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I like Muslims

Daffy the Wise

26 X World Champs said:
THANK YOU for your simple and wise post! Daffy Duck is simply a racist who twists words to fit his demented purpose.

It does not seem to me to be a stretch to say that there are good and bad people in all corners of the world, and to condemn a group in total is the epitome of stupidity, and Daffy is the poster child example of this ignorance...

By this rationale we can cease to condemn Nazism. There are good Nazis; such as Oscar Schindler - who saved 1,000 Jews. Therefore because of exceptions such as him we can ignore the teachings of Nazism, and those who acted upon those teachings.

And I can say that all without name-calling too. Try it out.
 
And I can say that all without name-calling too. Try it out.
Try to ignore the Champs off color comments. He tends to get his shorts in a wad quite often when he is on the losing end of a debate. Happens a lot, don't it Champ. :catapult: heehaw!
 
Montalban. This by an expert too ...

"The fact that Muhammad too more than a dozen wives has at times occasioned critical comment in the West. But a number of facts should be realised in connection with this. Muhammad at first took only one wife, Khadija, and he was very happy with her and took no other wife until she died after 25 years of marriage. Muhammad himself was fifty years of age by this time. It should not be imagined that Muhammad's later marriages were out of sexual desire. They were contracted mostly for political or humanitarian reasons. These later wives were either widows of followers of his who had been killed in battle and had been left without a protector, or they belonged to imortant families or clans whom it was necessary to honour in order to stengthen alliances. Many were of advanced years and only one had not been married previously - A'isha, the daughter of his close companion, Abu Bakr, whom the prophet wished to honour. Indeed, that his later marriages were not due to a voluptuous nature is indicated by the fact that although his first wife, Khadija, bore a total of eight children, only one more child was born to Muhammad after Khadija's death" M.Momen

I wont/cant do battle with you on hadiths. It was a while back when I was 'seeking' and I was drawn to the Shia's as the purest form of Islam despite it being the minority view. I know that is familiar to you in your Orthodox/Catholic role.

Apologies over the fighting men issue - 4am rather than dishonesty. And I cant supply a rational reason for the slaughter of all males over the age of puberty.

I think the essential difference here is that you already have found your faith, and therefore have much invested in discrediting any others that may threaten you and that is in a nutshell what this post is about.
 
Tolerence?

Sorry, I forgot to address the beginning of your post in which you said...
nkgupta80 said:
Montalban:
Like wim00 said, Islam transformed these peoples' once pitiful rivalling "states" into a bustling cohesive empire. And if what you and your say about Muhammad's evil intolerant ways is what the Koran's really about, then why were these great Islam-based empires considered to be the most tolerant and progressive of the time? Cities like Baghdad, Damascus, and Cordoba were common places where you could find Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together peacefully. Muslim scholars, for hundreds of years, preserved and learned from the pagan literature of the Greeks and Romans.
"The religious oppression of the state in the period under the Umayyads and Abbasids - regarded as the "Golden Age" - began under Abd al-Malik"
Ye'or, B (1996), "The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude", p84

Islam burst out of the Arabian peninsula right at the time when the two 'super-powers' of the region; the Roman Empire and the Persian Empire had just exhausted themselves after a 30 year war. The Persian Empire succumbed straight away, and the Roman Empire lost the Holy Land, Syria, and Egypt to Christians and Jews who actually welcomed the invaders - because of several reasons
a) they had been placed under a huge tax burden in order to pay for that war
b) their own areas had been the battleground for that war
c) there was a sizeable Christian group who had little love for "Orthodox" Christianity since their break from it in the 400s.

The Muslims found themselves in control of areas long since civilised. They were a minority rule over a majority and had no recourse but to 'tolerate' the majority; they created a 'special' legal status to the peoples they had conquered; calling them 'dhimmi'. This meant that the 'shimmy's had to pay a special tax, wear special clothing, and be subject to different rules of law; such as the fact that no Muslim could be condemned on the testimony of a non-Muslim - because the 'oath' of a non-Muslim was deemed invalid. They created further laws that forbid non-Muslims from seeking converts. Anyone was 'free' to convert to Islam. But the conversion from Islam was punishable by death. Many churches were closed or converted to Mosques. The law was used to forbid the building of new churches, and repairs on existing churches was severely curtailed. Thus the 'tolerance's you speak of is relative. Conversion to Islam meant that one would gain equality before the law, and not have to pay the special tax.

