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I like Muslims

Gamago25

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Just not the fanatical "let me bomb 100 innocent children cause your the infidel" ones


same goes with other religious extremists.



:mrgreen:
 

Gandhi>Bush

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:smash: Moderator Gavel

Why are you posting these things? You have another thread that is equally without a point in the Abortion section. Make sure that when you start a thread that you include an argument. Thank you. :2razz:
 

wim00

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Yep, a clear troll mod! Well spotted. I would like to say however that I do like Muslims. I have found during my extensive travels that the ordinary every day Muslim is a pretty decent person. The number of times I have been shown hospitality and generosity of spirit in muslim countries far exceeds that of others.
Here in the UK I have many Muslim neigbours who I have found to be decent, very well educated, honest and generous. It angers me greatly that the actions of a few are being used by the media to demonise the followers of an entire religion for such shallow reasons.
 

shh!

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I like Muslims, too. (At least, the ones I know.) And I am Jewish. I have a Muslim man come to my home for Seder every year. He is probably the most intelligent guest we have. Handsome, too. :)

I also like the more progressive form of Islam as a religion. It is similar in many ways to Judaism. In fact, in my observation, it is more similar than Christianity.

Yes, I think it is rather sad that the fundamentalists of all religions get the most publicity, and so the rest of their spiritual kinsmen are judged by fundamentalist actions. The Muslims have their terrorists, the Jews have their settlers, and the Christians certainly have their share of nuts.
 

walrus

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Every group on Earth is (usually negatively) coloured by the actions of it's most extreme members. The muslims, at this point in history, just happen to have more extremists commiting far more extreme actions than most other groups. This is not an indictment of Islam, it is simply that Islam (or any religion) is easily used by those in power to motivate their followers.

With that said...

I like Chinese
They only come up to your knees
They're cute and they're cuddly and ready to please
I like Chinese
 

Montalban

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walrus said:
Every group on Earth is (usually negatively) coloured by the actions of it's most extreme members. The muslims, at this point in history, just happen to have more extremists commiting far more extreme actions than most other groups. This is not an indictment of Islam, it is simply that Islam (or any religion) is easily used by those in power to motivate their followers.
This is an indictment of Islam, if that is what Islam teaches. It does, and therfore the excpetional 'good' behaviour of many Muslims is not an indication of the 'faith' of Islam at all.

Muhammed, whom most Muslims agree is their best example FOR ALL TIME had a number of faults that are quite abhorrent.

a) he over-saw the execution of 900 PoWs
b) he had sex with a nine year old girl
c) he ordered his followers to assassinate political opponents.
etc

The fact that some Muslims follow this example is an indicator of the rotten-core of Islam.

walrus said:
With that said...

I like Chinese
They only come up to your knees
They're cute and they're cuddly and ready to please
I like Chinese
I like traffic-lights, I like traffic-lights, I like traffic-lights.
 

wim00

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The above is typical of a certain type of ill-informed ignorance. Only lately have the (mostly American media) been demonising the Muslims, the latest media created hate-group. Can't you live without hating someone so that you can ignore your own faults? (Or use as an excuse for exterminating others in order to steal their resources). Take the beam out of your own eye ..... or read the Beatitudes (most unpopular I know in the USA - it makes most choke, far more palatable is the smiting down of heathens which can be attributed to anyone other than themselves when applied with enough self deception).

I am not a Muslim and I don't think will ever be, but your lies about their faith combined with your ignorance I find totally sickening. The hadiths I have seen quoted elsewhere on this board are inaccurate in my opinion and seized upon by the ignorant in an 'I told you so, this justifies my hate' fashion.

You know nothing of the life and times of the Prophet and the conditions in the Arabian Peninsular at that time.

If their faith was not of God, how was their region elevated from the most terrible place on earth to the very finest after following the commandments of Mohammed in such a short period of time? In 1000AD, Baghdad was the most civilised city in the world with public universities, schools, hospitals, street lighting and sewerage - here in Europe we were in the Dark Ages - way behind.

If the Muslim faith is not of God then none of them are. You are only one of 24,000 divisions of Christianity - what makes you so dammed sure that you have sole possesion of the truth and have the right to malign another faith - I am sure you would be pretty outraged if the founders of your faith were so maligned. Outrageous and dreadful behaviour and designed to inflame and spread hate.

(They are all one with those with eyes to see).


