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I struggle so hard with this issue

mikhail

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Abortion is unusually for me something i just cant get a consistant conviction on.

On the one side i find it hard to justify killing a unborn child.Its not about the arguement of is it painless or even how developed the baby is (to a certain point obvously).Its emotional espacally for people not born out of extreme poverty or war. Everyone one of us has won a lottery with far greater odds than 6 numbers.A different sperm and it would have been someone else born as well as all the other variables.We are the lucky ones and even the dullest or hardest of live in nearly all cases of moments of joy excietment friendship etc. So is it ok to deny someone of this ?

on the other hand i dont consider young girls who have had abortions as evil im sure there is many reasons behind having an abortion.

In rape cases its understandable that a women cant bear to have it i cant quite imagine the raw emotion of that.

Also modern technology raises new moral questions in the uk they have currently been covering the story of a baby unable to do anything but move its eyebrows and its mouth slightly though its brain is undamaged.Im sure someones mentioned this already but as it can only breath through a ventilator and doctors have recommended it should be turned off.

Anyway basically i go round in circles on this one.
 

jimmyjack

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My signature defines the entire argument.
 

talloulou

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jimmyjack said:
My signature defines the entire argument.
Person is a legal term. You can argue a fetus should be considered a person legally as I would but until the law says it's so it's not so.
 

jimmyjack

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talloulou said:
Person is a legal term. You can argue a fetus should be considered a person legally as I would but until the law says it's so it's not so.
And where does it say in the law that a foetus is not a person?
 

talloulou

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jimmyjack said:
And where does it say in the law that a foetus is not a person?
I don't think it does but it also doesn't say they are persons at least not federal law. There are states that allow the unborn to be victims of crime as well as persons who can receive inheritancce. But I'm not sure the federal law ever said they are persons or not. Roe vs Wade did say the unborn are not entitled to equal protection under the law.
 

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talloulou said:
I don't think it does but it also doesn't say they are persons at least not federal law. There are states that allow the unborn to be victims of crime as well as persons who can receive inheritancce. But I'm not sure the federal law ever said they are persons or not. Roe vs Wade did say the unborn are not entitled to equal protection under the law.
So what is the point of this statement:

talloulou said:
Person is a legal term. You can argue a fetus should be considered a person legally as I would but until the law says it's so it's not so.
 

ngdawg

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mikhail said:
Abortion is unusually for me something i just cant get a consistant conviction on.

On the one side i find it hard to justify killing a unborn child.Its not about the arguement of is it painless or even how developed the baby is (to a certain point obvously).Its emotional espacally for people not born out of extreme poverty or war. Everyone one of us has won a lottery with far greater odds than 6 numbers.A different sperm and it would have been someone else born as well as all the other variables.We are the lucky ones and even the dullest or hardest of live in nearly all cases of moments of joy excietment friendship etc. So is it ok to deny someone of this ?

on the other hand i dont consider young girls who have had abortions as evil im sure there is many reasons behind having an abortion.

In rape cases its understandable that a women cant bear to have it i cant quite imagine the raw emotion of that.

Also modern technology raises new moral questions in the uk they have currently been covering the story of a baby unable to do anything but move its eyebrows and its mouth slightly though its brain is undamaged.Im sure someones mentioned this already but as it can only breath through a ventilator and doctors have recommended it should be turned off.

Anyway basically i go round in circles on this one.
Personal decisions are just that-personal. But being sympathetic to the woman's predictament makes it a bit clearer.
I heard about that story here. Seems the parents do not want the child disconnected. But if she can only live with the help of machines, is she living? I know of adults who have requested their machines be turned off, they set up their goodbyes and were unhooked-they did not want to be in that agony. I hope I never have to make that choice.
Obviously, the parents of that child would not have chosen abortion, and that's fine. But to deny even having the choice, specially before a point of viability, that is not doing anyone any favors, forces someone to do something either against their will or take illegal, dangerous and drastic measures and causes even more misery in the long run.
Life is a chance...and it's a series of choices, some not optimum. But at least the choices are there. The trick is getting through it all with a minimum of scarring misery.
 

talloulou

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ngdawg said:
But at least the choices are there.
The one ripped from the womb got no choice! I think its kind of important not to forget that fact.
 

ngdawg

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talloulou said:
The one ripped from the womb got no choice! I think its kind of important not to forget that fact.
Do everyone a favor and stop following me.....there's stalker laws, ya know:roll:
They don't get a choice as they can't MAKE one, they're not THINKING yet............good lord, you're annoying most times....probably drove your mother crazy.
 

Axismaster

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Now I'm against abortion because I think it is a form of taking away somebody's right to life. Most libertarians disagree with me on abortion, but we agree that natural consequences should be free to play out. You have sex, you get pregnant, you better carry it.
 

Naughty Nurse

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Axismaster said:
Now I'm against abortion because I think it is a form of taking away somebody's right to life. Most libertarians disagree with me on abortion, but we agree that natural consequences should be free to play out. You have sex, you get pregnant, you better carry it.
You get cancer - better just die?

We rarely allow natural consequences to play out, do we? That's not a convincing argument, IMHO.
 

jallman

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Axismaster said:
Now I'm against abortion because I think it is a form of taking away somebody's right to life. Most libertarians disagree with me on abortion, but we agree that natural consequences should be free to play out. You have sex, you get pregnant, you better carry it.
Consent to sex is not consent to parenthood. The two are mutually exclusive in a legal sense.
 

jimmyjack

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Naughty Nurse said:
You get cancer - better just die?

We rarely allow natural consequences to play out, do we? That's not a convincing argument, IMHO.
Pregnancy is not cancer.

Cancer primarily ends life.

Pregnancy primarily brings life.

Cancer primarily occurs spontaneously

Pregnancy primarily occurs deliberately

Pregnancy and cancer are practically complete opposites; to compare them as you did to justify abortion is lame.
 
F

FallingPianos

jimmyjack said:
Cancer primarily occurs spontaneously

Pregnancy primarily occurs deliberately
pregnancy and cancer both happen to people who are living normal lives. having sex is a normal part of life, its not something people do only when they are trying to conceive. pregnancies happen by mistake all the time, both in and out of marriage.
 

steen

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Axismaster said:
Now I'm against abortion because I think it is a form of taking away somebody's right to life.
What "right to life" is that? We have already had treads here where pro-lifers admitted that there is no such thing.

Most libertarians disagree with me on abortion, but we agree that natural consequences should be free to play out. You have sex, you get pregnant, you better carry it.
Ah, like with most other healthcare. You smoke, you get cancer, you better be able to carry it. You eat burgers and milkshakes, you get a herat attack, you better be able to carry it. You.... ? !!?! :confused: ....:shock:

:doh oh, how silly, in those cases, people get medical help to avoid the natural consequenses of their own personal actions.

But here you are advocating against this for women. Is that hypocricy per ignorance or misogyny, the desire to oppress and control women?
 

jimmyjack

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star2589 said:
pregnancy and cancer both happen to people who are living normal lives. having sex is a normal part of life, its not something people do only when they are trying to conceive. pregnancies happen by mistake all the time, both in and out of marriage.
Why have you quoted this?

Cancer primarily occurs spontaneously

Pregnancy primarily occurs deliberately


What I have said here is true; attempting to counter it is futile.
 

jallman

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jimmyjack said:
Why have you quoted this?

Cancer primarily occurs spontaneously

Pregnancy primarily occurs deliberately


What I have said here is true; attempting to counter it is futile.
No its not. Cancer can occur by deliberate action or inaction taken where your health choices are concerned. True, the smoker doesnt request cancer but he doesnt particularly prevent it when he lights up.

On the flipside, the couple doesnt particularly want to be pregnant but it happens as a consequence of what most people see as a normal and healthy activity for a couple...or even for a single person.

Both occurences have medical procedures to remedy the situation.
 
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FallingPianos

jimmyjack said:
Pregnancy primarily occurs deliberately

What I have said here is true; attempting to counter it is futile.
Unintended Pregnancy in the United States
Excluding miscarriages, 49% of the pregnancies concluding in 1994 were unintended; 54% of these ended in abortion. Forty-eight percent of women aged 15-44 in 1994 had had at least one unplanned pregnancy sometime in their lives; 28% had had one or more unplanned births, 30% had had one or more abortions and 11% had had both.
well, if 51% justifies the use of the word "primarily" then so be it. I find it to be misleading without the actual percentage stated.
 

jimmyjack

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jallman said:
No its not. Cancer can occur by deliberate action or inaction taken where your health choices are concerned.
Cancer primarily occurs spontaneously.

jallman said:
True, the smoker doesnt request cancer but he doesnt particularly prevent it when he lights up.
So if a smoker is partly to blame if he gets cancer, so too is a woman who becomes pregnant when she consents to sex.

jallman said:
On the flipside, the couple doesnt particularly want to be pregnant but it happens as a consequence of what most people see as a normal and healthy activity for a couple...or even for a single person.

Both occurences have medical procedures to remedy the situation.
Why do you speak of pregnancy as if it is an illness?
 
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FallingPianos

jimmyjack said:
Why do you speak of pregnancy as if it is an illness?
pregnancy isnt an illness, but it is unwanted 49% of the time, and similar to cancer, there are medical procedures that end it.
 

jimmyjack

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star2589 said:
pregnancy isnt an illness
Nice of you to notice.

star2589 said:
but it is unwanted 49% of the time
Then don’t have sex.

star2589 said:
and similar to cancer, there are medical procedures that end it.
Similar??? Cancer is life destroying, pregnancy is life creating.

The two conditions are poles apart.
 
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FallingPianos

jimmyjack said:
Then don’t have sex.
or alternatively:

1) use birth control
2) get an abortion quickly if that fails
3) put the kid up for adoption
4) be willing to raise the kid should an accidental pregnancy occur
 

jallman

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jimmyjack said:
Cancer primarily occurs spontaneously.
You are making that assertion so back it up. All indications point to cancer being preventable and its occurrence a result of life choices.

So if a smoker is partly to blame if he gets cancer, so too is a woman who becomes pregnant when she consents to sex.
But just like the smoker isnt giving active consent to cancer, neither is the woman who becomes pregnant as a result of sex that was protected. In fact, if she is having sex responsibly and not planning to get pregnant, birth control and condom use is a direct withdrawal of consent to parenthood. Unless sex has become a crime since the inception of this debate, there is no reason to suggest there should be a penalty or coercion resultant from the act.


Why do you speak of pregnancy as if it is an illness?
Why do you feel the need to misrepresent what I stated? Pregnancy is a medical condition. There is a medical remedy if that condition is unwanted. There is no reference to pregnancy as an illness in anything I said. Try again.
 

jimmyjack

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star2589 said:
or alternatively:

1) use birth control
2) get an abortion quickly if that fails
3) put the kid up for adoption
4) be willing to raise the kid should an accidental pregnancy occur
1) Birth control fails.
2) An abortion however fast is still an abortion.
3) Adoption is good.
4) Willingness is good too.
 
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