• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

I saw the darkness of antisemitism, but I never thought it would get this dark

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Racism is not a specific illness but a general sickness. Display one symptom and you display them all. If you show me an anti-Muslim bigot, I will be able to guess his or her views on the European Union, welfare state, crime and “political correctness”. Show me a leftwing or Islamist antisemite and, once again, he will carry a suitcase full of prejudices, which have nothing to do with Jews, but somehow have everything to do with Jews.

The Labour party does not have a “problem with antisemitism” it can isolate and treat, like a patient asking a doctor for a course of antibiotics. The party and much of the wider liberal-left have a chronic condition.

The reason for this turns out to be pretty simple: Muslims coming into the UK. Money coming from the Saudis. British politicians who want to be elected from predominantly Muslim districts. Having a reasonable attitude toward Jews and Israel will get you accused of being a Zionist among such people. A two state solution is not acceptable, only wiping Israel off of the face of the earth will do. And the morals of progressives are infinitely malleable. Drag a wad of cash though Parliament and it's astonishing what you can get them to say and do.

Allow me to state the moral argument as baldly as I can. Not just in Paris, but in Marseille, Copenhagen and Brussels, fascistic reactionaries are murdering Jews – once again. Go to any British synagogue or Jewish school and you will see police officers and volunteers guarding them. I do not want to tempt fate, but if British Jews were murdered, the leader of the Labour party would not be welcome at their memorial. The mourners would point to the exit and ask him to leave.
 

Mithrae

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,504
Location
Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Strange to see an Anti-SJW Warrior championing a theory which looks remarkably akin to intersectionality.
 

Paleocon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
13,309
Reaction score
1,307
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The reason for this turns out to be pretty simple: Muslims coming into the UK. Money coming from the Saudis. British politicians who want to be elected from predominantly Muslim districts. Having a reasonable attitude toward Jews and Israel will get you accused of being a Zionist among such people. A two state solution is not acceptable, only wiping Israel off of the face of the earth will do. And the morals of progressives are infinitely malleable. Drag a wad of cash though Parliament and it's astonishing what you can get them to say and do.

If they don't like it here, they can leave.

Jews and other subversive minorities should not be pandered to.
 

Mithrae

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,504
Location
Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
If they don't like it here, they can leave.

Jews and other subversive minorities should not be pandered to.

I must admit I find it a little disturbing that a proud anti-Semite 'likes' so many of my responses to LowDown :lol:

To clarify, I'm not even sure that LowDown is so naive - or so bigoted - that he really equates Jewish people with the state of Israel and its policies. His obsession with race and allegations of racism most likely is purely a would-be political bludgeon, as is clearly demonstrated by
- this thread's emphases on 'leftwing' and 'progressive' targets,
- his earlier thread's insistence that 'open anti-semitism' is rampant especially on 'left leaning' college campuses,
- the stark contradiction between that and his claim, in an OP less than 24 hours prior, that on college campuses fake hate crimes are 'just about' the only type to occur,
- and the open presumption in that thread that his subjects, the black students perpetrating a fake hate crime, must represent a left wing perspective.
[Edit: And those are just from the few recent threads I've ever bothered to read of his!]

His opposition to anti-Semitism would be admirable, if that's what it really was, rather than thinly veiled partisan propaganda which actually uses bigotry to attack more targets.
 
Last edited:

Paleocon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
13,309
Reaction score
1,307
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I must admit I find it a little disturbing that a proud anti-Semite 'likes' so many of my responses to LowDown :lol:

To clarify, I'm not even sure that LowDown is so naive - or so bigoted - that he really equates Jewish people with the state of Israel and its policies. His obsession with race and allegations of racism most likely is purely a would-be political bludgeon, as is clearly demonstrated by
- this thread's emphases on 'leftwing' and 'progressive' targets,
- his earlier thread's insistence that 'open anti-semitism' is rampant especially on 'left leaning' college campuses,
- the stark contradiction between that and his claim, in an OP less than 24 hours prior, that on college campuses fake hate crimes are 'just about' the only type to occur,
- and the open presumption in that thread that his subjects, the black students perpetrating a fake hate crime, must represent a left wing perspective.

His opposition to anti-Semitism would be admirable, if that's what it really was, rather than thinly veiled partisan propaganda which actually uses bigotry to attack more targets.

There's really no reason to accuse him of dishonesty.

Lowdown is a right-liberal, which basically means that he approves of liberalism, but not its real world results. In order to avoid the cognitive dissonance, it's necessary for right-liberals to imagine that left-liberals are maliciously trying to subvert real liberalism, and that's why it's been a failure. Admitting that leftism is simply the results of boba dose liberals implementing their ideas, would result in the realization that liberalism itself is insane.