There are tomes of literature reporting such so why not read some unpolluted with the hate that so evidently fills your heart. God created all so how dare you accuse him of creating trash! Do some reading - these are fine people. Just as good as us - God made us all - stop hating.

Wow - thats got it off my chest.
 

nkgupta80

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well said wim00
 

shh!

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Montalban said:
This is an indictment of Islam, if that is what Islam teaches. It does, and therfore the excpetional 'good' behaviour of many Muslims is not an indication of the 'faith' of Islam at all.

Muhammed, whom most Muslims agree is their best example FOR ALL TIME had a number of faults that are quite abhorrent.

a) he over-saw the execution of 900 PoWs
b) he had sex with a nine year old girl
c) he ordered his followers to assassinate political opponents.
etc

The fact that some Muslims follow this example is an indicator of the rotten-core of Islam.

I like traffic-lights, I like traffic-lights, I like traffic-lights.

You know, the Hebrew/Christian bible is chock full of vile behaviors, too, but I don't see you mentioning them as an excuse to vilify followers of those faiths. (Let me think: incest, rape, genocide, slavery, attempted murder in addition to actual murder, the list goes on...) Let's not pretend Christians hold a monopoly on good behavior. Weren't they responsible for the Crusades and plenty of other barbaric acts?
 

Montalban

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wim00 said:
The above is typical of a certain type of ill-informed ignorance
I am not a Muslim and I don't think will ever be, but your lies about their faith combined with your ignorance I find totally sickening. The hadiths I have seen quoted elsewhere on this board are inaccurate in my opinion and seized upon by the ignorant in an 'I told you so, this justifies my hate' fashion.

You know nothing of the life and times of the Prophet and the conditions in the Arabian Peninsular at that time.
The statement that Muhammed slept with a nine year old girl is drawn from Islamic sources; the Hadith. You show yourself to be one who is completley ignorant of Islamic faith.
From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah's Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud's Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

"The Prophet consummated his marriage with A'isha when she was nine and this was considered the age of consent for a long time."
http://www.hraic.org/women_in_islam.html
also at
http://www.amcoptic.com/read_for_u/women_and_islam.htm



“3 – ‘Aa’ishah bint Abi Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with her)



The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her in Shawwaal of the tenth year of the Prophethood. Ibn Sa’d, 8/58-59. She herself said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3894; Muslim, 1422. Al-Bukhaari (5077) also narrated that the Messenger of Allaah (S) (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry any virgin apart form her.”

http://63.175.194.25//ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=47072&dgn=4



I also stated that he ordered the killing of PoWs. Here are some Islamic, and non-Islamic sources.

"And He has caused to descend from their strongholds the Jews that assisted them. And he struck terror into their hearts. Some you slaughtered and some you took prisoner"

Sura 32.25



"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina."

(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)



Surah Muhammad

47.4 So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,

http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=47



"The members of the last surviving Jewish tribe in Medinah, Banu Qurayzah, were even less fortunate. Muhammad offered the men conversion to Islam as an alternative to death; upon their refusal, all 900 were decapitated in front of their enslaved women and children. The women were subsequently raped; Muhammad chose as his concubine one Raihana Bint Amr, whose father and husband were both slaughtered before her eyes only hours earlier."

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/February1999/0299Trifkovic.htm



There were, in the time of Muhammad, Arab tribes that were Christian. Some were pagan, and some were Jewish. One such Jewish tribe, the Banu Quarayza helped Muhammad in battle. However, "their loyalty was questioned and inevitably, after the siege, Muhammad moved against them. Realizing that they had no chance of surviving, the Banu Quarayza agreed to surrender on condition that they quit Medina empty-handed. Muhammad refused and wanted nothing less than unconditional surrender. The Jews then appealed to their ancient friendship with the Banu Aws and asked that Abuy Lubaba, an ally belonging to that tribe, be allowed to visit them. He was asked what Muhammad's intentions were; by way of reply Abu Lubaba drew his hand across his throat, indicating that they must fight to the end, as death was all that they could hope for. At last, after several weeks, the Jews surrendered on condition that their fate should be decided by their allies, the Banu Aws. The latter were inclined to show mercy but Muhammad decided that the fate of the Jews was to be decided by on of the Banu Aws. Muhammad nominated Sa'd ibn Muadh to be the judge...He pronounced, "My judgement is that the men shall be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, and the spoil divided among the army." Muhammad adopted the verdict as his own: "Truly the judgment of Sad is the judgment of God pronounced on high from beyond the seventh heaven."