"The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eight to nine centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim's community's social behavior toward dhimmis."
http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_history_dhimmitude.php

Muhammad personally lead armies into battle. He ordered the execution of PoWs. He ordered political enemies to be killed.

He had letters sent to all the major cities warning them that he was on his way to defeat them, unless they submitted, that is, became Mohammedans.
http://www.san.beck.org/AB13-MuhammadandIslam.html
 
Squawker said:
Try to ignore the Champs off color comments. He tends to get his shorts in a wad quite often when he is on the losing end of a debate. Happens a lot, don't it Champ

Thanks. :mrgreen:
 
Footy calls

wim00 said:
Montalban. This by an expert too ...
I wont/cant do battle with you on hadiths. It was a while back when I was 'seeking' and I was drawn to the Shia's as the purest form of Islam despite it being the minority view. I know that is familiar to you in your Orthodox/Catholic role.
I find Shi'a ruling on Mu'ta to be more Islamic; because it was never abrogated by Koranic verse.
wim00 said:
Apologies over the fighting men issue - 4am rather than dishonesty. And I cant supply a rational reason for the slaughter of all males over the age of puberty.
Thank you for your comments. I believe Muhammad suspected this tribe - they had themselves (this is my conjecture) realised that they had let Muhammad become too powerful - only he struck first. This in no way justifies his actions - though in Machiavellian terms, he'd get full marks. He actually then forced one of these women to become his wife; after she'd just witness the killing of all her male kin-folk!
wim00 said:
I think the essential difference here is that you already have found your faith, and therefore have much invested in discrediting any others that may threaten you and that is in a nutshell what this post is about.
Not at all. Indeed I have found faith within Orthodox Christianity, but I recognise the bad Orthodox people; such as those of the Russian church who collaborated with the Soviet regime. HOWEVER these people are not my "Christ". Muhammad is the example of Muslim behaviour for all time.
A- Muslims regard Muhammad the best example of man.

Muslims believe that Muhammad is the ideal man - an example for all time (hence that is why Allah chose him - because he was a cut above the rest)

"The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known."
http://www.daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm

"The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;"
http://www.missionislam.com/youth/muhammad.htm



I know for instance that King John of England married a young teen (she was, from memory, either 11 or 13). But again, the difference is that no one says that King John's behaviour is an 'ideal'.


Recently here in Australia a Muslim cleric stated that women deserve to be raped if they dress 'provocatively' (and he includes 'jeans' in this category)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005868.php

A local Muslim spokesman Keyser Trad spoke out in condemnation of this cleric, saying that here in Australia we are a pluralistic and liberal society and that he should be more tolerant. So, credit to Mr Trad. HOWEVER Mr Trad lost his position BECAUSE of these comments. He was condemned by the local Islamic Council and removed from his post.

By the way, it's 1:40 in the afternoon here and I should be watching the footy, instead of arguing with you. Shame on you! 8)
 
"wim00 had used as a rule the year 1000 in order to measure which religion was favoured by God".

I didnt really say that now (I've no idea what time it is with with you :)) I happen to believe that they are all from God but didnt mention it at the time. No one better than another, but some more appropriate for the time and place.

The point about my rather sweeping statement about the condition of Europe and the rise of Islam at that time is that it was because of an outpouring of spiritual energy from God in his nascent religion. Subsequent declines may be attributed to schisms or corruptions as well they may be in Christianity.
 
wim00 said:
The point about my rather sweeping statement about the condition of Europe and the rise of Islam at that time is that it was because of an outpouring of spiritual energy from God in his nascent religion. Subsequent declines may be attributed to schisms or corruptions as well they may be in Christianity.

The point about the sweeping statement on Europe is that it wasn't about EUROPE, but western Europe - you simply took a western perspective (it's aking to talking about 'the Civil War' and its taken as read that you're talking about the 'American Civil War') Some things are just assumed. And in this case your assumption is incorrect for the reasons I stated about Constantinople being and retaining its European-ness, its Christian-ness, and being a great city.

The idea that God shows favour through military conquest is a novel idea, too.
 
Although I always try to judge Muslims as individuals, I will also say that I find the Qur'an, the Muslim Book of the Covenant... very disturbing.

I am fluent in classical Arabic and have read the Qur'an in its mother language many times. Many in the West accept at face value the current notion that Islam is at root a religion of peace. I offer English speakers two enlightening alternatives to better evaluate this claim:

1) Procure a Qur'an translated into English by Abdullah Yusef Ali. This English translation of the Qur'an is approved and sanctioned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations. To facilitate understanding, the surahs and ayahs of this translation are also heavily annotated by Ali who is an Islamic scholar. At core level the annotations are faithful theologically, but I will note two important caveats. Ali occasionally states that a specific word is in the original Arabic Qur'an when in fact it is not. The other caveat is that Ali oftentimes utilizes an Islamic doctrine known as *al-tiqiya*. Basically, this means that the translator purposefully chooses an English equivalent word that colors a specific Arabic word in the best possible light. A final word of caution... this annotated translation is 1,759 pages and is quite weighty.

2) Procure a copy of the Qur'an translated into English by the British scholar J.M. Rodwell. This translation is not annotated, but its text is more faithful liguistically and contextually to the Arabic Qur'an. This translation of the Qur'an is not sanctioned by Islamic religious scholars because Mr. Rodwell is considered to be kaffir and thus his work is illegitimate. In my opinion, this particular English translation more accurately reflects the original Arabic words and their contextual intent. A friendly warning to those of the Judaic and Christian faiths... be prepared to be highly offended and morally assaulted.

 
Tashah said:
Although I always try to judge Muslims as individuals, I will also say that I find the Qur'an, the Muslim Book of the Covenant... very disturbing.

I am fluent in classical Arabic and have read the Qur'an in its mother language many times. Many in the West accept at face value the current notion that Islam is at root a religion of peace. I offer English speakers two enlightening alternatives to better evaluate this claim:

1) Procure a Qur'an translated into English by Abdullah Yusef Ali. This English translation of the Qur'an is approved and sanctioned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations. To facilitate understanding, the surahs and ayahs of this translation are also heavily annotated by Ali who is an Islamic scholar. At core level the annotations are faithful theologically, but I will note two important caveats. Ali occasionally states that a specific word is in the original Arabic Qur'an when in fact it is not. The other caveat is that Ali oftentimes utilizes an Islamic doctrine known as *al-tiqiya*. Basically, this means that the translator purposefully chooses an English equivalent word that colors a specific Arabic word in the best possible light. A final word of caution... this annotated translation is 1,759 pages and is quite weighty.

2) Procure a copy of the Qur'an translated into English by the British scholar J.M. Rodwell. This translation is not annotated, but its text is more faithful liguistically and contextually to the Arabic Qur'an. This translation of the Qur'an is not sanctioned by Islamic religious scholars because Mr. Rodwell is considered to be kaffir and thus his work is illegitimate. In my opinion, this particular English translation more accurately reflects the original Arabic words and their contextual intent. A friendly warning to those of the Judaic and Christian faiths... be prepared to be highly offended and morally assaulted.

My copy of the Koran is only the Penguin Classics version I purchased about 16 years ago. People have often objected to the fact that I still call it the Koran, and not Qur'an as you do. Creature of habit, I guess.

However I do use the on-line version at
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx
Which itself is quite authentic, and it has the Noble and the Glorious translations in English.

As to 'individuals' I believe like many of all faiths most people aren't really that well-versed in their own faith - and thus I have met many Muslims - my street has several Islamic families - who are very nice people. They do the obligatory prayers, and the fast month, but that's about it.

I studied Islam at university, and was a member of a Muslim student's association... I did believe that Islam was to be my calling. Fortunately for me I read ahead of what people wanted me to know.

However I do believe on can judge the ideology of Islam by what it states about itself; through its holy books, and the professed believers of that faith.
 
Montalban said:
However I do believe on can judge the ideology of Islam by what it states about itself; through its holy books, and the professed believers of that faith.

The very words of the Qur'an together with Hadith commentary reveal that the base theology/ideology of Islam is unequivocal.


Many in the West have unwittingly embraced the politically correct notion that the Saudi Wahabbi form of Islam is an unnecessarily strict interpretation of the Qur'an. However when one reads the Qur'an, it becomes very clear that Wahabbi Islam is nothing more than a faithful interpretation of the words of Allah as rendered by His Prophet Mohammad.


Despite the protestations of many Muslims, Osama bin Laden has not betrayed his faith. In all honesty, he has remained true to the written scripture of the Qur'an and obeyed its teachings. In essence, he has not hijacked Islam and is neither a radical nor an extremist. In simple terms, his words and actions are wholly consistant with the fundamental injunctions and commands of Allah.


 
Tashah said:

In simple terms, his words and actions are wholly consistent with the fundamental injunctions and commands of Allah.

Scary yet true. Illustrates they will try to kill or convert me (and you Tashah)
no matter what we do. (Short of converting or dying). The dirty little secret Americans need to understand is our very freedom threatens their religious choke hold over their people. Access to all points of view is intolerable. They know their women would rather wear shorts than a black tent in the noonday sun.

Free the Arab chicks.
 
Last edited:
teacher said:
Tashah said:

In simple terms, his words and actions are wholly consistent with the fundamental injunctions and commands of Allah.

Scary yet true. Illustrates they will try to kill or convert me (and you Tashah) no matter what we do. .


Funny, I've never had a Muslim try to convert me; that is usually the Christians that do that...
 
shh! said:
teacher said:
Funny, I've never had a Muslim try to convert me; that is usually the Christians that do that...

Muslims act differently depending on whether you're living in 'the House of Islam' or outside of it.

The world is divided into two for them; those bits that are currently controlled by Islam and those bits that they endeavour to convert - i.e. the rest.

There are certain rules in nations where Muslims are minorities, and this is to take the softly-softly approach.

It is also to encourage people to believe that any criticism of Islam is hate-mongering.

There's a number of Islamic sites that actually give such subterfuge the green light - because in Islam the act of turning the world to Al-lah is enough.

Also, as stated, many people are quite ignorant of their own faiths - most people, Christians, Moslems etc just want to get on with their lives; however when they need to, they have within the Koran and Hadith powerful incentive for jihad (which is not 'war', but 'struggle', but can be struggle in the form of 'war').
 
Tashah said:
Despite the protestations of many Muslims, Osama bin Laden has not betrayed his faith. In all honesty, he has remained true to the written scripture of the Qur'an and obeyed its teachings. In essence, he has not hijacked Islam and is neither a radical nor an extremist. In simple terms, his words and actions are wholly consistant with the fundamental injunctions and commands of Allah.
[/FONT]


So basically the "good' muslims are terrorists and the "peaceful" muslims are hypocrites. Is that what you are saying?.


Qur’an 9:68 “Allah has promised the Hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers the Fire of Hell for their abode: Therein shall they dwell. It will suffice them. On them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment, a lasting torment.”


It sure looks like Mo said that too.
 
akyron said:
So basically the "good' muslims are terrorists and the "peaceful" muslims are hypocrites. Is that what you are saying?.


Qur’an 9:68 “Allah has promised the Hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers the Fire of Hell for their abode: Therein shall they dwell. It will suffice them. On them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment, a lasting torment.”


It sure looks like Mo said that too.

To Muslims, they would not see themselves as hypocrites, and therefore would not view this passage as applying to them.

And in the actual context the 'hypocrites' are those who don't believe Islam..Sura 9:64
The hypocrites fear lest a Surah (chapter of the Qur'an) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: "(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allah will bring to light all that you fear."
9: 65
If you ask them (about this), they declare: "We were only talking idly and joking." Say: "Was it at Allah, and His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger () that you were mocking?"
9:66
Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were Mujrimun (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, criminals, etc.).
9:67
The hypocrites, men and women, are from one another, they enjoin (on the people) Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief and polytheism of all kinds and all that Islam has forbidden), and forbid (people) from Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and they close their hands [from giving (spending in Allah's Cause) alms, etc.]. They have forgotten Allah, so He has forgotten them. Verily, the hypocrites are the Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah)
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=9
 
Montalban said:
To Muslims, they would not see themselves as hypocrites, and therefore would not view this passage as applying to them.

And in the actual context the 'hypocrites' are those who don't believe Islam..Sura 9:64


Qur’an 48:11 “The desert Arabs who lagged behind [in fighting] will say to you (Muhammad): ‘We were engaged in (looking after) our flocks and our families.’ We have prepared for them a Blazing Fire!”



What I got out of it was:
The hypocrites were the laggards who didnt didnt kill the unbelievers fast enough to suit him. Maybe he meant both.
 
akyron said:
Qur’an 48:11 “The desert Arabs who lagged behind [in fighting] will say to you (Muhammad): ‘We were engaged in (looking after) our flocks and our families.’ We have prepared for them a Blazing Fire!”



What I got out of it was:
The hypocrites were the laggards who didnt didnt kill the unbelievers fast enough to suit him. Maybe he meant both.

Maybe you were right and I am wrong. I need to know the historical interpretation of it, and I've lost the site that I used to go look these things up. Can't even think what it was called.
 
akyron said:
So basically the "good' muslims are terrorists and the "peaceful" muslims are hypocrites. Is that what you are saying?.

Basically, Osama bin Laden has not in substance violated the overarching theology of the Qur'an as it is currently interpreted by the overwhelming majority of Sunni Wahhabi clerics. This naturally does not apply to all Muslims because not all Muslims are Sunni, and then again not all Sunni Muslims adhere to the Saudi Wahhabi doctrine.

The Qur'an (Recital) was meant to be an interpretive work, thus making Islam (Submission) a religion that could adapt to modernity. The rubicon is that the intrinsic freedom to interpret Qur'anic intent was abolished by Islamic clerical fiat [Syrian Caliphate] many centuries ago. In essence, this fiat has relegated Wahhabi Islam to an archaic and moribund stasis... unable and unwilling to adapt to modernity and non-tribal moral values.

For the vast proportion of Muslims worldwide, it is the local clerical interpretation of the Qur'an rather than its written corpus in toto... that defines Islam.

 
Tashah said:

Basically, Osama bin Laden has not in substance violated the overarching theology of the Qur'an as it is currently interpreted by the overwhelming majority of Sunni Wahhabi clerics. This naturally does not apply to all Muslims because not all Muslims are Sunni, and then again not all Sunni Muslims adhere to the Saudi Wahhabi doctrine.

The Qur'an (Recital) was meant to be an interpretive work, thus making Islam (Submission) a religion that could adapt to modernity. The rubicon is that the intrinsic freedom to interpret Qur'anic intent was abolished by Islamic clerical fiat [Syrian Caliphate] many centuries ago. In essence, this fiat has relegated Wahhabi Islam to an archaic and moribund stasis... unable and unwilling to adapt to modernity and non-tribal moral values.

For the vast proportion of Muslims worldwide, it is the local clerical interpretation of the Qur'an rather than its written corpus in toto... that defines Islam.


What bugs me is Islamic apologists in the West who say that in the Koran there's no support for 'suicide bombers' because suicide is forbidden in Islam; however these people are not committing suicide, but are acting as martyrs when they blow themselves up and others for their faith... and this is given much support in Islam - which is very vague about who's going to get into heaven, but leaves no doubt that the person who dies for Islam will get to heaven
 

The Qur'an does indeed forbid suicide. However, this suicide injunction *does not* apply to a shaheed (martyr) engaged in religious jihad against Dar al-Harb (The House of War or non-Muslims). In fact, the Qur'an states that a shaheed is guaranteed a very high place in heaven... an automatic status that is not bestowed on any other member of the Muslim faith no matter how piously they have lived their life.


 
Tashah said:

The Qur'an does indeed forbid suicide. However, this suicide injunction *does not* apply to a shaheed (martyr) engaged in religious jihad against Dar al-Harb (The House of War or non-Muslims). In fact, the Qur'an states that a shaheed is guaranteed a very high place in heaven... an automatic status that is not bestowed on any other member of the Muslim faith no matter how piously they have lived their life.


I have to agree; because I believe that's what I sated in the post above yours :)

However the 'media' continues to use this term 'suicide bomber' and thus make a present to Muslim apologists.
 
Montalban said:
However the 'media' continues to use this term 'suicide bomber' and thus make a present to Muslim apologists.

A *suicide bomber* is a murderer... just as wicked and vulgar as a car bomber or those who hijack airplanes to crash into buildings.

I believe most Iraqi civilians would now agree with Israelis on the above.


 
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