So his automatic association of everything he disapproves of with the left is simply his honest worldview.

Also, as a real (and thus imperfect) liberal, he holds a number of unprincipled exceptions to liberalism (as do leftists, though they generally hold less). This requires another mental block to prevent cognitive dissonance. I doubt it's even occurred to him that his whining about the plight of the Jews is similar to SJW whining about other minorities.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,638
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
If they don't like it here, they can leave.

Jews and other subversive minorities should not be pandered to.

Don't forget the neo-bigot liberals.
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
30,953
Reaction score
9,018
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Those who are without bigotry and prejudice, cast the first stone. ;)
 

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I must admit I find it a little disturbing that a proud anti-Semite 'likes' so many of my responses to LowDown :lol:

Yes, that should give you pause. But no.

To clarify, I'm not even sure that LowDown is so naive - or so bigoted - that he really equates Jewish people with the state of Israel and its policies.

No, I don't. But anti-Semites do, and so-called anti-Zionists have conflated anti-Zionism with hatred of the Jewish people themselves. What is Israel if not Jews? What is the conservative Bibi government if not Jews? What is the sin of the Bibi government? To be vigorous in the defense of the Jewish people. That is what Bibi's detractors hate, detractors who would deny Jews the right to self defense, who cast every act of self defense by Jews into aggression against Palestinians. You don't have to talk to these people long before their hatred of Jews becomes obvious. Just ask them what they think of Jews, and ask them if the Jews have the right to defend themselves.
 

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
There's really no reason to accuse him of dishonesty.

Lowdown is a right-liberal, which basically means that he approves of liberalism, but not its real world results. In order to avoid the cognitive dissonance, it's necessary for right-liberals to imagine that left-liberals are maliciously trying to subvert real liberalism, and that's why it's been a failure. Admitting that leftism is simply the results of boba dose liberals implementing their ideas, would result in the realization that liberalism itself is insane.

So his automatic association of everything he disapproves of with the left is simply his honest worldview.

Also, as a real (and thus imperfect) liberal, he holds a number of unprincipled exceptions to liberalism (as do leftists, though they generally hold less). This requires another mental block to prevent cognitive dissonance. I doubt it's even occurred to him that his whining about the plight of the Jews is similar to SJW whining about other minorities.

Psycologicizing one's opponents is an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. One would do better just to come to terms with the fact that reasonable people don't always agree.
 

Paleocon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
13,309
Reaction score
1,307
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Psycologicizing one's opponents is an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. One would do better just to come to terms with the fact that reasonable people don't always agree.

I'm not psychoanalyzing you. I'm discussing right-liberalism as an ideology, and how it justifies itself. I couldn't care less what personally motivates you.
 

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I'm not psychoanalyzing you. I'm discussing right-liberalism as an ideology, and how it justifies itself. I couldn't care less what personally motivates you.

Well, it's a half baked argument no matter how you cut it. What you mean by "right-liberal" is anyone's guess. I'm anti-big government, anti-big tax, pro small spending, anti-excessive regulation. That includes a limitation of government power over our lives, including the power to put us to death and dictate what we do with our bodies. I'm for confinement of government to essential services such as national defense, law enforcement (including essential laws regulating businesses, markets), essential infrastructure construction and maintenance. This includes the idea that laws ought to be the minimum necessary, and the vast majority of laws currently on the books could abolished. A government ought to be too small to create a financial crisis through bad regulation and too small to save failing corporations. Rouge agencies such as the EPA, which is no longer responsive to Congress, should be abolished, their employees fired and forbidden from ever having government jobs again, their office buildings torn down, and the land they were built on salted.
 

Riveroaks

Banned
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
10,230
Reaction score
2,081
Location
Peoples' Republic Of CALIF
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Those who are without bigotry and prejudice, cast the first stone. ;)

That reminds me of a joke I heard in Catholic high school ...

A black man was working on a fence by a cliff when he accidentally tripped and fell over the side and tumbled down the cliff until he caught a branch half way down and was left dangling helplessly there.

So he prayed, "God please help me, please save me, I don't wanna die!"

Just about that time an angel came flying up and stopped midair next to him.

The black man saw the angel and cried out "Thank you God, thank you Jesus, praise the Lord, thank you for sending an angel!"

The angel then said, "Do you have faith, brother?"

The black man replied, "Oh yes I have faith, I promise, yes, I do!"

Then the angel said, "Ok if you have faith, then let go!"

"What?!" replied the black man, "Let go ??"