During the night trenches sufficient to contain the dead bodies of the men were dug across the market place...In the morning, (Muhammad), himself a spectator of the tragedy, commanded the male captives to be brought forth in companies of five or six at a time. Each company as it came up was made to sit down in a row on the brink of the trench... The butchery began in the morning, and lasted all day...(Muhammad) returned from this horrid spectacle to solace himself with the charms of Rihana, who's husband and all of her make relatives had just perished in the massacre"*

"And yes, a revelation came down from heaven justifying the stern punishment meted out to the Jews: sura 32.25 (see above)



*Muir, Sir W (1923) "The Life of Muhammad", p240 quoted in:

Ibn Warraq (1995) "Why I am Not a Muslim", pp95-96.



All the males of the tribe were asked to show their pubic region. Those who had not developed pubic hair were considered children and were not killed. All in all - at a most conservative figure - some 900 prisoners-of-war were put to death at that instance.



Now Sa'd Ibn Mu'ath (RA) delivered his judgment: "I enjoin that all the men of Banu Quraithah be put to death and their wives and children be treated like prisoners of war while their wealth and properties be divided among the Muslims." Following this judgment Banu Quraithah were ordered to come out of the fort and they were all brought to Al-Madinah in custody. At last, following the judgment, their men were killed and their dwellings were given to the Muslims.

From: The History of Islam, Vol.1

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/readArt.php?id=37137&lang=E

wim00 said:
f their faith was not of God, how was their region elevated from the most terrible place on earth to the very finest after following the commandments of Mohammed in such a short period of time? In 1000AD, Baghdad was the most civilised city in the world with public universities, schools, hospitals, street lighting and sewerage - here in Europe we were in the Dark Ages - way behind.
This is true, only if you ignore the city of Constantinople. Sorry, no points.

You certainly sound like a Muslim. If only you were able to construct an argument based on facts rather than a 'no it's not' statement.
 

Montalban

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shh! said:
You know, the Hebrew/Christian bible is chock full of vile behaviors, too, but I don't see you mentioning them as an excuse to vilify followers of those faiths. (Let me think: incest, rape, genocide, slavery, attempted murder in addition to actual murder, the list goes on...) Let's not pretend Christians hold a monopoly on good behavior. Weren't they responsible for the Crusades and plenty of other barbaric acts?
I'm amazed at this stock-standard statement. Are you saying these behaviours are abhorrent, or not. If they are, and they did happen, then it's not vilification any more than a documentary on the holocaust is a vilification of the Nazis.

Secondly, you've not debated whether what I said about Islam is true. You're posing the "If they did something bad, other people have done bad things too" argument which would in no way negate the bad things done (as illustrated in my posts)

Thirdly, you seem to think that one can judge a religion not by what it claims for its followers, but what individuals within that faith do. This is so illogical and absurd. Else, show me the teachings of Christ that inspired the Crusades.
I can show you the teachings of Muhammad that inspire terror.
"As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:8 )
"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)
"The believers who stay at home (apart from those that suffer a grave impediment) are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)
"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammad) said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:52:73)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted; he is an infidel.'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 32)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'Then go to the persons who do not join the congregational prayer and order their homes to be burnt...'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 234)
"Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 9:83:17)
"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)
"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)



Now that's just a 'sample'.

I stated earlier that Muhammed slept with a nine year old girl. I have quoted from the Hadiths to back this statement up. I could be accused of 'quote mining'. However I can also give you quotes from modern Islamic advice sites that encouarges this behaviour, AND these are just the sites I'm able to access in English....

It is important for you, in your situation, to consider the age difference reservation expressed by your wife.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai"
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6737
The Appropriate Age for Marriage
http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html
A parents duty towards a young child who is to be married
http://www.islam.tc/social_conduct/social_conduct_of_a_muslim.html
Advice about marrying a nine year old girl
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR
Marriage: No concern about age
http://63.175.194.25//ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1493&dgn=4

If you can reply with 'facts' rather than a few 'just so' statements, it would be greatly appreciated.
 

Tashah

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I am Israeli and have traveled to many Muslim countries. I have found that one simply cannot paint an individual using the broad brush of religion. People are far more complex than that. Regardless of whether one worships in a synagogue, church, or mosque... the ultimate arbiter of true character will be found in their thoughts, words, and deeds.


 

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Tashah said:

I am Israeli and have traveled to many Muslim countries. I have found that one simply cannot paint an individual using the broad brush of religion. People are far more complex than that. Regardless of whether one worships in a synagogue, church, or mosque... the ultimate arbiter of true character will be found in their thoughts, words, and deeds.
THANK YOU for your simple and wise post! Daffy Duck is simply a racist who twists words to fit his demented purpose.

It does not seem to me to be a stretch to say that there are good and bad people in all corners of the world, and to condemn a group in total is the epitome of stupidity, and Daffy is the poster child example of this ignorance...
 

wim00

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Montabalan, I am well aware of these hadiths, their 'reporters', and the degree of authenticity accorded to each. The ability to cut and paste is not a substitute for getting at the truth or being fair minded. I would suggest speaking to Muslims and reading history written by all sides rather than the cherry picking method you prefer.

The age of Aisha is disputed and after over 1300 years neither of us can prove anything. Children were married off earlier and often gave birth as soon as they were able ..... again look at the conditions of the times, if the clan didn't keep the head count up they would perish.

I did not dispute the massacre but you ignore the folly of releasing fighting men who will regroup and attack you. It was over ten years ago when I was reading about Islam and my understanding is that there was treason in the Banu Quarayza camp. There were no POW camps at the time nor Geneva Conventions. Perhaps you can do the research for me and post the counter arguments. I think it would be a valuable excersise for you.

One city does not dispove the thrust of what I was saying. (& 'points' be damned btw). If you were being fair, and presuming you do know your history, you will readily see that I only scratched the surface concerning the miraculous transformation that took place.

You certainly sound dishonest, constructing an argument on only the facts that you think will portray Muslims in a bad light.
 

shh!

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Montalban said:
I'm amazed at this stock-standard statement. Are you saying these behaviours are abhorrent, or not. If they are, and they did happen, then it's not vilification any more than a documentary on the holocaust is a vilification of the Nazis.

Secondly, you've not debated whether what I said about Islam is true. You're posing the "If they did something bad, other people have done bad things too" argument which would in no way negate the bad things done (as illustrated in my posts).
Yeah, the behavior of (compartively few) Muslims IS abhorrant. I just am not inclined to indict a whole religion based on a few bad apples.


Montalban said:
Thirdly, you seem to think that one can judge a religion not by what it claims for its followers, but what individuals within that faith do. .
Yes, well it is certainly true that I judge people based much more so on their behaviors rather than their beliefs (so long as they do not infringe their beliefs on me, anyway).

Montalban said:
show me the teachings of Christ that inspired the Crusades. I can show you the teachings of Muhammad that inspire terror.
If you can reply with 'facts' rather than a few 'just so' statements, it would be greatly appreciated.
To be honest, the above is the only portion of what to posted that I read. I HATE when people can't make a good argument without posting scripture, because we all know "the devil can quote scripture for his own purpose", so I won't be going down THAT road with you.

By the way, I know that there are many bits of Islamic scripture that require tolerance, respect and kindness towards Christians and Jews. I assume you didn't post any, though.
 
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Montalban:

Like wim00 said, Islam transformed these peoples' once pitiful rivaling "states" into a bustling cohesive empire. And if what you and your say about Muhummad's evil intolerant ways is what the Koran's really about, then why were these great Islam-based empires considered to be the most tolerant and progressive of the time? Cities like Baghdad, Damascus, and Cordoba were common places where you could find Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together peacefully. Muslim scholars, for hundreds of years, preserved and learned from the pagan literature of the greeks and romans.

Constantinople, by the way, wasnt considered part of the European Christian conglomerate since the Roman Catholic Church had excommunicated the church in Constantinople, and culturally the city was more open with its Islamic neighbors rather than its Christian ones.
 

Montalban

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Tashah said:

I am Israeli and have traveled to many Muslim countries. I have found that one simply cannot paint an individual using the broad brush of religion. People are far more complex than that. Regardless of whether one worships in a synagogue, church, or mosque... the ultimate arbiter of true character will be found in their thoughts, words, and deeds.
Indeed. I am not judging all "Muslims" but I am judging Islam. I believe many many Muslims are good people in spite of their religion.

I can judge Islam as a faith, by the statements of that faith, and of people who are 'experts' in that faith; in this case I have tendered evidence from Islamic expert sites.

Ignoring that small fact is rather pointless. It is akin to me condeming you if you judge Nazism to be abhorrent. I could argue that there are singluar good examples of "Nazis" such as Oskar Schindler, who was a Nazi Party member and yet an all-round nice fella; saving more than 1,000 Jews. I would say that you must ignore the teachings of Nazism because it does not equate to how this individual acted. In fact I'm sure not all members of the Nazi party actually took part in the killings of Jews.

That is the position you take here now with Islam. It is an attempt to judge the whole by exceptions.
 

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wim00 said:
Montabalan (sic), I am well aware of these hadiths, their 'reporters', and the degree of authenticity accorded to each. The ability to cut and paste is not a substitute for getting at the truth or being fair minded. I would suggest speaking to Muslims and reading history written by all sides rather than the cherry picking method you prefer.
You are in effect saying that I should consult the Muslims that give a favourable picture of Islam; because I have already cited Islamic expert sites that support my stance. I believe you know fully well that the Hadith, these Hadith in particular are well relied upon by Moslems BECAUSE of their accuracy; there's a whole 'science of Hadith' that they attach to the study of Hadiths to prove this authenticity.
B-The Haddiths though not perfect, are second to the Koran for sources of instruction for Muslims
"The Holy Qur'an :The most sacred book and the primary source of legislation.
Hadith : The second source of legislation."
http://www.al-islam.com/

"The Sunnah is the example set by Muhammad in all aspects of life, from spiritual to mundane. The Hadith are the stories and narrations of the Sunnah as told by various individuals who were close to Muhammad. The majority of Muslims regard the Hadith as equal in importance with the Quran"
http://www.knowislam.info/hadithsunnah.html

"The Sunnah is the example set by Muhammad in all aspects of life, from spiritual to mundane. The Hadith are the stories and narrations of the Sunnah as told by various individuals who were close to Muhammad. The majority of Muslims regard the Hadith as equal in importance with the Quran"

http://www.knowislam.info/hadithsunnah.html

Some might say that the Haddiths are not perfect, but that's only when compared with the Koran... "The point is not that Hadith is an unreliable source of information. On the contrary, Hadith lacks the level of reliability which is entailed in the basic sources of the Shari`ah. In other words, it is only when compared to the Qur'an and the Sunnah that Hadith seems wanting in reliability. Nevertheless, if one were to compare Hadith with, for instance, sources of other histories, it would easily surpass the reliability of the sources of other histories on all accounts. This is only due to the strenuous work done by the scholars of Hadith in this field of study."

http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=319&sscatid=69

The Hadiths I cited are strong hadiths. They are recognised as authorities by Muslims...

Q: Aalim has proved thru his research that Aisha’s (Rad.) age was not 9 at the time of her marriage, she was 19. one of the Raavi, due to weak memory started giving false hadith

1. If you made a mistake while performing the missed Rakaats, then you must compensate for that by making Sajdah-e-Sahw.

2. It is advisable to make Mashwara (consult) and/or make Istikhaara in all major issues even if one is confident. Our knowledge and insight is limited. The guidance of Allah Ta’ala is perfect and absolute.

3. Hadhrat Aaisha (Radhiallaahu Anha) was married at the age of six. The Ahaadith pertaining to this are in Bukhari and Muslim, all the narrators of these Ahaadith are authentic.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6778

wim00 said:
The age of Aisha is disputed and after over 1300 years neither of us can prove anything. Children were married off earlier and often gave birth as soon as they were able ..... again look at the conditions of the times, if the clan didn't keep the head count up they would perish.
The fact that Aisha's age is disputed by some does not equate to the fact that she was nine. You are attempting to disprove the rule by the exceptions. It's akin to a reporter claiming that there was 'dissent' in parliament because only 99% of people agreed with a proposition.
Further, this is not a case of what people believed, way back then, Muslim sites are still giving advice based on the example of the Prophet
Question: Is it possible to have intercourse with girls before puberty, would not this physically and mentally harmful to the girl. Is such a thing permissible in Islam, and if it is permissible then what is the minimum age for marriage execution in Islam, since puberty is not a requirement.

Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Jurists discussed the issue of marrying a girl before puberty, i.e. a girl who might not be able to have sexual intercourse due to her young age.

They agreed that the Wali can marry a girl before puberty. But when she reaches puberty, she has the right to choose either to nullify the marriage contract or to continue her marital life.

Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, married `Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, before she reached the age of puberty.

Hence, we conclude that puberty is not a condition for executing marriage. The only condition is the wife’s ability to bear responsibilities of marital life. However, we do not recommend marriage before puberty because at that early age the girl can’t fulfil her obligations towards her husband properly, nor can she know her rights towards him.

Thus, to avoid any negligence or liability on her part we do not recommend marriage at such an early age.

Allah Almighty knows best.

Dr. Su`aad Ibrahim Salih

http://www.islam-online.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=YFCeOS
wim00 said:
I did not dispute the massacre but you ignore the folly of releasing fighting men who will regroup and attack you. It was over ten years ago when I was reading about Islam and my understanding is that there was treason in the Banu Quarayza camp. There were no POW camps at the time nor Geneva Conventions. Perhaps you can do the research for me and post the counter arguments. I think it would be a valuable excersise for you.
A few facts seem to have escaped you. Firstly the 'treachery' of that tribe was that they did not aid Muhammad materially in battle. They always had done so in the past. They weren't at war with Muhammad. Muhammad suspected them and it is because of this that he over-saw the killing of all the males aged above puberty - you seem to suggest that they were all soldiers or 'fighting men'.
wim00 said:
One city does not disprove the thrust of what I was saying. (& 'points' be damned btw). If you were being fair, and presuming you do know your history, you will readily see that I only scratched the surface concerning the miraculous transformation that took place.
You seem to argue that singular exceptions prove rules. I can equally name a number of Roman (Byzantine) cities. You seemed to think that because the west was in 'the Dark Ages' this amounted to ALL Europe - again an 'part' for you equals the 'whole'.
wim00 said:
You certainly sound dishonest, constructing an argument on only the facts that you think will portray Muslims in a bad light.
Ah, a wee bit of projecting! You mean by citing Islamic sources as facts I am dishonest. What about your twist of 'fighting men' instead of EVERY MALE who had reached puberty - that includes the sick, the old, and males who were only just on the pathway to manhood.
Here's some more good Islamic advice...
The Appropriate Age for Marriage
Question: What is the appropriate age for men and women to marry? Some of the young ladies of today do not accept to be married to men older than them and also some of the men do not get married from anyone older than them either. We hope for a response, may Allah reward you.
Response: I advise the young ladies not to refuse a man because of his older age. Even if he be ten, twenty or thirty years older, this is not a valid excuse. The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Aisha when he was fifty-three years old and she was nine years old. Older age is not harmful.
http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html
 

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Montalban said:
I'm amazed at this stock-standard statement. Are you saying these behaviours are abhorrent, or not. If they are, and they did happen, then it's not vilification any more than a documentary on the holocaust is a vilification of the Nazis.
Secondly, you've not debated whether what I said about Islam is true. You're posing the "If they did something bad, other people have done bad things too" argument which would in no way negate the bad things done (as illustrated in my posts).
shh! said:
Yeah, the behavior of (comparatively few) Muslims IS abhorrent. I just am not inclined to indict a whole religion based on a few bad apples.
See my analogy about Nazism in posts above.
Montalban said:
show me the teachings of Christ that inspired the Crusades. I can show you the teachings of Muhammad that inspire terror.
If you can reply with 'facts' rather than a few 'just so' statements, it would be greatly appreciated.
Shh! said:
To be honest, the above is the only portion of what to posted that I read. I HATE when people can't make a good argument without posting scripture, because we all know "the devil can quote scripture for his own purpose", so I won't be going down THAT road with you.
So in effect you're saying you're going to offer NO PROOFS to support your argument about Christianity and the Crusades. Wow!
Shh! said:
By the way, I know that there are many bits of Islamic scripture that require tolerance, respect and kindness towards Christians and Jews. I assume you didn't post any, though.
The fact that there are verses of 'tolerence' there means nothing when you consider that they were abrogated by the verses that incite hate.
Thus Sura 2:109
Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers.... Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command
is contradicted by
Sura 9:29
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah.

When such 'contradictions' occur, Muslims believe that the most recent Sura abrogates, (or supersedes) the earlier statement.

When Muhammad began his career, and he didn't have much power, he was all for tolerating other people's beliefs. Then after acquiring control of Medina, his verses become more and more belligerent. When he waged war on Mecca, he gave verses supporting holy war.
 

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I think you are spreading hatred against it and thereby its adherents, causing further emnity in the world 'in spite of' your religon. The fact that you have tendered 'selected' evidence from expert sites says it all, indeed rendering debate with you rather pointless.

Your last comment is choice "... attempt to judge the whole by exceptions". Totally about face.
 

