking about federal income taxes, so we should only look at the stuff funded my federal income taxes. Also, you need to look at all military spending, not just what goes to the pentagon. That means veteran's benefits, CIA, NSA, etc.

Add all that up and you get 54% of the general federal budget. 54% of federal income taxes you pay go to the military.
 
That chart appears to be talking about all federal, state, and local government spending of any kind, I was only talking about the federal budget. But, even for the federal budget, I should clarify. I'm talking about money spent out of the general federal budget, not spending funded from the social security trust, since that is funded separately. We're talking about federal income taxes, so we should only look at the stuff funded my federal income taxes. Also, you need to look at all military spending, not just what goes to the pentagon. That means veteran's benefits, CIA, NSA, etc.

Add all that up and you get 54% of the general federal budget. 54% of federal income taxes you pay go to the military.

Ah, the roman empire, part II.
 
One out of five returning vets suffer from trauma from the war. Many are physically injured for life. No, I don't think they like war.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here as it applies to taxes.

We need to bring back the draft, a fair one this time. Then, the war will stop. Been there, done that.
Only a national service plan will work - drafts will never pass. Even the thought of a national service plan is too counterintuitive to how our country was initially structured - specifically resisting a standing army and only supplying local militia's in a "voluntary" process. Once it no longer is voluntary - as a country we've crossed into being just like every other country and lose part of our identify. I realize that may be a position some not only advocate but are vocally and fiscally willing to change. Traditionalists like myself find it appalling while also admitting our existing military cater to specific social strata's of our country. How do we put rich kids in the mix without forcing them? We don't. We go back to constitutionally declaring wars - but also amending the constitution to now account for terrorists and terrorism which holds no country's borders.
 
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here as it applies to taxes.

I mean we will be paying taxes for the injured veterans long after this war is ever ended. They will be paying taxes for it too.
 
That chart appears to be talking about all federal, state, and local government spending of any kind, I was only talking about the federal budget. But, even for the federal budget, I should clarify. I'm talking about money spent out of the general federal budget, not spending funded from the social security trust, since that is funded separately. We're talking about federal income taxes, so we should only look at the stuff funded my federal income taxes. Also, you need to look at all military spending, not just what goes to the pentagon. That means veteran's benefits, CIA, NSA, etc.

Add all that up and you get 54% of the general federal budget. 54% of federal income taxes you pay go to the military.

Id love to see your source on that. Not that Im a real source kinda guy...I can follow rhetoric and anecdote just fine.

Defense spending is less that education spending as a component of the nations GDP. You can cherry pick stats all day long. Yes we spend a lot on defense. But yes...we absolutely spend a lot (and more) on education, healthcare, etc...

We can agree that ALL federal spending is just plain and simply out of control. I suspect we can even agree that there needs to be some cuts in defense spending. I highly doubt we could find agreement on all spending cuts, because I personally believe the fed dept of education, transportation,etc should be eliminated...the arts programs eliminated, and social spending should be provided by the states.
 
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Id love to see your source on that. Not that Im a real source kinda guy...I can follow rhetoric and anecdote just fine.

Hey, lookn at that, they just updated it to 2011. This year they're saying 48%.

http://www.warresisters.org/files/FY2011piechart.pdf

We can agree that ALL federal spending is just plain and simply out of control. I suspect we can even agree that there needs to be some cuts in defense spending. I highly doubt we could find agreement on all spending cuts, because I personally believe the fed dept of education, transportation,etc should be eliminated...the arts programs eliminated, and social spending should be provided by the states.

Well, then you aren't really talking about cutting taxes though so much as shifting the taxes you pay away from federal taxes into state taxes. So that doesn't really help that much. But, I don't really mind doing it that way either, so no real objection from me.
 
well. I guess we disagree.... How odd. :ssst:

I for one think I know how to take care of myself and my money better than the government. Given its recent and historical failures. it's easy to see this to be the case. I would support a 17% flat tax, AND a balanced budget amendment to the constitution... This spending is killing us and squeezing the dimes out of the citizenry can't sustain itself.

I agree with the balanced budget amendment, except in cases of war or other major emergency.
 
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