"Yes," replied the angel, "let go."

"OK," answered the black man and he just let go, at which moment he tumbled down the rest of the way and was killed.

Then as the angel was flying away he said to himself, "I don't know how I ever became an angel, as much as I hate N.......".
 

Mason66

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
26,670
Reaction score
6,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If they don't like it here, they can leave.

Jews and other subversive minorities should not be pandered to.

Do you hate Jews because you are religious or because they have hurt you in some way?
 

Paleocon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
13,309
Reaction score
1,307
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Well, it's a half baked argument no matter how you cut it.

For reference, the only thing I was arguing in the post in question was that Mithrae's accusation of dishonesty against you was unfounded.

What you mean by "right-liberal" is anyone's guess.

I explained it in the post you quoted earlier. You are a liberal (you believe that promoting freedom is the purpose of government), but you dislike the actual effects of that ideology being implemented in the real world.

Do you hate Jews because you are religious or because they have hurt you in some way?

I do not hate anyone. I disapprove of Jews because they killed Jesus Christ, and continue to stubbornly reject him to this day.
 

Riveroaks

Banned
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
10,230
Reaction score
2,081
Location
Peoples' Republic Of CALIF
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Do you hate Jews because you are religious or because they have hurt you in some way?

Most people who hate Jews do so because of one of the following reasons:

1 - Jews are different (Neonazi's, KKK)

2 - They are jealous of Jews (most common reason in Europe)

3 - Jews have taken their land (Palestinians)

4 - Jews have offended their Moslem brothers (Arabs and Persians)

5 - Jews have taken their jobs or career (Adolf H.)
 

Mason66

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
26,670
Reaction score
6,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
For reference, the only thing I was arguing in the post in question was that Mithrae's accusation of dishonesty against you was unfounded.



I explained it in the post you quoted earlier. You are a liberal (you believe that promoting freedom is the purpose of government), but you dislike the actual effects of that ideology being implemented in the real world.



I do not hate anyone. I disapprove of Jews because they killed Jesus Christ, and continue to stubbornly reject him to this day.

You worship a Jew but you disapprove of them. That doesn't make any sense.

Also I didn't know the Romans were Jewish.
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
30,953
Reaction score
9,018
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
That reminds me of a joke I heard in Catholic high school ...

A black man was working on a fence by a cliff when he accidentally tripped and fell over the side and tumbled down the cliff until he caught a branch half way down and was left dangling helplessly there.

So he prayed, "God please help me, please save me, I don't wanna die!"

Just about that time an angel came flying up and stopped midair next to him.

The black man saw the angel and cried out "Thank you God, thank you Jesus, praise the Lord, thank you for sending an angel!"

The angel then said, "Do you have faith, brother?"

The black man replied, "Oh yes I have faith, I promise, yes, I do!"

Then the angel said, "Ok if you have faith, then let go!"

"What?!" replied the black man, "Let go ??"

"Yes," replied the angel, "let go."

"OK," answered the black man and he just let go, at which moment he tumbled down the rest of the way and was killed.

Then as the angel was flying away he said to himself, "I don't know how I ever became an angel, as much as I hate N.......".

Satan was once an angel. 8)
 

X Factor

Anti-Socialist
Dungeon Master
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
59,257
Reaction score
29,841
Location
El Paso Strong
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
Psycologicizing one's opponents is an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. One would do better just to come to terms with the fact that reasonable people don't always agree.

"Reasonable" it pretty much the antithesis of the person you're addressing.
 

Mithrae

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,504
Location
Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
To clarify, I'm not even sure that LowDown is so naive - or so bigoted - that he really equates Jewish people with the state of Israel and its policies.
No, I don't.

Yes, you do:

Mithrae said:
Perhaps you should have spent more than 5 seconds: Both of those are about anti-Israeli protests/groups. There are some people in such groups who are hateful of the Jewish ethnicity, no doubt. So good, you've found one or two examples. But you're a far cry from the hyperbolic claims made in your opening post. There's nothing to suggest that they are anything but a minority. In fact your first source specifically notes that one such group is "filled with young Jews." A less blinkered person might note that associating certain governmental/political policies - such as those of Israel - with an entire ethnic group is itself the very epitome of racial stereotyping and prejudice. Jews are people, with their own personalities, histories, opinions, hopes and dreams: They are not automatons inextricably bound and interchangeable with a particular state.
There are none so blind as those who don't want to see. Anti-Zionism is always anti-Semitism. Discuss these issues with these people for a few minutes and the hatred of Jews as Jews will become plain.