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wim00 said:
I think you are spreading hatred against it and thereby its adherents, causing further emnity in the world 'in spite of' your religon. The fact that you have tendered 'selected' evidence from expert sites says it all, indeed rendering debate with you rather pointless.

Your last comment is choice "... attempt to judge the whole by exceptions". Totally about face.
And we wonder why ordinary Muslims feel threatened by the Christian world.
I'd be scared, too.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
Constantinople, by the way, wasn't considered part of the European Christian conglomerate since the Roman Catholic Church had excommunicated the church in Constantinople, and culturally the city was more open with its Islamic neighbors rather than its Christian ones.
I am aware of eastern history; I am an Orthodox Christian.
wim00 had used as a rule the year 1000 in order to measure which religion was favoured by God.
He said
wim00 said:
If their faith was not of God, how was their region elevated from the most terrible place on earth to the very finest after following the commandments of Mohammed in such a short period of time? In 1000AD, Baghdad was the most civilised city in the world with public universities, schools, hospitals, street lighting and sewerage - here in Europe we were in the Dark Ages - way behind.
Firstly, there was no formal and final schism between the two churches until after this date. Further Constantinople was part of the continuance of the Roman Empire, it was European. He said that at that particular date Baghdad was the most civilised city IN THE WHOLE WORLD and that EUROPE (as a whole; because he doesn't specify only Western Europe) was in the DARK AGES. At that time.

You are wrong about the date, your bias about the 'excommunication' is itself western; it suggests that the Roman church expelled us, or that we broke away from them. Wim00 can be argued over his use of the term 'most civilised', but he is wrong with regards all of Europe. Constantinople was still a Christian city at that time.

You state that it wasn't considered a part of Europe - by whom? The Roman Empire continued until the year 1453. Constantine himself created Constantinople, which is a city of seven hills, which he called the "New Rome". The Empire was divided and the western half fell, but the eastern continued for more than 1,000 years. Justinian, who ruled from the east compiled the "Digest of Roman Laws" because he was a Roman Emperor. Historians have sometimes referred to this empire as "Byzantine", however the empire was Roman. Here's what Anna Comnena says at the begging of her biography about her father Aleixus.
"The Emperor Alexius, my father, even before he seized the throne had been of great service to the Roman Empire"
Anna Comnena, "The Alexiad", Penguin Classics, p31. This is written about Alexius who ruled 1081-1118AD. He is a Roman Emperor, and he considered his empire a continuation of the Roman Empire. He lived in a city that is in Europe, and it was Chrisitan.
 

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wim00 said:
I think you are spreading hatred against it and thereby its adherents, causing further emnity in the world 'in spite of' your religon. The fact that you have tendered 'selected' evidence from expert sites says it all, indeed rendering debate with you rather pointless.
Thanks for another stirring 'just-so' statement.
wim00 said:
Your last comment is choice "... attempt to judge the whole by exceptions". Totally about face.
Ooops, there goes another one.

SO, if I cite Islamic texts that they hold dear, I cite Muslim experts pronouncing on those texts, these are just 'the exception'?

That's really rich. And how do you confront this?

By citing 'just-so' statements, name-calling (re: hatemongering), re-working of history so that the massacre of and including the sick, boys and old men becomes 'warriors' or some such distortion.

Well done.
 

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shh! said:
And we wonder why ordinary Muslims feel threatened by the Christian world.
I'd be scared, too.
Muslims are against criticism of Islam. You see this yourself on this thread where-by any citations of evidence from primary sources backed by secondary AND contemporary sources is simply brushed as 'exceptions'.

And this is the sum of the 'retort'.

:spin:
 

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Muslims and the other peoples

Islam: As well as cultural imperialism (non-Muslims had to pay special taxes, and wear special clothing identifying them as second-class people), slavery, misogyny and racism, there is the stifling of 'free thought' where it is still against the law under Islam to convert from Islam
http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/index.htm

See:
http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm

For Muslim attempts at genocide
See:
http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm
and
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-6.html

Current persecutions of Christians
“Documenting the Persecution of Christians in the Islamic World”
http://www.domini.org/openbook/
and
Voice of the Martyrs
http://www.vom.com.au/
(note this includes persecutions of Christians by non-Muslims)


A much cited Koranic text is 'there shall be no compulsion in religion', however even today several states goverened by Islamic law make it a penalty to change religion from Islam to another (the act of apostasy).
 
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