As I've said, I suspect it's more a case of your blind hyper-partisanship and compulsive propaganda that's really in play here, rather than actual racial prejudice. But that is hardly a redeeming quality.

What is Israel if not Jews?

It's a country with a government, a military, legislation, economic and foreign policies and so on... a concept which you seem to have difficulty comprehending.

By definition, 100% of US citizens are Americans - and over 90% of Americans live in America. Yet only truly stupid people would declare that criticisms - even harsh criticism - of the US government's actions under the Obama administration, or under the Bush administration, or even under a whole string of administrations equates with dislike or hatred of the American people.

By contrast, not all Israeli citizens are Jews; over 20% are Arabs for example, and indeed some 17 seats in the Knesset are held by Arab Israelis. Even more tellingly, the majority of Jews worldwide do not reside in Israel. The inescapable conclusion here is that anyone who equates Israel with Jews or criticism of Israeli policies with anti-Semitism must really struggle even to walk and think at the same time.
 

Mr Person

A Little Bitter
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
47,464
Reaction score
31,143
Location
Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The reason for this turns out to be pretty simple: Muslims coming into the UK. Money coming from the Saudis. British politicians who want to be elected from predominantly Muslim districts. Having a reasonable attitude toward Jews and Israel will get you accused of being a Zionist among such people. A two state solution is not acceptable, only wiping Israel off of the face of the earth will do. And the morals of progressives are infinitely malleable. Drag a wad of cash though Parliament and it's astonishing what you can get them to say and do.


You see "anti-semitism" and the entirety of your analysis is "because muslims"?




Btw:


Semetic:

1. relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.

2. relating to the peoples who speak the Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.
 

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Yes, you do:

No, I don't. That anti-Semites conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism doesn't mean I do.

As I've said, I suspect it's more a case of your blind hyper-partisanship and compulsive propaganda that's really in play here, rather than actual racial prejudice. But that is hardly a redeeming quality.

You are not the gold standard of anything, much less what is propaganda and who is prejudiced.

It's a country with a government, a military, legislation, economic and foreign policies and so on... a concept which you seem to have difficulty comprehending.

It was founded as a Jewish state for the Jews, a concept that was ratified by the United Nations.

By definition, 100% of US citizens are Americans - and over 90% of Americans live in America. Yet only truly stupid people would declare that criticisms - even harsh criticism - of the US government's actions under the Obama administration, or under the Bush administration, or even under a whole string of administrations equates with dislike or hatred of the American people.

And yet the two usually do go hand in hand, especially when the criticisms are leveled by foreigners.
 

Sherman123

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
7,774
Reaction score
3,791
Location
Northeast US
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If they don't like it here, they can leave.

Jews and other subversive minorities should not be pandered to.

It's only natural that as the Chosen People we would elicit such scorn from an idolator.
 

Mithrae

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,504
Location
Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
What is Israel if not Jews?
It's a country with a government, a military, legislation, economic and foreign policies and so on... a concept which you seem to have difficulty comprehending.
It was founded as a Jewish state for the Jews, a concept that was ratified by the United Nations.

But not exclusively for Jews, and most Jews do not live there. To equate the two is either ignorant or dishonest, or both.

By definition, 100% of US citizens are Americans - and over 90% of Americans live in America. Yet only truly stupid people would declare that criticisms - even harsh criticism - of the US government's actions under the Obama administration, or under the Bush administration, or even under a whole string of administrations equates with dislike or hatred of the American people.
And yet the two usually do go hand in hand, especially when the criticisms are leveled by foreigners.

At best, this is a claim for which you have not a single shred of evidence; with its sole 'redeeming' feature being that you've chosen the weasel word usually, to mean as much or as little as you want it to.

But in fact your claim is directly and unambiguously contradicted by the fact that virtually all Americans themselves criticize one administration or another: In fact libertarians, such as yourself, are well-known for pushing amongst the broadest and harshest-rhetoric attacks on the scale and activities of US governments generally, for much if not all of the past 100 years! Unless you are coming out of the closet with your dislike or hatred of the American people here, this has got to be one of the most abject failures of thought and introspection I have ever seen :lol:

Your ongoing claim that "Anti-Zionism is always anti-Semitism" doesn't even have any weasel words to fall back on; it is an absolute declaration, again completely devoid of evidence, revealing nothing except (yes, you've managed to convince me of it) your own bigotry. Many Jews themselves, as I have already pointed out several times, are critical of Israeli policies, or the manner in which Zionism has been manifest, or even the concept of a racially-oriented or -defined country at all! But apparently you find yourself utterly incapable of recognising that Jews have their own thoughts, feelings and socio-political perspectives the same as everyone else.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom